Author of "American Sniper" among the dead at Rough Creek

Well this is really unfortunate, but taking a man with PTSD to a firing range maybe wasn't such a good idea. I can see the logic behind it, but clearly more sensitivity needed to be used.

On a side note the man's autobiographical book is titled "American Sniper: The Autobiography of the Most Lethal Sniper in U.S. Military History"

What an ego manic.

It seems there was a therapeutic angle after all regarding PTSD sufferer and visits to a gun range:

“We kind of have an idea that maybe that’s why they were at the range for some type of therapy that Mr. Kyle assists people with. And I don’t know if it’s called shooting therapy, I don’t have any idea,” Bryant said.

Lt. Cmdr. Rorke Denver, who served with Kyle on SEAL Team 3 in Iraq in 2006, called Kyle a champion of the modern battlefield.

Denver wasn’t surprised that Kyle apparently used a shooting range to help someone with PTSD. “For us, for warriors, that’s a skill set that has become very familiar, very comfortable for us,” said Denver, a lieutenant commander in a reserve SEAL team. His book “Damn Few,” about training SEALs, will be released this month. “So I actually see it as kind of a perfect use of Chris’ unique skill set and expertise of which he has very few peers.”

link

Originally posted by curious_soul

I've followed this ordeal from the very beginning and i never believed Kyle's story about Ventura,

I dont fully believe Kyle's story about his exploits.
It comes off like propaganda, a marketing tool to get kids to join the military.
Especially considering we have had stories revealed later to be fake: Jessica Lynch, et alia

What goes around, comes around.

Don't feel bad for him one second.

reply to post by Visitor2012


They were dancing in the streets and doin stuff like this, of course it was a minority of Americans. Basically the patriotic brainwashed weirdos.

reply to post by NarrowGate


that is false being mentally ill does not bar you from fire arms ownership being adjucated mentaly defective does but mental illness on its own does not bar people from owning fire arms

you have to either be commuted to an institution against your will via 5150 charges (you can check your self in and not loose rights)
be ruled a threat to your self and others(requires doctors to do this)
or have a suicide attempt on your record
im bi polar axis 2 and i can have weapons and due to my mental illness i had my last dr sign a certified letter of sanity stating that i am of sound body and mind and no threat to my self or others just to insure this right and as i have never been forcibly committed to a mental hospital (ironically i used to work at one) my gun rights are safe and sound for the time being

and as the mentally ill are a protected class of people federally it makes it much harder to try to get laws passed targeting them and only them

and my favorite quote on mental illness from an anonymous poster from NAMI on the issue

To discriminate against someone for what they haven't done, but may do, mentally ill or not sets a dangerous precedent. No one should be denied their guarenteed Constitutional Rights, if they haven't done anything. Not everyone with a mental health issue is violent. Including those people who are diagnosed with PTSD, Bipolar, or Antisocial Personality Disorder. Only if a person has a history of violence, not a single incendent, but a history of violence. This should include everyone, not only the mentally ill. It should include anyone with a history of violence. We can not allow our fears and misunderstandings of a particular section of our population, dictate the Contistional Rights of others. Years ago, something similar was done to the poor, uneducated and those that others deemed to be SLOW. If you were considered to be slow (mentally deficient) or poor and/or uneducated, people in positions of power, could and did with frightning frequency, have them rendered infertal. It was done primarily to women, but it could be done to anyone. So many innocent people were stripped of their ability to have a child, against their will. They hadn't done anything wrong, but socsiety deemed them unfit. To deny anyone their Constitutional Rights because they may, SOME DAY, do something harmful to themselves or to someone else, would be a travisty no matter what the diagnoses. A dianoses of a mental health condition is not a predition of or a forgone conclusion of a violent future. In fact, in many cases (not all)of gun violence, there was no previous history of mental illness. We need to improve our mental health care and provide early intervention for people, with or without a mental health diagnoses

by Anonymous

Sad story.

Not an advocate of banning guns but people who think having a gun keeps you in any way safer -- attackers often don't let you know before they want to attack.

