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Now here is why it's a problem, and why just leaving the guns alone at this point won't settle it down. Because the gun issue is so much clearer, it has served to shed light on the intentions that all of the other abuses are leading up to. People are seeing how the chain of events build up one upon the other, how each lays the foundation for the next in an ever tightening noose, and from that they can project where the events are leading to, whose neck the noose is tightening on. They're not going to just let the guns issue settle the entire thing now, because they can see the rest much better, and they don't like what they are seeing.
Things like road rage happen! Perhaps the way certain people talk, trying to sound tough, gives the idea that they do not control their anger? I have noticed that on this site, for example, people will spurt some very hostile stuff and not even see any need to apologize, or make any effort in the future to channel their hostility into diplomatic forms. That is uncivilized behavior. I don't know. I am limited in knowing the sources of their conclusions.
Originally posted by babybunnies
If you think that the individual states are going to do any better at governing themselves than Washington DC, then you have misplaced your faith in such things, I'm afraid.
Politicians in individual states are just as corrupt as those in Washington DC, and just as easily bought by the special interest groups.
Originally posted by babybunnies
If you think that the individual states are going to do any better at governing themselves than Washington DC, then you have misplaced your faith in such things, I'm afraid.
Politicians in individual states are just as corrupt as those in Washington DC, and just as easily bought by the special interest groups.
Originally posted by nenothtu
That's not what I said. I said a) I do not have any guns, and b)not all weapons fire a bullet or draw blood. Both are true, but neither equates to firearms being unnecessary as defensive tools. I also do not drive nor have a car, but that doesn't mean I think no one else should, or that they are useless.
Simple question: are these people who are "not planning" a civil war armed right now, or are they not?
Now here is why it's a problem, and why just leaving the guns alone at this point won't settle it down. Because the gun issue is so much clearer, it has served to shed light on the intentions that all of the other abuses are leading up to. People are seeing how the chain of events build up one upon the other, how each lays the foundation for the next in an ever tightening noose, and from that they can project where the events are leading to, whose neck the noose is tightening on. They're not going to just let the guns issue settle the entire thing now, because they can see the rest much better, and they don't like what they are seeing.
Originally posted by Bluesma
reply to post by frazzle
What makes some people able to handle big cities and close quarters with others? Why is that for some people "hell is others" and for others, hell is loneliness? Is it characteristics we are born with or without? Nature? Nurture? Cultural education that values individualism or social conscience?
This is a whole other question to delve into, and it is an interesting one. But in this conversation, I didn't mean to go into "why" this is the case, only point to a probable outcome of such an event.
Originally posted by Bluesma
You said "to answer your question"- my question asked about firearms in particular (guns) and whether those could defeat the American military- I didn't mean to misinterpret your answer, I am sorry if you felt I did. It was not, in fact an answer to my question then.
So they would also support the government using it's forces to control these uncivilized parts of the population... which is where we circle back to the question of- can you defeat your government with these arms you have?
Against their many other forms of weaponry and technology?
Simple question: are these people who are "not planning" a civil war armed right now, or are they not?
Some are, some are not. I do not know for all of them. I know two of them have a gun for sure. They were both willing to go through whatever checks and controls would be enforced -but they are both people with no criminal record, no mental illness, etc. The others I don't know, never asked.
But I imagine that if things continue to heat up this way, more and more talk of revolution happens and no gun control is put into effect, they would feel forced to get some for self defense. If gun control was put into effect, they would feel less threatened.
It's one thing to know there are crazy violent people outside your door screaming that they are going to start attacking, another to know they are armed.
I understand they see things this way and that is why I do not buy the assertion that there will be no more danger if everyone is allowed to keep their guns. The danger will continue to grow for those who have seen these changes as moves in a positive direction.
I personally think the Obamacare plan is a mistake, but probably not for the reasons you do. But like I said, I don't want to make this discussion about you and me- nor even a judgement on which side of the country is "right" or "wrong" (in my mind there is none).
The problem seems to me that the country is simpy split in what they want it to be, and I find that a flammable situation right now, and if it blows up, I think it is the people who will get hurt the most- civilians hurting civilians. The government, the US military, is not going to suffer much. They've been built up to a strength meant to scare the whole world at this point! Sometimes our most formidable oppressors are our own defenses- we put up walls to protect ourselves and they make us prisoners.
It would be like an overcrowded rat cage.
Originally posted by nenothtu
Ah. So if the fearless Leader outlaws their guns, they would of course turn them in, post haste, right? After that, what are they really going to do against the "crazy violent people outside their doors" who elected NOT to give up their guns, but revolt instead? They can't very well go to war against the rebellion with the guns they just gave up, can they? Pitchforks, perhaps?
