The First Shots of the Second American Revolution have been fired

reply to post by frazzle


I personally view forced insurance payments as a form of tax, since they are required by the government, even though they are payed to private companies. They amount to taxation paid to private entities. Now, in the matter of auto insurance, I can avoid that tax by simply not driving, That's the route I take myself. I neither drive nor have a driver's license. In the matter of the Federal Health Tax, the only way to avoid it is to stop breathing, and I'm unwilling to go quite that far. The next option is to simply refuse to comply. THAT is the route I'm going to take in that matter. May God have mercy on the souls of any who come to attempt enforcing that tax on me. Since I was not given a choice, neither shall they be.

In the matter of firearms regulation, I think that any who would ban them - of any type - should first be willing to give up THEIRS, to set an example. When the government gives up THEIR guns, then they might have a leg to stand on in trying to take them away from private citizens. If they aren't willing to give up theirs, how can they ask anyone else to give them up in violation of their rights?

I note that the Constitution guarantees the right of the citizens to keep and bear arms, but does not guarantee the right of the Federal government to do so in any sort of absolute or permanent way. It does not, for example, explicitly guarantee the right of the Federal government to maintain a standing army. It does not DENY that power, but it does not explicitly guarantee it, either. That cannot be said of the rights of the citizens to arms. We have an explicit guarantee. They do not.

They should give up their guns first.

reply to post by nenothtu


You’re right, auto ins. is a form of taxation paid to private corporations. That’s because private corporations have been running this freak show for a lot longer than many people realize and the corps are always allowed to get away with it because they’ve got all the trick lawyers in their pockets and people knuckle under. And yes, mandatory ins. would be legal ONLY if states collected the premiums since they made driving a privilege granted by government and not a right. But two wrongs do not make a right, at least not without a turn signal.

The choice not to drive is a personal one for you and that’s fine, but its not the choice of hundreds of millions of others who do consider the right to travel a fundamental part of the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness and their rights are every bit as important as a gun owner’s under the second amendment. The courts have made that point clear time after time and still most of us knuckle under.

For example: "The Right of the Citizen to travel upon the public highways and to transport his property thereon, either by horse drawn carriage or by automobile, is not a mere privilege which a city can prohibit or permit at will, but a common Right which he has under the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." [emphasis added] Thompson vs. Smith, 154

Many more examples can be found @ web.archive.org...:/user.icx.net/~drherb/licensing.html

So considering the fact that the people have never stood up to a bajillion and one earlier incursions against their rights, why would the feds be overly concerned if people get a little torqued at another new incursion? They have already concluded that they and their corporate buds are the owners of the air you breathe as well as the roads you (don’t) use and the guns someone else doesn’t want you to own. Just ask Obama, he has openly stated that he can take away your (or anyone’s) right to breathe with, or possibly even without, a stroke of a pen. Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness are not obstacles in NDAA’s way.

Thinking about it, I’m not even half convinced that Seabag is correct in his assessment of the first shots being fired in this “war” for liberty over more gun regulation or confiscation. We, as a people, have developed such a solid reputation for being rugs beneath a fascist’s foot and we probably won’t fail to live up to our rep. this time around either.

Just think of all the things that were once voluntary: social security numbers, paying taxes, having a driver’s license, having a bank account, buying insurance. And think of all the Americans who believe we reallllly, reallllly NEED those things if we’re to have a “civil” society.

Give it a generation or so and there will be no more guns in the hands of private citizens. They’re too “uncivil”.

reply to post by nenothtu

In the matter of firearms regulation, I think that any who would ban them - of any type - should first be willing to give up THEIRS, to set an example. When the government gives up THEIR guns, then they might have a leg to stand on in trying to take them away from private citizens. If they aren't willing to give up theirs, how can they ask anyone else to give them up in violation of their rights?

Great point!



It will never happen for many reasons, and you know why as well as anyone.

We have allowed these guys to get too big for their own britches and it’s time the states (the people) tell them to go to hell. The 2nd amendment is the ‘line in the sand’ for many because it is the right that protects all rights. We all know this is just another step in a pattern of usurpation by our federal government and it needs to end. People can downplay and criticize Americans who take this stand but I surely don’t care what they think or say…it rolls right off my shoulders! If they have any sense at all they'll likely thank us one day!

Originally posted by frazzle

Just think of all the things that were once voluntary: social security numbers, paying taxes, having a driver’s license, having a bank account, buying insurance. And think of all the Americans who believe we reallllly, reallllly NEED those things if we’re to have a “civil” society.

I don't have a driver's license (which doesn't mean I don't get around), a bank account, OR insurance. I guess I'm pretty damned uncivilized!

Hi, I'm neno, and I'm a barbarian.

Coming to a Public Enemies List near you soon!

ETA: I wonder if the government has to carry liability insurance to patch me up with when they shoot me?

Originally posted by seabag

People can downplay and criticize Americans who take this stand but I surely don’t care what they think or say…it rolls right off my shoulders! If they have any sense at all they'll likely thank us one day!

I don't much care, either. I don't much expect them to thank me, nor do I even want them to. It's enough for me if they leave my stuff alone and stay offa my lawn!