Originally posted by FoosM

Originally posted by curious_soul

I've followed this ordeal from the very beginning and i never believed Kyle's story about Ventura,

I dont fully believe Kyle's story about his exploits.
It comes off like propaganda, a marketing tool to get kids to join the military.
Especially considering we have had stories revealed later to be fake: Jessica Lynch, et alia

We were really lucky to have Jessica Lynch be a stand up person of integrity. If she'd been someone like Ollie North -- well, w'ed never hear the ending of the brave stories - never. Bill O'Reilly still talks about "being under fire" when he was with a press junket he heard gunshots in the distance -- much like everyone in NY City.

Hard to know what is true, when the Pentagon is happy to sell us their product.

Originally posted by Visitor2012

Originally posted by NarrowGate

Originally posted by Meldionne1
He was helping a marine who had PTSD and the marine snapped and shot Chris point blank. And Chris's neighbor who was helping too.

I am not buying the PTSD story in and of itself. No not one bit.

Past that, to all those that say "live by the gun die by the gun", you are misapplying that passage. You can not judge if he was EVER an unjust aggressor, and in war you are justified as long as you follow ROE.

I want to know what REALLY caused this, aside from the generic PTSD story we always get. There is more involved here than simply PTSD.

Any guy who kills over a hundred people in the name of a Lie, brags about it with pride, and reaps financial reward for it, is a scumbag. I don't care who's "team" he's on. I wouldn't want a SINGLE human being to follow in his footsteps.

There doesn't seem to be a way to reverse the amount of PROFOUND stupidity, ignorance and pride these soldiers are operating on. We're talking extreme levels of DE-Education that needs to happen on a massive scale. Both our cops and our military have been indoctrinated into utter insanity under the guise of Pride, Patriotism, Duty and Honor.

Our military, police, and government has turned us into Nazi Germany, and as usual, the hard working and blind citizens, are dragged down with it.

edit on 3-2-2013 by Visitor2012 because: (no reason given)

I don't know how to judge this individual -- but I do respect the intention of some people in the military. I just can't respect fools who haven't figured out yet that we had zero need to invade Afghanistan or Iraq -- so what did we "defend America from"? Expensive poppies?

There's nothing wrong with some pride, some patriotism and duty -- but yeah, this blind worship of this "America whatever" and you don't support the concept of honoring the due process of law, the Geneva conventions, respect for the sovereignty of nations. There is just so much we threw out the window. And while killing approximately 100,000 Iraqis and displacing perhaps 2 million isn't at the "Nazi level" -- the lack of any integrity, the hiring of mercenaries and a torture program while we renditioned kids to contracted nations for the really sick stuff. Clearly put America on the list of "just another damn empire." Our CIA is dirty work boys for multinationals, are US Chamber of Commerce is used to outsource jobs, and our Justice System doesn't work against anyone with real power or wealth.

Maybe we never were as good as we thought we were. Smedley Butler wrote the book "War is a Racket" and the "Manifest Destiny" believers of America mowed down thousands of islanders to make way for low wage exploit. Perhaps we just had that one time in WW II when we were the good guys (for a change) and we followed the rules because our struggle wasn't as desperate as the enemies.

But I don't see much heroic in war -- very rarely. The most heroic thing you can do is die for someone, not shoot them from two miles away with night vision lenses.

Originally posted by neo96
reply to post by yuppa

 

Neo doing your duty is one thing,and I appreciate his service but can you honestly say its a good idea to brag about your kill count?

Like this?

GM is alive and Bin Laden is dead.

We came We Saw Gaddafi Died.

Both totally acceptable and yet Kyle is not.

Hypocritic imo.

edit on 3-2-2013 by neo96 because: (no reason given)

Neo Please quote my entire post because its is needed for context.
PERSONALLY i do not think its good to Brag about ANY of that. The guys who killed bin laden though did they reveal their names while they are still active duty? Bragging is a insult to the families on both sides. All it does is promote hurt feelings.Now if he kept the people nameless Wel then I see no problem about it.

Originally posted by guymontag

Originally posted by lnfideI
What did Kyle do that you think he is scum?

Because he shot so many mooj?

What is mooj? Mujahideen ?

No, I have contempt for anyone that openly brags about killing hundreds of people including women. Also have great contempt for my countrymen that egg it on and cheer for it.

