Quran Vs. Bible (And the vast contradictions between the two)

reply to post by logical7


Actually I need to correct some from me previous post. The very first time Jesus is referenced as the Son of God is when Satan was questioning Him and putting Him under trial. Even Satan doubted and yet, Satan knew. Anyway that's another discussion!! I just wanted to confirm when exactly the first mention of a singular son of God is and it is only with reference to Jesus.

reply to post by HoneyBe

If Jesus said He is the son of God, then we have two choices, believe Him or don't believe Him.

did he? In a declarative statement? Not as a part of an arguement with people who were accusing him of blasphemy.

reply to post by HoneyBe

From Adam til now, not one single person on earth has ever done what Jesus did, so if you need to believe or doubt then look at His actions.

i believe in his miracles but how that changes it? Did Moses pbuh had any power to part sea or God did it?
John the baptist was born to a barren woman and her husband was old, that actually happens 6 months before Mary got pregnant. Who had the power to do it except God. You do agree God can do miracles through his prophets yet the prophets in themselves can do nothing. Even Jesus pbuh said that he did things by power of God.

reply to post by HoneyBe

This is not true. Nowhere in the entire Bible did God ever state to anyone "except" referring to Jesus alone, that they are a begotten son of God. The first passage the begotten son of God is written in in the NT Book of John.

you dont consider OT as part of Bible?
Also John is a later written gospel with unknown author, why mark missed mentioning something so important. If you see the evolution from mark to john, you see a progressive refining/tweaking of theology to give the belief that you have now. Jesus pbuh is more a man in mark and becomes god till john.

reply to post by HoneyBe

And Jesus is heir to the throne of David through his lineage bloodline on Mary's side, which is why Jesus is also referred to as being son of David.

thats what i had said earlier.

Adam could very well call God Father,
but it is not written in that time that he
did so. It is not until much later in the
NT we begin to understand the Son of
God Jesus as compared to the first
man Adam. Adam was born of dirt/ earth, Jesus was born of spirit.

Jesus pbuh was also born of earth, earth/flesh and spirit to be precise. We all are, body and soul

Adam
disobeyed God, went against God's
word and will, Jesus did everything
unto death in perfect obedience and
will of God. Adam sinned, Jesus did
not.

Jesus pbuh was made a prophet from birth and prophets avoid sin. otherwise each baby is sinless and only later they sin.

Jesus is/was God's new creation we are told to follow rather than in the
old sinful nature of the first man,
Adam.

if you say he is a new creation that means he was created by God. By definition a creation cant be god. So God is God of Jesus pbuh too. Right?

reply to post by logical7


I just wrote responses to all but your last and clicked back on my page here and lost all of it

If you can try, please...go a little slower because some of the direction we are going into requires a lot a lot a lot of writing and each consecutive writing is just going to bring more questions on your part.

I'll be brief as I can then you can ask questions if need be,

1. I believe in all of the Bible, former to latter or OT to NT. Nowhere in the OT does any person claim to be The Son of God. If you do find a passage other than Genesis which speaks of the sons of God, then please paste it here.

2. Jesus did declare He is the Son of God, yes.

3.Many prophet's such as Moses did perform miracles, but we are strictly discussing Jesus and the miracles He performed that prove He is the Son of God. Moses never declared he was the son of God, nor did anyone "accuse" him of it. So stay on track with Jesus

4. No one on earth has been conceived by a virgin, only Jesus. So scientifically speaking, He is a one of a kind! sure we all have a dna and body composite much like Jesus, but we all have physical mothers and fathers. Also at one point God poured out His spirit unto Jesus without measure, the angels in heaven were seen coming and going unto Him. No other human can EVER make that claim. God's spirit poured out without measure on one person is inconceivable to me. And also at that same time-
Matthew 3 vs. 17
17And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

(So even God declared from Heaven that Jesus is His SON)

The proofs are endless...sometimes we are so busy trying to fight it and deny it we end up blinding ourselves to what is standing right in front of our eyes.

Originally posted by logical7

if you say he is a new creation that means he was created by God. By definition a creation cant be god. So God is God of Jesus pbuh too. Right?

edit on 27-1-2013 by logical7 because: (no reason given)

I do not understand what you're saying. Are you now saying Jesus IS God?

reply to post by HoneyBe


sorry i'l be slow

1. I believe in all of the Bible, former to latter or OT to NT. Nowhere in the OT
does any person claim to be The Son
of God. If you do find a passage other
than Genesis which speaks of the sons
of God, then please paste it here.

here

Exodus 4:22 "Thus saith Jehovah, Israel is my son, even my firstborn."

and

Jeremiah 31:9 "I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn."

and

Psalm 2:7 "....Jehovah had said onto me (David), thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee."