Well, you see then! There is a basis for rapport, an avenue towards communication. As long as talking is still open, violence is far less likely. There wouldn't be any "danger" to them if there were no unilateral edicts issued against the other side. If they feel "threatened", I submit it's because they know, deep down, that they have unjustifiably pissed off their opposition, and left no opening for dialog. It may be a win of sorts for them, but it's not a permanent or a secure one. There IS NO "right" or "wrong", there is only consensus, which will not be found either with unilateral edicts or open warfare. Open war IS, however, a frequent response throughout history to unilateral edicts when there is no way out.
There is no doubt that if it blows, it's the people who will be hurt the most. That's the way it always works out.
The entire government could be obliterated, and it would STILL be the people who are hurt the most. That's why I think it would be a good idea to immediately halt all efforts to make one half the slaves of the other half.
That didn't work out too well last time.
Originally posted by Bluesma
reply to post by Daedalus
....and that has what to do with my assertion that was made in this thread, and opposed, that I think a revolution would end up killing more civilians than anything else, becoming closer to a civil war instead, and being a very sad event.....???
I didn't challenge whether any of those things was right, wrong, good, bad (constitutional or not) and am starting to feel like all this stupid arguing with me because of that one simple opinion is just trying to distract people from registering that very simple, strong, and thought provoking possibility. Trying to lose it in all the bullcrap and nit picking!!
I am american. The republicans, the democrats, the conservative, the liberals... they are ALL MY COUNTRYMEN!
YOU AMERICANS IN THIS THREAD ARE MY BROTHERS!!!!!
None of you have a life that holds more value than the other. No matter what the Constitution says (or the Bible, or the Coran, or the Bhagavad Vita, or whatever other friggin' book or written work says )
-and you are treating me condescendingly without reason and I STILL say-
It will be sad if you and your neighbor kill each other. Sad and stupid.
edit on 7-2-2013 by Bluesma because: (no reason given)
Originally posted by Daedalus
I don't believe it's nitpicking..i'm pointing out faults in your argument...
the people are mad over things like obamacare, and the proposed gun ban...just look at new york....
your argument is that you think a revolution would kill more civilians than anything else....talk about that, instead of trying to justify and explain away the catalysts that have the ability to spark a violent revolution..
People are mad about them BECAUSE they're unconstitutional, and the people know it.
Originally posted by Bluesma
reply to post by frazzle
I understand. I am a born and raised city girl. But at the age of two, I used to get out at four AM and could only be found blocks away, naked, in the middle of a cow pasture, standing amongst the cows. Now, I cannot understand how there was a dairy farm in Los Angeles! There surely isn't anymore. But I always wanted to live in the country, despite the values I was surrounded with, which dictate that intellectual skill and careers are superior.
I now live in a rural area, with lots of animals, work with livestock, have everything I need to live independantly if necessary, and am very happy. The contact with the earth and physical effort fulfils me.
But I must admit that part of this desire was born from two things- being highly independantly natured- I don't trust anyone. If they aren't bad willed (few are) they are just plain dumb... or they could be just human and prone to mistakes, and I'd rather be subject to my OWN mistakes so I can at least learn from them and maybe do better next time. In short, I have some social handicaps when it comes to interdependance.
---
Did my education make me so independant? Or was it genetic? I am not sure. But it often makes me wonder if our american values might be turning out more and more independant minded people, which would account for our lack of solidarity as a nation. (or people who get overstimulated and start shooting people....)edit on 7-2-2013 by Bluesma because: (no reason given)
Originally posted by Bluesma
Originally posted by Daedalus
I don't believe it's nitpicking..i'm pointing out faults in your argument...
the people are mad over things like obamacare, and the proposed gun ban...just look at new york....
your argument is that you think a revolution would kill more civilians than anything else....talk about that, instead of trying to justify and explain away the catalysts that have the ability to spark a violent revolution..
People are mad about them BECAUSE they're unconstitutional, and the people know it.
Fault in my argument? Where? Even those that started out picking eventually agree- the situation is flammable, even if this one issue of gun control has a positive outcome, it most likely will not calm the situation. You, I, and these others agree on that point.
Yes, people are mad... and the other people know it... I see you agree with me on this as well.
I know the stance on the second amendment and I have discussed my personal opinion on that in threads dedicated to that topic (of which there are many). I did not share that here because it is not the topic.
The topic here is the possibility of a revolution in the USA. What did you want to explain to me on that subject???
Originally posted by Leonidas
I think the reality is that the people are much more united than it seems. The two-party system has devolved into a situation where the two parties take opposite sides of any issue just to be different more than any real conviction.
The politicians are the problem. Not the people. And I dont believe that the people have anything to fear from the military, the military will not be called out to fire on the public and I seriously believe they would refuse.
The country is much better off than the politicians and the media keep trying to scare people into believing it is.
The strength of the country is the people.