Should Scotland be an independent country?

reply to post by christina-66

You may not appreciate that the Scottish people have never been given a say on membership of the Union they have been part of for more than 300 years...

Playing Devils Advocate here but in the interests of balance - neither have the English.

Have you ever considered that maybe English people are sick of The Union.

And I think it's fair to point out that The Union came about after an approach from Scottish noblemen at a time when a Scotsman had gained the English throne.
It served their purposes then and has continued to do so ever since - The Union has created many exceptionally wealthy Scots.

Of course the 'ordinary' Scots have been exploited and have never been consulted - but the same applies to the 'ordinary' people throughout the rest of The Union - Scotland is not unique.

and in roughly 20 months for the first time in our history we will actually have a say in the matter.

And so you should - but should the rest of the UK have the same 'right'?

Nor may you appreciate that the Scottish school curriculum has been carefully constructed over the years to disenfranchise Scots from their own history and heritage - and that many who have had no such knowledge are now enthused to learn.

The exact same thing can be said about England.
Any expression of English nationalism is immediately demonised as 'racist' and English nationalists are portrayed as egotistical, aloof, bigots.

The National Curriculum is nothing short of indoctrination and imposing mediocrity with no room for independant thought or critical thinking.
Do you honestly think that the history currently taught is any less sanitised in England and the rest of the UK than it is in Scotland?

I live in North East England and I assure you we have been crapped on and exploited at least as much as Scotland and anywhere else in the UK by the London dominated 'establishment' etc.

It is right that Scotland has got the right to self-determination - but all this portraying Scotland as some sort of subjugated, downtrodden nation is highly inaccurate and misleading.

Originally posted by christina-66
reply to post by HelenConway

 

A thread entitled 'Should England have its own parliament?' may provide the answers you seek?

I appreciate your opinion, that you think Scotland should have its independence and I hope that you appreciate that this referendum is much more important to us than a run of the mill general election. How the Scot's vote has real implications for the whole of the UK and it is only right that the consequences are debated in full before any vote takes place (as I'm certain they will be).

edit on 25-1-2013 by christina-66 because: (no reason given)

I do and I hope you appreciate that it is important for English people to have an English parliament - it is not off topic really, it all revolves around the union.

From where I am sitting Scotland do much better out of the union then England, in many ways.

Also you will not really ever be free as such - Salmond is gonna take you straight back into the EU and your new parliament will be Brussels.

Can we rebuild Hadrians wall If the Scots do decide to leave the union?

reply to post by Freeborn

Anne (6 February 1665 – 1 August 1714[1]) ascended the thrones of England, Scotland and Ireland on 8 March 1702. On 1 May 1707, under the Act of Union, two of her realms, the kingdoms of Englandand Scotland, were united as a single sovereign state, the Kingdom of Great Britain.
Anne's Catholic father, James II and VII, was deposed during the "Glorious Revolution" of 1688. Her Protestant brother-in-law and cousin William III became joint monarch with his wife, Anne's sister Mary II. After Mary's death in 1694, William continued as sole monarch until he was succeeded by Anne upon his own death in 1702.

Don’t confuse the Act of Union (1707) with the Union of the Crowns which took place in 1603 (James VI of Scotland becoming James I of England).

If English people are sick of the Union then why the hey don’t they organise and do something about it? (Of course they have the right to do that – but they obviously don’t feel that strongly about it). I am 46 years of age and some people in Scotland have been campaigning tirelessly for this referendum for the whole of my life. We are aware Scotland is not unique – but it is at the moment because of that tireless campaigning has eventually paid off – and we are actually having a vote.

And as for the rest of your post – are you suggesting that because your ‘ordinary people’ have been crapped on just as much our ‘ordinary people’ that we should simple continue with the status quo for the sake of parity?

Originally posted by christina-66
reply to post by Freeborn

 

I am 46 years of age and some people in Scotland have been campaigning tirelessly for this referendum for the whole of my life. We are aware Scotland is not unique – but it is at the moment because of that tireless campaigning has eventually paid off – and we are actually having a vote.

If the above is true Christina and I have no reason to doubt it - why do you think Scotland will be free, when you will have all your laws made in Brussels ?

You currency will be the euro .. you will not be able to control your interest rates, bit like now ..