2. Jesus did declare He is the Son of God, yes.

where? A declarative statement not a part of an arguement.

3.Many prophet's such as Moses did
perform miracles, but we are strictly
discussing Jesus and the miracles He
performed that prove He is the Son of
God. Moses never declared he was the son of God, nor did anyone "accuse"
him of it. So stay on track with Jesus

what?? I am on track but what is this explanation? I am not proving Moses pbuh is god. I am saying miracles dont make someone a god. Thanks for agreeing. And i will wait for answer of point 2.

17And lo a voice from heaven,
saying, This is my beloved Son, in
whom I am well pleased. (So even God declared from Heaven
that Jesus is His SON)
The proofs are endless...

God said that in OT to other prophets.

reply to post by HoneyBe

Originally posted by logical7
if you say he is a new creation
that means he was created by
God. By definition a creation cant
be god. So God is God of Jesus
pbuh too. Right?

..

I do not understand what you're
saying. Are you now saying Jesus IS
God?

i said if Jesus pbuh is a new 'creation' then God existed before Jesus pbuh was created. In other words God 'created' Jesus pbuh. So he is below God as a creation. Anyone who is created is not god.

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by HoneyBe

 

Originally posted by logical7
if you say he is a new creation
that means he was created by
God. By definition a creation cant
be god. So God is God of Jesus
pbuh too. Right?

..

I do not understand what you're
saying. Are you now saying Jesus IS
God?

i said if Jesus pbuh is a new 'creation' then God existed before Jesus pbuh was created. In other words God 'created' Jesus pbuh. So he is below God as a creation. Anyone who is created is not god.

But I'm confused because we are discussion Jesus as the Son of God and now you're saying something about proving Jesus is not God. Our debate is not about Jesus being God, so why did you even write all of the above? I'm sorry, just getting off track majorly really throws me.

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by HoneyBe

 

sorry i'l be slow

Thank you.

1. I believe in all of the Bible, former to latter or OT to NT. Nowhere in the OT
does any person claim to be The Son
of God. If you do find a passage other
than Genesis which speaks of the sons
of God, then please paste it here.

Exodus 4:22 "Thus saith Jehovah, Israel is my son, even my firstborn."

Israel the land and nation and also...Israel is later applied to Jesus, so God was referring to Jesus even here in the Torah. First let's cross this ground before we go into the meanings of why Jesus and Israel are one and the same.

Jeremiah 31:9 "I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn."

Again these are nations, not a literal person and God is the Father of Earth as well, in fact if the trees and birds wish to call God Father, they can.

Psalm 2:7 "....Jehovah had said onto me (David), thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee."

This Psalm was a prophecy written about Jesus, the very words are echoed again in the NT by God to confirm this is the coming one, Son of God the whole world had been waiting for since the beginning of time.

2. Jesus did declare He is the Son of God, yes.

where? A declarative statement not a part of an arguement.

Matthew 16;
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

I do not believe the above passages need me to say anything, they speak for themselves.

what?? I am on track but what is this explanation? I am not proving Moses pbuh is god. I am saying miracles dont make someone a god. Thanks for agreeing. And i will wait for answer of point 2..

What I was trying to say is that we are specifically discussing what makes Jesus the Son of God, His miracles are only one portion of that! Many followers of Jesus also performed miracles. But did any of them die for the sins of the world? Were any of them spotless and blameless, without sin? That is a miracle no one else has delivered and no one else ever will.

I am not proving Moses pbuh is god

I took this from you above sentence. Once again...I am talking about Jesus being the Son of God, not God. Why do you keep getting this concept confused? We haven't even made it to the surface and you're jumping head on into the deep. This is what I meant by slow down. But and however! It is very interesting you've brought the meaning of the Son and the Father into one, maybe you believe more than you understand

Originally posted by HoneyBe

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by HoneyBe

 

Originally posted by logical7
if you say he is a new creation
that means he was created by
God. By definition a creation cant
be god. So God is God of Jesus
pbuh too. Right?

..

I do not understand what you're
saying. Are you now saying Jesus IS
God?

i said if Jesus pbuh is a new 'creation' then God existed before Jesus pbuh was created. In other words God 'created' Jesus pbuh. So he is below God as a creation. Anyone who is created is not god.

