Abraham - true prophet of God or something else??

reply to post by FlyersFan


and thats after you get passed the fact that he is named for
brahma...

Brahmā (Sanskrit: ब्रह्मा; IAST: Brahmā) is the Hindu god (deva) of creation and one of the Trimūrti

en.wikipedia.org...
but there is a lot of that sort of thing in christianity it appears

FlyersFan
IF IF IF Abraham (of Old Testament Fame) actually existed and that the biblical accounts of his life are recorded accurately from his point of view, there are some questions that need to be asked. My questions - Was Abraham suffering from mental illness? If so/not .. what does that mean to the religions of the Christians, Jews, and Muslims?? Have the Jewish, Christian and Muslim religions candy coated over the fact that one of their big patriarchs could easily have been suffering from a mental illness that caused him to be violent and delusional?? Or is what they say true .. that God was 'testing' Abraham and so he really was a major power player in the plan of God? What do you think?

If he wasn’t mentally ill, what does the story of Abraham tell us about God?

If Abraham was mentally ill, what does that do to the Muslim, Jewish and Christian faiths which hold Abraham up as a prophet of God in their respective religions??

Genesis 22 – “God” tells Abraham to plot to kill his own son. Abraham was going to burn him alive and slit his throat as an offering. He planned the murder and deceived his own son to go on an outing with him in order to lure him to the murder spot. Then, at the last minute, “God” told Abraham not to kill the boy.

Was this a case of dementia suffered by an old man who lead a ‘religious’ life?

Hallucinations and by a religious man with mental health issues?

Insanity and hallucinations due to radiation sickness from the Sodom and Gomorrah ‘brimstone and fire’ that Abraham had just recently witnessed?

Just another murderer wrapped in the cloak of religion?

Genesis 15:12 talks about a ‘dread and great darkness’ falling upon Abraham. Perhaps he had clinical depression of some kind? Paranoia? That coupled with delusions can make someone rather dangerous ...

Genesis 17 is kinda odd .. that whole circumcision thing gets started. I find it rather strange that a God would want human genitalia to get cut up as a sign of his ‘covenant’ with people. But God works in mysterious ways so … who knows??

Was God really testing Abraham?
Was Abraham suffering from a mental health issue?
Was the story just not true, or changed through the thousands of years?

At any rate, if I was Abrahams wife and my son came home after an outing with daddy-dearest and told me the ‘sacrifice story’ .. I’d sure as heck make sure that my child got no where near daddy ever again.

Blah, blah, blah ba bloody blah.

Go read the story again, then re read it.
Was Abraham going to kill his son., or are you just assuming that.

Its one thing to assume, but parrot the same old same old over and over

Read the story for yourself, study the words.

Mental illness? I see the mental illness and its nor Abraham's.

borntowatch
Was Abraham going to kill his son., or are you just assuming that.

Dude .. what part of Abraham hearing voices telling him to murder his kid .. and Abraham catching, tying his child to a sacrificial altar, and trying to murder him don't you get? He was all set to kill the kid but then he again 'heard voices' telling him to stop. His kid was already tied up on the altar and Abraham was fully engaged in the murdering process when he was stopped at the last minute by more 'voices'. Abraham fully intended to sacrifice his son. That's very clear.

Mental illness? I see the mental illness and its nor Abraham's.

You must be looking in a mirror ....

Lets imagine 95% of the worlds population believes that terrorists crashed a plane in to a building, me, I am of the other 5%, why?
I read reports, studied, seeked opinions of those who had different theories.
Came to the conclusion that the main stream view was not 100% correct

Yet when it comes to the bible, those who claim to deny ignorance, accept the main stream view

Power to the sheeple

reply to post by borntowatch


"blah" is an odd word to be refuting a detailed opinion with

in defence of FFs post the logical extension of the maddness in the above post is the relatively modern invasive murderous behaviors of such christian peoples as the british empire, Nazis and more recently the US ( justified by such falsehoods similar to the one mentioned above re 911 )

reply to post by Danbones

A lot of ancient Hindu and Summerian stories got sucked up by the Hebrews and adopted into their own folklore. (which then got adopted by the Christians and Muslims) It wouldn't surprise me if a few of the Hindu names get mixed in as well. Hindu 'god' becomes Hebrew founding father. Could be. We will probably never know for sure in this lifetime.

FlyersFan

borntowatch
Was Abraham going to kill his son., or are you just assuming that.

Dude .. what part of Abraham hearing voices telling him to murder his kid .. and Abraham catching, tying his child to a sacrificial altar, and trying to murder him don't you get? He was all set to kill the kid but then he again 'heard voices' telling him to stop. His kid was already tied up on the altar and Abraham was fully engaged in the murdering process when he was stopped at the last minute by more 'voices'. Abraham fully intended to sacrifice his son. That's very clear.

Mental illness? I see the mental illness and its nor Abraham's.

You must be looking in a mirror ....

Dude, I guess you never read the story, or never studied comprehension

I could be as rude, far ruder than you. fortunately I can also take pity on people like you.
I suggest you take a course on comprehension skills and then read the book.

It is clear if you can do more than read words, try being a Jimmy Rockford and look a little deeper.

reply to post by borntowatch


Irrelevant to the question ....

The question is - does a person hearing voices from 'god', telling him to murder his child on a sacrificial altar, sound like a sane person to you? Considering the advances in mental health care that we have over the superstitious and uneducated peasants of 4,000 years ago ... MY CONCLUSION is that Abraham (if he existed) was probably pious but mentally ill. The Jews, Christians and Muslims all make excuses for his behavior saying 'it prefigures God sacrificing His son Jesus, etc etc .... but they have to otherwise the entire foundation of Judaism and Islam fall apart, and Christianity gets a serious black eye.

reply to post by borntowatch

It's not rude to ask the question ... the question you keep dodging.