I would have more respect for Scotland if they actually REALLY set themselves up as a free nation like Iceland. That 'aint gonna happen though,

Originally posted by Tuttle
reply to post by Alfie1

 

They have been in decline ever since the first barrel of oil was removed, however all major wells will still be operational by 2020, and even after then, there is still such a vast amount of oil and gas available, it really doesnt matter too much. Also a decline in production doesnt actualy mean the oil is not there, maintenance, gas leaks, price of oil etc controls how much production actualy happens.

I dont believe North Sea Oil and Gas is really something to rely on times of independence, but even without it, Scotland would do very well financialy. Better than England anyway, we have more natural resources and a much smaller population, simples. But lets be honest, the UK economy as a whole is totaly screwed, in all countries within it.

But you did read the whole article though right?

The 400 million lump sum will be offset by a reduction in our budget spending over the next 4 years?

Thats my only realy gripe about it, I couldnt care less about independence but Scotland retains less than 10% of it budget allocation, the rest is allocated by Parliament. Im not sure that is very sound at all.

edit on 25-1-2013 by Tuttle because: (no reason given)

I wasn't going to respond to your previous comments, as I am more infuriated by the OP's remark regarding independence. Then I read this.

Do you know anything about oil or are you just googling anything you can find and hoping it's correct.

Oh let me guess you work with oil, don't care, you sound ridiculous and you are feeding ATS complete BS.

Originally posted by TheWetCoast
I know this topic will strike deep to the hearts of all those involved. I Do believe that Scotland should be free.I want Scotland to be free and I dream of the day that it will be. I belong to the Boyd Clan and I will serve the Boyd Clan in any way I can. Independence from England does not mean that we could not be good friends. I am Canadian and such independence could be viewed in same way as it goes for Canada;we are "independent",but we are not(no complaints here-at least none that I would ever make public).

Where do you live? Scotland, Canada? At the end of the day nobody in Scotland cares if you belong to the Boyd clan, all we want to know is why you want this country to be run by a fud.

So Alex Salmond, you like him do you? He is going to bury this country quicker than you can say "OH S@@T"

Best regards,
very angry scottish bloke

reply to post by angryhulk


Enlighten me please and point out what I have said that is wrong.

reply to post by christina-66

If English people are sick of the Union then why the hey don’t they organise and do something about it? (Of course they have the right to do that – but they obviously don’t feel that strongly about it).

How do you know they don't feely strongly about it?

English nationalists are denied the opportunity to express their opinion and are immediately demonised.

You make such a big thing that 'the Scottish people have never been given a say on membership of the Union' and by implication that you are a subjugated nation - my point is simply that no-one has - nothing more, nothing less.

I am 46 years of age and some people in Scotland have been campaigning tirelessly for this referendum for the whole of my life.

And I am 47 years of age and some people in England have been campaigning tirelessly for an English Parliament yet they are still ridiculed.

Recent surveys suggest that around 36% of English people support total English independance and that significantly more support a devolved English Parliament within The Union in line with Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales - yet you will be hard pushed to find that reported in MSM.

We are aware Scotland is not unique – but it is at the moment because of that tireless campaigning has eventually paid off – and we are actually having a vote.

And rightly so - I just hope that it will not turn into a vote for or against Alex Salmond and the SNP.

And as for the rest of your post – are you suggesting that because your ‘ordinary people’ have been crapped on just as much our ‘ordinary people’ that we should simple continue with the status quo for the sake of parity?

The last thing I would ever advocate is maintaining the status quo.
The Union and all it's nations could and should be something that we are all proud of - nothing could be further from the truth at present.

I just dislike it when some people try to portray Scotland as some sort of weak, subjugared nation that hasn't got anything out of The Union or that it has been specifically and uniquely targetted by the London centric 'establishment' etc.

Originally posted by christina-66
I am 46 years of age and some people in Scotland have been campaigning tirelessly for this referendum for the whole of my life. We are aware Scotland is not unique – but it is at the moment because of that tireless campaigning has eventually paid off – and we are actually having a vote.