But I'm confused because we are discussion Jesus as the Son of God and now you're saying something about proving Jesus is not God. Our debate is not about Jesus being God, so why did you even write all of the above? I'm sorry, just getting off track majorly really throws me.

ok we will leave this. Back to topic, "son of God" a simple basic question, why do any creature/being need an offspring?

reply to post by HoneyBe

www.newadvent.org/cathen/14142b.htm

The title "son of God" is frequent in the Old Testament. The word "son" was employed among the Semites to signify not only filiation, but other
close connexion or intimate
relationship. Thus, "a son of strength"
was a hero, a warrior, "son of
wickedness" a wicked man, "sons of pride" wild beasts, "son of possession" a possessor, "son of
pledging" a hostage, "son of
lightning" a swift bird, "son of death"
one doomed to death, "son of a bow"
an arrow, "son of Belial" a wicked man, "sons of prophets" disciples of prophets etc. The title "son of God" was applied in the Old Testament to persons having any special relationship with God. Angels, just and pious men, the descendants of Seth, were called "sons of God" (Job 1:6; 2:1; Psalm 88:7; Wisdom 2:13; etc.). In a similar manner it was given to Israelites (Deuteronomy 14:50); and of Israel, as a nation, we read: "And thou shalt say to him: Thus saith the
Lord: Israel is my son, my firstborn. I have said to thee: Let my son go, that
he may serve me" (Exodus 4:22 sq.). The leaders of the people, kings,
princes, judges, as holding authority
from God, were called sons of God.

son of God in OT was understood as a pious/just person and prophets are sure pious.
Thats what i am trying to convey. The language of OT is not that literal. Jesus pbuh and his disciples talked in the same way.
At the time of Jesus pbuh, Ceasar had coins which had writting "son of God" for the king. So that concept was not alien. Jesus pbuh is also called king of israel. A king is called son of God in OT meatphorical language.

reply to post by HoneyBe

Matthew 16; 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. I do not believe the above passages need me to say anything, they speak for themselves.

no actually, he did call God as Father, but also taught all to do the same in Lord's prayer. Right? Thats just metaphorical. What Jesus pbuh did say to Simon in acknowledgement is again simple that he accepted Jesus as Christ and sent from God and Jesus told him that its not him(simon or his body/mind/understanding) but God in Heaven who guided him. You are assuming that acknowlegement was for "son" too. Its for "Christ" and son of Living God again the same metaphorical language meaning a godly person as i said in previous post.
I however had asked you a 'declarative statement' hope i wouldnt have to clear that again. He called himself son of man all the time, maybe he did that on purpose to not let people get mislead but after he was gone things changed.

reply to post by HoneyBe

But did any of them die for the sins of the world?

not the topic. Right? Lets not use it unless discussed on a common platform.

But and however! It is
very interesting you've brought the
meaning of the Son and the Father into
one, maybe you believe more than
you understand

i know and understand the theology through the eyes of a christian but dont believe it. I also understand an atheist but again i am not one.
Lets focus on the topic. I did answer many things but you can just answer the "metaphorical vs literal" discussion.

reply to post by HoneyBe

Originally posted by HoneyBe
I am not sure if Mohammed was lied to, or if he was genuine but someone/something lied to him. It goes so much further than what I've provided so far

Things start to make more sense when you understand the true origins of all false religions.

Every major religion in the world has been manufactured or infiltrated by the Illuminati to enslave and brainwash society.

I am convinced that the REAL hidden purpose behind most religion is to keep us SEPARATED from God.

The root meaning of the word religion means to connect with God but religion does exactly the opposite.

The entire agenda and purpose behind false religion is to keep the truth HIDDEN.

Religion was manufactured long ago by men who wished to control the masses. The leaders of these regions used religion to enslave their people, and religion continues to be such an evil. In essence, religion was the first form of mind control.

When the Illuminati was formed, it was evident that religion was something that could keep the masses dumb and ignorant to what was really happening around them. Is this not what has happened? Because of religion, the Illuminati has been able to work in secret for many, many years.

Every major religion in the world has been infiltrated by the Illuminati. A group that calls themselves Light Feet has installed Illuminati members in every major religion of the world. The purpose of these Light Feet is to ensure that the masses are controlled by their respective religion. Source

"The Vatican wanted to create a messiah for the Arabs, someone they could raise up as a great leader, a man with charisma whom they could train, and eventually unite all the non-Catholic Arabs behind him, creating a mighty army that would ultimately capture Jerusalem for the pope. In the Vatican briefing, Cardinal Bea told us this story:

'While Muhammad was being prepared, he was told that his enemies were the Jews and that the only true Christians were Roman Catholic. He was taught that others calling themselves Christians were actually wicked impostors and should be destroyed. Many Muslims believe this.

'Muhammad began receiving "divine revelations" and his wife's Catholic cousin Waraquah helped interpret them. From this came the Koran.'

