service men and women will fire upon civilians if ordered

Originally posted by HamsterWarrior
reply to post by superman2012

 

I'll bite. I have been in multiple applicable situations. I was ordered to do something that I assessed as unlawful (taking someone out, firing upon a structure/vehicle, etc) and I didn't follow the order. This has been due to multiple reasons...thinking the "rifle" someone was carrying was actually not a rifle, seeing a woman/child in the line of fire/harms way, having a "feeling" that someone was really a bad guy, just in the wrong place at the wrong time. Each time, I questioned the order by telling leadership what I was seeing and holding off on making a move. I was NEVER advised to just shut up and follow orders, not even close. Every single time whoever was in charge and I worked together to determine the actual situation.

We are human beings first, and although we all joined for different reasons, I have never met a fellow serviceman that joined just so they could get to kill people. It is also important to note that when I was given these orders, they were never given with nefarious intentions. Leadership thought they were telling me to kill what they believed were bad guys, didn't see civilians, etc.

Also, I am now one of those giving the order to fire to others...one of those you accuse of ordering unlawful/inhumane actions. I can't tell you how much it pisses me off that there are goddamned civilians out there such as yourself who think the way you do. It is hard to for me to fathom how misguided you are. People of your ilk believe they know the "truth" when they are in fact going thru life wearing blinders...different blinders than most, but blinders all the same.

And I think that is one part of the narrative that civilians don't understand. Military wants to avoid civilian casualties if at all possible. The military wants to avoid repeats of Mai Lai or Abu Garhib. We aren't bloodthirsty Nazis, we want to do the right thing.

reply to post by DZAG Wright


I'm not sure what set your mind against the military. Passed up for promotion? Fail selection? Not make height/weight? What was it? I am curious.

I do not know when/where/how you served. But, I do know you lie.You take one example from thousands of soldiers and portray it as the "norm". Tens of thousands of soldiers have served with honor and distinction.

My father was shot three times (twice in the chest and once in the leg), yet he carried his platoon Sergeant and dragged a fellow soldier three miles to safety in the Korean war. Not because he was a brainwashed killer, but because he was loyal to his comrades (who were american BTW).

I was hit by two RPG blasts, yet I dragged an injured Iraqi into our compound (only about 60m). I was hit in the leg when I went back to get a second Iraqi and I got the third without further injury. I didn't do that because I am a brainwashed killer. I did it because they were my soldiers at the time, my life would have little meaning if I abandoned my loyalties for safety.

I watched a man on a convoy die in a vehicle accident. He had a fraction of a second to decide which side of the cab would be destroyed. He chose to allow the passenger to survive even at the cost of his own life. He didn't do that because he was a brainwashed killer, but because the passenger was a fellow american.

Keep harping on the "brainwashed killers" angle of conspiracy. It only serves to display your personal angst against the military (for whatever reason you have).

I do wish you all the best and I hope you only know peace for the rest of your days. I pray with all that I am that you, or any other american, never need those "brainwashed killers" to save you. But I know that no matter what is said about the men and women in uniform, no matter what is done against us, we will stand up and we will lay down our lives for the American people. Because we BELIEVE in them, not because we are "brainwashed killers".

Nobody loves a soldier, until an enemy is at the gate.

reply to post by 200Plus


Yours is probably the best explanation for what will occur. It will all boil down to a choice. What side are you on? Judging from what I have seen in my almost 52 years on this earth, I would say that we are totally screwed. Hopefully I am wrong!

I've seen many people over the years choose the path of least resistance to achieve their goals and usually they can be persuaded to turn on anyone especially if the price is right or if they THINK the price is right. What the morons fail to factor into the equation is that they will more than likely be double crossed and taken out after they have done their dirty deed for the evil do-gooders.

But, as Dennis Miller used to say; "that's just my opinion, I could be wrong".

Originally posted by 200Plus
reply to post by DZAG Wright

 

Nobody loves a soldier, until an enemy is at the gate.

Your entire post was well written and your last line reminded me of this:

I went into a public-'ouse to get a pint o' beer,
The publican 'e up an' sez, "We serve no red-coats here."
The girls be'ind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die,
I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I:
O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, go away";
But it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play,
The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
O it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play.