But go on with your troll nonsense, you'll get your stars and the mods will do nothing.

Ding Ding, you win a prize.

You'd feel more like a man if you actually went over there and done something about it, like try stopping him, but no, your more content calling me a troll and whining to the mods.

If I could give you my stars I gladly would in an attempt to keep your eyes dry.

I'm not your friend and I'm not your countryman. And the only thing that makes me feel better than knowing Kyle was popping bad guys/gals is hearing your complain about it.

He was a true American hero. Hats off to him and condolences to his family.

reply to post by RalagaNarHallas


Interesting post. So if you check yourself into a psych ward you don't lose your rights or did I read that wrong? Can a schizophrenic for example still own guns? That would seem dangerous imho, but I am not well versed on the topic.

Originally posted by lacrimaererum
reply to post by NarrowGate

 

Its not called PTSC

It is called PTSD and is an anxiety disorder.

In this unfortunate event the vet killed 2 people.

According to stats as many as 20vets a day are now committing suicide.

You bring up ADHD for comparison. How many more disorders could you bring up?

the population of the US is something like 310 million or thereabouts. Throw a good few million disorders into that mix. Let the general population arm itself with as many weapons as they want. Whatcha think might happen?

The constitution came into effect when the population of the US was around 2.5 million. Modern policing didn't even come into effect until about1838.

So now that there is modern law enforcement and a population that has multiplied by 124times, that would have a large number of its members who might have mental disorders, maybe its time to revisit the idea of allowing the population to arm itself.

Many died protecting our constitution.

You don't "allow" anything. Criminals steal guns. Often from police and military mind you.

ETA: THERE IS MORE THAN PTSD GOING ON HERE. You really buy that sh*t? There could be underlying conditions, and past that there could be circumstances unknown to us.

Why not take him paintballing?

Originally posted by yourmaker
Why not take him paintballing?

You have to kind of relate it to a diver who has to slowly come up when too far into the ocean. If he comes up to fast....well you get the picture.

I am no expert on the subject, but the general idea behind it would imply that real guns and ammo are necessary. And tbh, I don't think we know enough about this to make a judgment call.

Originally posted by Visitor2012

Originally posted by NarrowGate

Originally posted by Meldionne1
He was helping a marine who had PTSD and the marine snapped and shot Chris point blank. And Chris's neighbor who was helping too.

I am not buying the PTSD story in and of itself. No not one bit.

Past that, to all those that say "live by the gun die by the gun", you are misapplying that passage. You can not judge if he was EVER an unjust aggressor, and in war you are justified as long as you follow ROE.

I want to know what REALLY caused this, aside from the generic PTSD story we always get. There is more involved here than simply PTSD.

Any guy who kills over a hundred people in the name of a Lie, brags about it with pride, and reaps financial reward for it, is a scumbag. I don't care who's "team" he's on. I wouldn't want a SINGLE human being to follow in his footsteps.

There doesn't seem to be a way to reverse the amount of PROFOUND stupidity, ignorance and pride these soldiers are operating on. We're talking extreme levels of DE-Education that needs to happen on a massive scale. Both our cops and our military have been indoctrinated into utter insanity under the guise of Pride, Patriotism, Duty and Honor.

Our military, police, and government has turned us into Nazi Germany, and as usual, the hard working and blind citizens, are dragged down with it.

edit on 3-2-2013 by Visitor2012 because: (no reason given)

You don't know how good you have it, and how much blood was shed so you could have it this good. You really think you know something? Do you have any idea the battle we are fighting in the war on terror? This is literally good vs evil. The gray area comes in often though, because much of it is fought through proxies that are not clear good vs evil.

I love our service members. I do not feel in the least that they should not be patriotic with a sense of duty and honor. You have no idea what they actually go through to keep you safe. They make money for the corporations on the side, but they do still protect you friend. Quite well I might add.