Some of Muhammad's writings were placed in the Koran, others were never published. They are now in the hands of high ranking holy men (Ayatollahs) in the Islamic faith.'

"When Cardinal Bea shared with us in the Vatican, he said, these writings are guarded because they contain information that links the Vatican to the creation of Islam. Both sides have so much information on each other, that if exposed, it could create such a scandal that it would be a disaster for both religions.

How the Vatican created Islam
The Prophet
The Prophet comic book
The Prophet scribd

reply to post by logical7

Originally posted by logical7
you have made an initial assumption of Bible being right.

What about your assumption that the Qur'an is right?

Why do people believe that Muhammad was a ‘Prophet'?

Simply because Islam SAYS so....

If Muhammad WAS a ‘Prophet’ why does the Qur'an have no fulfilled prophecy like the Bible?

Because there ARE no fulfilled prophesies from Muhammad.

Muhammad allegedly claimed that the Antichrist, called the Dajjal, was to appear shortly after the Muslim conquest of Constantinople.

Accordingly, the Muslims conquered Jerusalem in AD 636 and Constantinople was taken over by the Muslims in May of AD 1453. Based on the preceding traditions, the antichrist should have manifested himself in December of AD 1453. This never happened!

The only possible conclusion that can be made with respect to this matter is as follows: The prophecies regarding Yathrib (Medina) being in ruins and the Antichrist's arrival to take place seven months after the conquest of Constantinople never materialized. Therefore, Muhammad was a false prophet!

Though the Bible contains numerous proven and supported prophecies, the Koran does not contain any.

Muhammad: The False Prophet

"Perhaps the most compelling of evidences demonstrating that the Bible is the word of God is its unswerving ability to accurately predict future events, often in minute details. Specific prophesies are conspicuously absent from the 26 other religious books that claim to be scripture, including the Muslim's Koran, the Book of Mormon, the Hindu Vedas, and Buddhist writings. This in itself should be a major eye-opener to the honest skeptic. "

Accuracy Of Prophecy

The Bible is proven as the word of God by the fulfillment of Bible prophesies. It is mathematically impossible for all of these prophesies to have just happened by chance. This proves that the people that wrote the Bible were inspired by God, for only God could accurately foretell the future, in detail 100% of the time, and at the same time encourage mankind to obey Him.

Reincarnation Is A Lie

The chances of just 48 out of the 456 prophecies being fulfilled in one person are 1 in 10 to the 157 power.

That's — 1 in 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,
000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,
000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000.

"All this illustrates why it is absolutely impossible for anyone to have fulfilled the Messianic prophecies by chance. In fact, a leading authority on the probability theory, Emile Borel states that once we go past one chance in 10 to the 50th power, the probabilities are so small it's impossible to think they will ever occur."

LINK

"...once we go past one chance in 10 to the 50th power, the probabilities are so small it's impossible to think they will ever occur....Mathematicians generally agree that, statistically, any odds beyond 1 in 1050 have a zero probability of ever happening.... This is Borel's law in action which was derived by mathematician Emil Borel....

Here is one last illustration of the immensity of the number 10 to the 157th power and why the science of probability shows we are dealing with the miraculous… Imagine one ant traveling at the speed of only one inch every 15 billion years. If he could only carry one atom at a time, how many atoms could he move in 10 to the 157th power of years?

He would, even at that incredibly slow speed, be able to move all the atoms in 600,000 trillion trillion trillion trillion universes the size for our universe, a distance of 30 billion light years! Again, by the laws of probability, all of this means that it is simply impossible for 48 prophecies to be fulfilled by chance. LINK

reply to post by Murgatroid

What about your assumption that the Qur'an is right?

i never assumed that. Just not assuming anything and questioning everything.

Why do people believe that
Muhammad was a ‘Prophet'?

it makes sense to people. Many believe in God too, some dont and they all have the same reason "it makes sense." funny! right?

If Muhammad WAS a ‘Prophet’ why does the Qur'an have no fulfilled
prophecy like the Bible?

are you sure of that?

Because there ARE no fulfilled
prophesies from Muhammad.

ever tried to actually look for that? A simple internet search?

Originally posted by logical7

son of God in OT was understood as a pious/just person and prophets are sure pious.
Thats what i am trying to convey. The language of OT is not that literal. Jesus pbuh and his disciples talked in the same way.
At the time of Jesus pbuh, Ceasar had coins which had writting "son of God" for the king. So that concept was not alien. Jesus pbuh is also called king of israel. A king is called son of God in OT meatphorical language.