I went into a theatre as sober as could be,
They gave a drunk civilian room, but 'adn't none for me;
They sent me to the gallery or round the music-'alls,
But when it comes to fightin', Lord! they'll shove me in the stalls!
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, wait outside";
But it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide,
The troopship's on the tide, my boys, the troopship's on the tide,
O it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide.

Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep
Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap;
An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit
Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit.
Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, 'ow's yer soul?"
But it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll,
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll.

We aren't no thin red 'eroes, nor we aren't no blackguards too,
But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;
An' if sometimes our conduck isn't all your fancy paints,
Why, single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints;
While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, fall be'ind",
But it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind,
There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind,
O it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind.

You talk o' better food for us, an' schools, an' fires, an' all:
We'll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.
Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face
The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace.
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!"
But it's "Saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot;
An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
An' Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool -- you bet that Tommy sees!




-THE END-
Rudyard Kipling's poem: Tommy

reply to post by dreammerchant


I never said that soldiers were perfect. i know that some will fire on Americans. Some because they are violent and don't care who that is directed against, some because they are too slow to make choices for themselves, some because they are afraid to not follow orders (better them than me mentality).

The point I want to make is that soldiers are individuals. We are not cookie cutter robots with trigger fingers. Each will make a choice, no differently than a civilian.

reply to post by DZAG Wright


Your entire scenario can be summed up in one word: ridiculous. Actually, two words: utterly ridiculous. I'd dissect it and refute each step using logic, but I fear it would fall upon deaf ears...or perhaps plugged ears would be a better term. I find the fact that you exist absolutely incredible.

The idea that American military personnel will fire live ammunition on their fellow citizens is an insult to every man and woman that volunteers to serve and shows me that you dont know any active service members or veterans.

Your concept is fear-mongering at best.

Originally posted by oasisjack
It has been a topic discussed at great length here on ATS with many former service men speaking out and stating it would not happen. They are correct in saying that they would not fire on CIVILIANS however, this requires the thought that the people are being called civilians which they most certainaly would not. Instead they would be labeled traitors, rebels, terrorists or any noun that fits the bill to demonise them and show them to be an opposing force or threat. It happened with the hippies and the national guard, it happend with the Japanese during ww2. The military is no different than us civilians in the matter of propaganda and deceit if a threat is presented the natural reaction is to eliminate it.

In iraq and afganistan people were rarly seen as civilians but as ##snipped##. They were painted as threats and eliminated as such though few really were a threat to our troops. Fear is powerfull and the need to protect ones life from threats real or perceived will more often than not overide common sense. All it takes is a well thought out and implemented propaganda campaign to distort the veiws of right and wrong.

I offer you proof of this by utelising 9/11 and our collective response to it. Any one american or foreign national who sympathized with the taliban or al-Qaida is a terrorist and is hunted down even if they have yet to cause any damage. We allowed our constitution to be trampled to prevent terrorist activity even though it is used primarily against americans with no ties to terrorism but rather those fed up with the system.

All I'm sayiing is that when the time comes I expect the military and police agencies to attack the civilian populace but at that time we will not be civilians by decree.

edit on Wed Jan 30 2013 by DontTreadOnMe because: offensive names removed.

Actually I expect full well that the men and woman of the corporate militia or the US military will fire on Americans if there is a need to! They will use different regions to police those states these regions have the most contempt for! I suspect they may not like following orders but they will have to when the first few to refuse will be executed in full view of all their comrades. Most of us will kill to protect ourselves and our families and so these will be the tactics used to manipulate the military! Fear is a potent weapon, one easily used to eliminate rational thought or sympathetic responses! God and the black ops only knows the techniques that will be used to keep the ignorant soldiers in line! We can expect that after the first few soldiers are killed by so called combatants it might become much easier for them to respond! Whatever the case may be we may only depend on ourselves for what we will do when the time comes and to that end we can't even be sure of that!

I'm not sure what set your mind against the military.
.
I'll tell you what has set my mind against our military. Just a couple of things that I haven't forgotten.
Kent state 1968 National Guard fired on unarmed students.
Waco,Us military defies possecomatatus and massacers 80 men women and children while the media falsley demonizes a christian church.
and where is the military sworn to uphold the constitution while countless leaders defy the constitution and commit treason?