The first shot of the First American Revolution was fired at Lexington. By who? The history books tell us nothing. France shot first. Like Han Solo. Later they enter the war to the benefit of their military industrial agribusiness complex. And what about Lafayette? Think about it.

nenothtu-

I don't know if I can continue this discussion. I am currently working very hard and negotiating a promotion at work, and responding here means I have to get up at 5 AM... this is getting very tiring, as interesting as it is.
Lots of people felt resentful at having their tax money go to things like invading Iraq, or having their sons and daughters lives be sacrificed for things like that.

I keep trying to say I don't want to engage in going off topic here into the gun control issue, but I seem to be a voice in the wilderness. The reason is that my personal position on that is complicated and (as is usually my style) it is moderate and tends to sound ambivalent at first, attractign attack by BOTH sides, who imagine I am one of the "other side". Then I'll have to get up at 4 AM and respond to multiple snarky posts each morning.

But I'll say this- I have no desire or intent to have an influence upon the laws of the US, state or federal. I realize I am not there currently so figure I forfeit my rights to vote (though legally I still have it). I consider myself a citizen of the world, and if any issue means that much to me, I go somewhere that is reflects my own values and positions on it- the world is a big place with some of everything.
I prefer gun control and background checks. I prefer that people who have been treated for violent crime and dangerous mental illness most of their life be refused firearms. I prefer people be educated in how to safetly store and use them. I prefer that the government I am under be kept small, with a smaller military, less power, and more investment done in protecting employees rights and a basic social security. I have all that at the moment, so feel absolutely no drive to push it on people who do not have the same preference.

I do not feel that the Constitution is detailed enough to provide much guidance without some work a interpretation. It provides ideals, which are great for pulling people together in a shared scope. But with time things need to be worked out. I also get blasted for suggesting the same thing about the french following the Napoleanic Code- in which those working for the trains get a bonus each month because of the risks of getting coal in their eyes, the farmers get a bonus each month to pay for each of their horses they have (so they can pull the plow ), office workers get a Bicycle bonus, because they must be riding a bicycle to work around all those horsedrawn carriages in th street.... the people don't want to change that holy document because they are abusing it.

I like having some structure and plans we use to construct a society, but I also see necessity to have some flexibility and pragmaticism in life. But even if you people want to cling to that document, then you must be coherent- insist upon the rights of every citizen to have nuclear weaponry if they want it, to have any weaponry that the government can have! That is the only way you will keep your power faced with the government.

And by "social security" I didn't mean just retirement. I should have explained. In this country, the security that the people provide for each other is wider than just retirement- they also include basic healthcare for all other ages, and some basic financial aid in case of need such as unemployment. Each time you are paid, you get a run down of how much of your pay went to each (retirement, health, unemplyment...) and the total of what you have paid into them so far. If you lose your job, that is how much you have the right to get- exactly what you paid into it, not more, not less. Except healthcare, which provides basic care and is multipayer system, with private medical care providers of your own choice.I was refering to that.

Now it has cut off the rest of your text. But I really have to go. I guess my mind has not been changed on my opinion that I wish a form of revolution could be attempted that was not of the traditional form. I think you tell a lot of these people they're going into the streets with their guns to revolt, they will be excited and lacking any real tangible enemy in front of them, and turn to imagining the civilians around them are that enemy instead.

In my mind, that is being manipulated by your enemy in power (the ones with the drones and multitudes of other technology). I also can't help rolling my eyes a bit at the popular assertion that "I am individualist, I think for myself and am free" while pledging obedience to a peice of paper written by men long long ago (above and beyond whatever the context currently is). That is as free thinking as a Christian or a Muslim.

Originally posted by nenothtu

Originally posted by frazzle

Just think of all the things that were once voluntary: social security numbers, paying taxes, having a driver’s license, having a bank account, buying insurance. And think of all the Americans who believe we reallllly, reallllly NEED those things if we’re to have a “civil” society.

I don't have a driver's license (which doesn't mean I don't get around), a bank account, OR insurance. I guess I'm pretty damned uncivilized!

Hi, I'm neno, and I'm a barbarian.

Coming to a Public Enemies List near you soon!

ETA: I wonder if the government has to carry liability insurance to patch me up with when they shoot me?

edit on 2013/2/9 by nenothtu because: (no reason given)

Oh ho! Or should that be aho?

I read your response before shutting this gizmo down for the night so naturally I gave it some thought and came up with a less than clever response about who one earth would want to shoot you anyway. Then a lightbulb went off in my head. Or maybe a ghost coshed me over the head in my sleep and gave me a concussion.

Adding up all of these things that you don't have and don't want any part of, plus your assertion that weaponry is not necessarily limited to guns, plus a much earlier comment about half of your people "already being here" (that stuck since about half of mine were already here, as well) ... and well, maybe one plus one plus one can add up to a few rebels and maybe it adds up to one guy on the warpath? Either way, It would be so cool if we could figure out how to do that warpath thing against the great white father together this time instead of wasting our time giving each other really short haircuts.