To compare us to Nazi Germany is completely childish. You need to go read up on Nazi Germany...

reply to post by NarrowGate


i am unaware of any law that would prohibit them from not owning guns as a schizophrenic but i would assume that those who have these are not the type to frequent gun stores and attempt to buy weapons,the only ones i know do not own weapons by a personal choice they have maide.

on the checking your self in part well its true but there are some obious exceptions to the rule.for example if you check your self in to try to get your mental health mannaged or get your self out of a manic or other episode then that would not ban you,BUT if you check your self in and tell them YOU are thinking of hurting some one or your self that will and SHOULD ban you from gun ownership as by that you would become a prohibited person

the problem in the background checks stems from HIPPA (privacy laws) meaning that say for example you were reported for a suicide attempt and sent to a hospital but NOT arrested for it there will be no record of your institutionalization to my knowledge,and if you went and tried to buy a gun and LIED on the form they would have no way of proving it due to hippa privacy laws(this to me is a thing i would like to see rectified as not every mentally ill person should own guns but i do not think that a diagnosis alone should ban them from gun ownership) the only way i think such a thing would show up on a background check is if its linked to your criminal record,.

my own theory for how to stop prohibited persons from getting guns in this manner and still be in compliance(i think) with HIPPA laws would be if you are ever sent to a mental health facility against your will(5150) that they should be able to flag your ssn as being a prohibited person BUT not say what for thus protecting patient privacy and hopefully preventing guns from getting into the wrong hands.

www.hhs.gov... link to Hipaa laws

www.atf.gov... atf guidlines on prohibited persons this is the key part that relates to those who are committed

who has been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to any mental institution;

with committed meaning forced against their will or a 5150 charge

www.atf.gov... this is the form all people buying a gun from an FFL have to fill out(private sales are not required but it is recommended to make sure your not selling a weapon to a prohibited person) hope this helps

Originally posted by UmbraSumus

Originally posted by NarrowGate



No I did not ask that. That would be swills I believe.

My bad NG. Apologies .


Post Traumatic Stress Disorder ..... is a mental illness by definition.

So is trichotillomania, the urge to pull out your own hairs.

I've had a very mild form of this my whole life, no bald patches, but I still find myself plucking hairs now and then.

Do you think I'm unsafe to own a firearm because of it?

Originally posted by Xtrozero

Originally posted by NarrowGate

Why wouldn't you? Does PTSD bar people from gun ownership? Is PTSD a mental illness? No.

Stop labeling our veterans as crazy just because they have seen combat!! sickening. Nice reward they get for their service - a minimum wage job and labeled mentally ill. Go ahead, fuel the fire.

A vet that has seen combat, like myself with over 28 years of active duty, does not suggest they have PTSD too...which the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders has a large section on this "disorder". My assumption, which could be wrong BTW, is that a person with PTSD that is at a charity event for that cause would most likely be on the extreme end of the disorder and not just having something like nightmares and is seen as an outpatient.

Well, I over reacted. The way people label people and demonize them is quite annoying brother, so do not take offense. I apologize for the wording, but you know what I mean (was that post of mine you quoted directed at you or are you just jumping in?).

In regards to different levels - there can be underlying disorders that PTSD triggers or makes worse. There can be other factors unrelated to PTSD that account for odd behavior as well.

My point is that PTSD is in itself a condition. I have seen the effects of it in many people, and there are benefits from it in most cases. It does increase awareness.

There are nightmares and auditory hallucinations yes, along with other minor annoyances like shaking and anxiety sometimes isolation. These pose no threat.

For PTSD to be dangerous, there has to be something else going on. PTSD alone is no danger. People view our combat vets as dangerous, but the ones I know are level headed even when drunk. Sometimes their TBI if they have it temporarily confuses them, but they are not impulsively violent. No far from it. They are more level headed than many I have seen that do not have these either PTSD or TBI. From what I have seen anyways. I would not like to see them demonized.



eta: I am throwing TBI in to show that even with TBI they are STILL level headed enough that they are not violent. I have seen someone run their mouth to a man with TBI and PTSD from his time in Iraq and he was calm and collected. More so than many who have never seen violence.

reply to post by RalagaNarHallas


Wow.

You are well informed it would appear. Thanks for the info.

Not sure what to make of this... I don't know enough about mental health to judge here but this is something that concerns me.


Hippa must not be violated though. That is far to critical to the well being of all parties involved. We are not communists.