I think we got some good men and women in the military. But by and large I think our military would do what ever their commanders tell them because they are witless drones. Just my opinion based on historical facts.

Wow, things are getting ctritical

reply to post by oasisjack


After that happens, civilians will fire back!

during WWII the Russians would have their army charge the German lines and they were told not to turn back. they had their own people with machines guns at their back. they were gunned down if they retreated, only a few were needed to man the machine guns and they followed orders and shot their own people.

governments have done it before, even Hitler turned on the SA, who went along with his plans, originally the SA was in charge of protecting Hitler, then he created his own private security force, THE SS, when Hitler took power, the SA was first to go!!

if you have a similar situation where the government tells the police/military to fire on its own people, even during martial law, what will happen?? will they be threatened with death? their families? being locked up with no possibility of a trial??

they already know who is publically against them and im sure they have secret files on the loyalty of people within the gorvernment and military!!

is that why obama keeps starting these small wars, to spread out the military people who he doesnt have control of, so they cant defend america when he declares martial law??

reply to post by cantyousee


Witless drones? Go to hell.

Based upon historical fact? More like based upon being misguided, misinformed, paranoid and prone to illogical conclusions.

Kent state was a situation in which you had guardsmen who were poorly trained and scared, which is a disastrous/dangerous combination. To come to the conclusion that the military is untrustworthy because of Kent State is incredibly short sighted and utter nonsense.

Waco wasn't a massacre caused by the military or government for that matter. It was caused by a dillusional bastard who thought he was Christ and broke federal laws. The fact that you side with the crazy cult is very telling.

reply to post by 200Plus



Sorry, mate. History informs us differently. Soldiers have done it before, and they will do it again. ALways been the case. Armies are often used against their own people. THus has it ever been. When Julius (who became Ceaser) came back from the Gallic wars and famously crossed that certain River he was not the first or last to threaten his homeland. THe bankers who own the Army will get what they want unless we the people learn to care more for each other than for our selves.

Google This: Stanford Prison Experiment and learn for yourself.

Kirk out.

Originally posted by HamsterWarrior
reply to post by DZAG Wright

 

16 years, enlisted. How long have you been in the service? Are you enlisted or officer?

I am completely unaware of how brainwashed we are. I guess it is because I'm brain-washed, huh? Where do you think this brain-washing occurs? Are we sent to a camp? Is it during basic training? These aren't rhetorical questions, I really want you to enlighten me...since I've been brain-washed and don't know and you obviously have all the answers.

On a serious note, if you truly believe that we would fire upon civilians if ordered and would blindly do so...well, you are an idiot. That, or you are incredibly misguided, paranoid and mis-informed.

You feel like a fish out of water if you leave your "cover" in the building?

If someone yells "ATTENTION", guarantee you will stop what you're doing and snap to attention...unless you have been in so long it no longer affects you.

These are all examples of the programming we receive in basic training and continues throughout. There are many things we do automatic. 10 years later and I STILL walk on the right side of a hallway only.

In basic training we are treated like a cpu hardrive...everything is wiped clean and then we are uploaded with the data they want in us. Now after years of being in the service and slacking it wears off to an extent but still.

Originally posted by rock427
I suspect that some would, just like I suspect that some wouldn't. The fact is, we do have a lot of good people in the military, and yes, even some representatives in Congress, and at the state and local levels. You would have a fracturing of the US. A civil war would be the most likely outcome.

The ones that wouldn't would be relieved of duty and replaced, simple as that.

Originally posted by 200Plus
reply to post by dreammerchant

 

Each will make a choice, no differently than a civilian.

edit on 1-2-2013 by 200Plus because: (no reason given)

I don't believe that for a second beaucse it is not supported by any evidence. I mean, yeah, it is obvious a few will do the right thing, but the Army is smarter and stronger than the boys who sign up under its flag, and "they" can make you do whateverthehell they want you to do.

Secondly, even if a percentage of soldiers decline to participate, it won't matter. Even if only half of you decide to follow orders it will be ugly and uglier.