Yes 'some' people have been campaigning their entire lives for this, and it's ridiculous. It's narrow minded idiots that support it who have had one two many beers after watching Braveheart.

reply to post by angryhulk


I am actually quite surprised that anyone even paid this thread any attention.My apologies if I seemed to put my foot in my mouth(I may have had too much to drink). My goal was to get the ball rolling so I went all out.Of course any opinions I have on this matter are not relevant and don't count for much.But it is good to know that I can bring out some of the passion in peoples hearts.

reply to post by Freeborn


Yes ridiculous was what I was aiming for.I am quite eccentric and I often find that the best way to overcome solid logic is with complete utter nonsense.From time to time I will even use myself as cannon fodder if it amuses me to do it.In this case if it prompted you to post a reply-I am amused(I have a very warped sense of humor).

reply to post by HelenConway


I am no fan of Europe and one of the issues that I have with Scottish independence is the SNP's declared intention to take us into Europe at all costs. Thing is, if we gain independence WE will decide. It may be that people want to be in Europe (up to their necks in the Eurozone) or, and this seems the more likely scenario, the peoples' preference is to be a member of EFTA (like Norway and Switzerland).

reply to post by Freeborn


I don’t know how they feel about English independence one way or another but whose fault is that? You can’t blame MSM in its entirety – we live in an age of global communication. You think being demonised by some citizens should be enough to stop any English independence movement? I would refer you to angryhulk’s posts and inform you that his points are NOT uncommon among the Scots (one explanation for the incessant debate that will be happening between now and the referendum).

And please, pretty please, do not put words into my mouth. I have never posted that the Scots are a subjugated nation – I have simply posted that courtesy of government education policy (and you seem to concur this has been inflicted on everyone) and the upcoming vote – many Scots are now seriously, independently, researching their own history and heritage in order to make an informed choice.

I do agree with you that England should at least have its own devolved assembly in light of Scotland, Wales and Ireland – but once again, that is up to the citizens of England to sort out. What can we in Scotland do about that?

Alex ‘who ate all the pies’ Salmond has come and (thankfully) he and his Cheshire cat smile will go as well one day. The SNP really are a one policy party and if we actually do vote for independence we will be free to take any political course we choose.

Concerning your last paragraph, are you quite sure your posts are not motivated by referendum envy? I haven’t stated we Scots are subjugated, not have I stated that we have been treated any worse than anywhere else in the UK north of Watford – I’m simply reiterating that we have a vote on the matter.

reply to post by angryhulk


Pls Mr. Hulk, articulate your points - the only thing I've seen you post on here is insult and derision with nothing to support your perspective. I don't even like Braveheart - William Wallace? pffft (great great Grandson of Richard Wallace) Well his family had been in Scotland for no more than 100 years at the time of the Wars of Independence (Wallace actually means 'Speaker of Welsh).

The Wallaces were vassals to the Fitz Alan family based in Renfrewshire who arrived in Britain with the Norman invasion. Strathclyde, was not inhabited by Gaels nor Picts but by the Britons (Brythonic Celts) who would have spoken a language akin to modern day Welsh.

The Fitz Alans themselves came from Brittany in France while the De Bruces came from Normandy - some say Wallace came here with Walter Fitz Alan because he spoke the local dialect. You know that the Fitz Alans were the Stewards to the 'kings' and that when the 6th High Steward married Robert the Bruce's daughter Marjorie that they changed their name to Stewart - and were the ancestors of the current royal family?

You may call me a narrow minded idiot but I call you a scaredy cat with Stockholm Syndrome.

And fyi











You may find this documentary of some interest. During the course of the film it is identified that without Scotland's oil Thatcher wouldn't have been able to implement the policies that she did - it was the oil revenue that paid for everyone to be put on the buroo.....surely we can do better than that? Like investing the dosh in long term infrastructure projects etc etc.

of course, the would only work if eck salmond et al followed david cameron down the pit!
I say the Iceland model is a good one to follow, dissolve the parliament and lock up all the gangsters and bankers, then maybe Scotland would have a fair chance at being independent from London and Brussels.

reply to post by cosmickat


Here's the pic you linked to.



I would add Scotland's legal establishment and all of its unelected officialdom to your list of candidates for the pit.

reply to post by christina-66


ahhh thankyou!...just don't know how to do that ! :-)

It should have the right to be if thats what the population want.

However I don't believe that its the correct way forward. Other than creating a whole lot more politicians and duplicating the British bureaucracy its not going to accomplish anything.

Whether Scotland could have been independent in the early 70s using the oil revenue is moot. This is not the 1970s. The oil has been extracted and the money spent. The heavy industry is mostly gone.

Theres estimated to be about 30% of the ultimate volume remaining. Say 20-25 years of oil to prop scotland up. Then what?

I'm Scottish, i'm also British and i'm proud of both. I do not see why i should have to stop being British for the sake of Alex Salmonds ego.