But we already went over this earlier and I did not disagree. Israel and the nation has been represented or called God's son, ok...so we agree with this and maybe this is a good focal point for a lot of reasons. Because I believe the Quran states nothing of this fact, but yet...you agree, so which is right and which is wrong? Why would God love Israel so much to call it His son on numerous accounts but Israel is mentioned in contrast to that in Quran? The further we go in this discussion the more we are seeing the contradictions in the Quran with comparison to The Bible (as a whole) When I say Bible, I'm speaking of the whole book, from Genesis to Revelation. And we have no even touched Revelation yet, it's a hard book for many firm believers, so it's hard for me as well and will be for you too, but it is no less important because after all...it is The Revelation of Jesus Christ.

reply to post by HoneyBe

Why would God love Israel so much to call it His son on numerous accounts but Israel is mentioned in contrast to that in Quran? The further we go in this discussion the more we are seeing the contradictions in the Quran with comparison to The Bible (as a whole)

OT as its name suggest is old, a better word would be ancient. God did favour Israel in the ancient time, then however the Israel dint respond back to God in kind and OT and the NT point to that later. Qur'an just tells it all in a simplified manner. I however was hoping that we remain on track. When i agree to take Bible in discussions it doesnt mean that you have to use every verse in it to question Qur'an. I can and will answer it easily but it will be a waste of time. In short i'l just use Bible to doubt enough the christian belief. Consider me an atheist/agnostic if that helps you stay on track.

Originally posted by logical7

ok we will leave this. Back to topic, "son of God" a simple basic question, why do any creature/being need an offspring?

I would say so we can pro-create or have someone carry on our name/bloodline.

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by HoneyBe

 

Matthew 16; 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. I do not believe the above passages need me to say anything, they speak for themselves.

no actually, he did call God as Father, but also taught all to do the same in Lord's prayer. Right? Thats just metaphorical. What Jesus pbuh did say to Simon in acknowledgement is again simple that he accepted Jesus as Christ and sent from God and Jesus told him that its not him(simon or his body/mind/understanding) but God in Heaven who guided him. You are assuming that acknowlegement was for "son" too. Its for "Christ" and son of Living God again the same metaphorical language meaning a godly person as i said in previous post.
I however had asked you a 'declarative statement' hope i wouldnt have to clear that again. He called himself son of man all the time, maybe he did that on purpose to not let people get mislead but after he was gone things changed.

I provided you with Jesus' words and Jesus clearly say's "my Father which is in heaven" "My" is possessive of something of someone, Father in this sentence would be the "someone" and "in heaven" is the location and description of the "my Father" Jesus is referring to. So read again without the blinders on, Jesus most certainly claimed then and there not only who he was but also who's son he is. I'm like Simon Peter, you are like some of the others, this too was both literal and prophetic in nature, some would just know and some would doubt always...

But did any of them die for the sins of the world?

Originally posted by logical7
not the topic. Right? Lets not use it unless discussed on a common platform.

No it's on topic with our discussion of miracles, which you brought to the table. Let me just ask you flat out...why are you looking in every other direction for any possible reason you can grab to not believe Jesus is the son of God? In all honesty here, what harm does it do to accept and realize this? You can obviously accept nations and prophet's and anyone else including trees and birds as children of God, so why not Jesus?? Just think about that please before you jump to answer and no need to even answer really. Just ponder on it.

But and however! It is
very interesting you've brought the
meaning of the Son and the Father into
one, maybe you believe more than
you understand

Originally posted by logical7
i know and understand the theology through the eyes of a christian but dont believe it. I also understand an atheist but again i am not one.

I don't believe that you do. You cannot possibly see through the eyes of a "Christian" because you are blinded and have hardened your heart through your own "theology". I don't claim to see through the eyes of a single soul on earth, we are all different even if we are grouped together by society through religion or culture or race etc..You only know what you read and SEE but here and now between the two of us, we are having an intimate discussion and we can try to shatter the walls that separate us, but the walls are very high and very strong, it's going to take a lot more love and alot less preconceived notions for us to even catch one glimpse inside one another's eyes, difficult, but not impossible

Originally posted by logical7
Lets focus on the topic. I did answer many things but you can just answer the "metaphorical vs literal" discussion.

edit on 27-1-2013 by logical7 because: (no reason given)

OK, the topic is...why does the Angel Gabriel deliver two opposing messages to Mary about 600-700 years apart? Did he change his mind on the first message? Was it really Gabriel both time? If so..did he lie to one and tell the truth to another? I know one thing only, God never changes His message and on something so vital as Jesus being His son, I cannot even fathom God saying it and then taking it back. So somewhere between the two messages and time, something is not right. This is my topic and this is my concern. One of us has been lied to.