That said, "they" are not gonna go at it that way. They don't work Americans like they work Saudis or Palestinians. With us they use psyops, financial leverage, and the ever-present incremental python-squeeze technique to get what they want. How else to explain the ubiquity of crazy whit like bottled water, car loans, iPhones, and all the other crazy # people clamour for. Mind control simply WORKS on Americans.

reply to post by MarsSentinel


There really is no nice way to say it...using Ceasar as an example for your argument is incredibly stupid. Not sure if you realize this or not, but society has changed in the past couple thousand years or so. Also not sure if you know this or not, but military members are also members of this society. You really have no idea what you are talking about, and it shows.

Originally posted by 200Plus
reply to post by DZAG Wright

 

I'm not sure what set your mind against the military. Passed up for promotion? Fail selection? Not make height/weight? What was it? I am curious.

I do not know when/where/how you served. But, I do know you lie.You take one example from thousands of soldiers and portray it as the "norm". Tens of thousands of soldiers have served with honor and distinction.

My father was shot three times (twice in the chest and once in the leg), yet he carried his platoon Sergeant and dragged a fellow soldier three miles to safety in the Korean war. Not because he was a brainwashed killer, but because he was loyal to his comrades (who were american BTW).

I was hit by two RPG blasts, yet I dragged an injured Iraqi into our compound (only about 60m). I was hit in the leg when I went back to get a second Iraqi and I got the third without further injury. I didn't do that because I am a brainwashed killer. I did it because they were my soldiers at the time, my life would have little meaning if I abandoned my loyalties for safety.

I watched a man on a convoy die in a vehicle accident. He had a fraction of a second to decide which side of the cab would be destroyed. He chose to allow the passenger to survive even at the cost of his own life. He didn't do that because he was a brainwashed killer, but because the passenger was a fellow american.

Keep harping on the "brainwashed killers" angle of conspiracy. It only serves to display your personal angst against the military (for whatever reason you have).

I do wish you all the best and I hope you only know peace for the rest of your days. I pray with all that I am that you, or any other american, never need those "brainwashed killers" to save you. But I know that no matter what is said about the men and women in uniform, no matter what is done against us, we will stand up and we will lay down our lives for the American people. Because we BELIEVE in them, not because we are "brainwashed killers".

Nobody loves a soldier, until an enemy is at the gate.

I just realized what we in the Army all were...

People try and paint us to be these sentient beings with nothing but goodness and patriotism running through our veins and I laugh out loud. We were dispicable at times! There's NOTHING or NOONE more grimey than a Army grunt, we acknowledged and enjoyed this! The things we would do....I can't even begin to list the accounts here. Realize that I'm talking about when I was lower Enlisted. Of course officers are held to a different account and are supposed to be gentlemen. I really don't have much dirt on them because they didn't mingle with us. But everyone of the Enlisted ranks.... they can't tell me anything.

It's why when things such as the Secret Service and their hooker thing broke, it didn't come as a surprise to myself.....THAT'S a CULTURE thing in the service! We whore around like it's noone's business! The rest of the world was shocked and thought the SS should be better but as a servicemember YOU know that's what deployments in peacetime are all about....finding that side-piece until you get back home to your wife. Now when it comes to adultery I do KNOW that even the officers partake in this.

No I'm not saying we are "brainwashed killers", I'm saying we have been reprogrammed to follow orders and separate ourselves from the outside world (civilians).

The examples you gave, I'm not against those, I acknowledge that I would have died for my comrades as well. Actually, that ties into what I am saying. There already is a "us against them" atmosphere in the military. Whereever you are stationed, I'm sure there are areas in that town/city your command has ordered you not to go? Those areas of the civilian population are off limits?

I never said I was salty against the military...I love my servicemembers and brothers/sisters still in! I just realize there aren't all those patriotic blue-bloods people think there are serving.

Originally posted by HamsterWarrior
reply to post by DZAG Wright

 

Your entire scenario can be summed up in one word: ridiculous. Actually, two words: utterly ridiculous. I'd dissect it and refute each step using logic, but I fear it would fall upon deaf ears...or perhaps plugged ears would be a better term. I find the fact that you exist absolutely incredible.

Well...........................................