The question is - does a person hearing voices from 'god', telling him to murder his child on a sacrificial altar, sound like a sane person to you?

As for the rest of YOUR blah blah blah ... I've read the story more times than I can count. My comprehension is just fine. Obviously better than yours. It doesn't change the facts and the excuses made by the Abrahamic religions for Abrahams behavior don't fly.

Answer the question ... Is a person hearing voices commanding him to kill his children SANE??
If you answer 'yes' ... then I fear for the safety of those around you.

Danbones
reply to post by borntowatch

 

"blah" is an odd word to be refuting a detailed opinion with

in defence of FFs post the logical extension of the maddness in the above post is the relatively modern invasive murderous behaviors of such christian peoples as the british empire, Nazis and more recently the US ( justified by such falsehoods similar to the one mentioned above re 911 )

edit on 22-10-2013 by Danbones because: (no reason given)

blah is efficient and accurate a response to tired old rhetoric, similar answer to your tired old rhetoric.

Is the US a Christian nation???

We can go on but answer that question first, try honesty.


and remember Jews were not Christian, you seem confused.

reply to post by FlyersFan


good point FF
BTW just to continue the theme
Manitou is also a sanskrit word ..the name of the first pharoah AKA our lord Amen....
Angels have the god An as root word
The cartouch "reeds and basket" belong to the adopted king Amen's father Zargon the great...that story later appears in reference to Moses

...so there is a suspect trend of borrowing in a lot of religions.

I'm going to guess the story is a general diatribe against the human sacrificing of humans, especially one's own children, which would help gain adherants vs the religions oof the day that employed child sacrifice

FlyersFan
reply to post by borntowatch

 

It's not rude to ask the question ... the question you keep dodging.

The question is - does a person hearing voices from 'god', telling him to murder his child on a sacrificial altar, sound like a sane person to you?

As for the rest of YOUR blah blah blah ... I've read the story more times than I can count. My comprehension is just fine. Obviously better than yours. It doesn't change the facts and the excuses made by the Abrahamic religions for Abrahams behavior don't fly.

Answer the question ... Is a person hearing voices commanding him to kill his children SANE??
If you answer 'yes' ... then I fear for the safety of those around you.

edit on 10/22/2013 by FlyersFan because: (no reason given)

Not even a please?

I didnt dodge the answer, I told you to seek it.
Google is your friend

Its fine to post a question but lazy to demand answers

If you struggle I am more than happy to point you in a direction that will assist.

For mine your question doesnt require an answer, your opinion is rock solid and unchallengeable. I am thinking wasted pearls.

borntowatch

FlyersFan
IF IF IF Abraham (of Old Testament Fame) actually existed and that the biblical accounts of his life are recorded accurately from his point of view, there are some questions that need to be asked. My questions - Was Abraham suffering from mental illness? If so/not .. what does that mean to the religions of the Christians, Jews, and Muslims?? Have the Jewish, Christian and Muslim religions candy coated over the fact that one of their big patriarchs could easily have been suffering from a mental illness that caused him to be violent and delusional?? Or is what they say true .. that God was 'testing' Abraham and so he really was a major power player in the plan of God? What do you think?

If he wasn’t mentally ill, what does the story of Abraham tell us about God?

If Abraham was mentally ill, what does that do to the Muslim, Jewish and Christian faiths which hold Abraham up as a prophet of God in their respective religions??

Genesis 22 – “God” tells Abraham to plot to kill his own son. Abraham was going to burn him alive and slit his throat as an offering. He planned the murder and deceived his own son to go on an outing with him in order to lure him to the murder spot. Then, at the last minute, “God” told Abraham not to kill the boy.

Was this a case of dementia suffered by an old man who lead a ‘religious’ life?

Hallucinations and by a religious man with mental health issues?

Insanity and hallucinations due to radiation sickness from the Sodom and Gomorrah ‘brimstone and fire’ that Abraham had just recently witnessed?

Just another murderer wrapped in the cloak of religion?

Genesis 15:12 talks about a ‘dread and great darkness’ falling upon Abraham. Perhaps he had clinical depression of some kind? Paranoia? That coupled with delusions can make someone rather dangerous ...

Genesis 17 is kinda odd .. that whole circumcision thing gets started. I find it rather strange that a God would want human genitalia to get cut up as a sign of his ‘covenant’ with people. But God works in mysterious ways so … who knows??

Was God really testing Abraham?
Was Abraham suffering from a mental health issue?
Was the story just not true, or changed through the thousands of years?

At any rate, if I was Abrahams wife and my son came home after an outing with daddy-dearest and told me the ‘sacrifice story’ .. I’d sure as heck make sure that my child got no where near daddy ever again.

Blah, blah, blah ba bloody blah.

Go read the story again, then re read it.
Was Abraham going to kill his son., or are you just assuming that.

Its one thing to assume, but parrot the same old same old over and over

Read the story for yourself, study the words.

Mental illness? I see the mental illness and its nor Abraham's.

Lets all read the story... shall we?

22 And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am.

2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

3 And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and saddled his ass, and took two of his young men with him, and Isaac his son, and clave the wood for the burnt offering, and rose up, and went unto the place of which God had told him.

4 Then on the third day Abraham lifted up his eyes, and saw the place afar off.

5 And Abraham said unto his young men, Abide ye here with the ass; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you.

6 And Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering, and laid it upon Isaac his son; and he took the fire in his hand, and a knife; and they went both of them together.

7 And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?

8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

9 And they came to the place which God had told him of; and Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar upon the wood.

10 And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.

11 And the angel of the Lord called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.

12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son.

14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the Lord it shall be seen.

15 And the angel of the Lord called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time,

16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the Lord, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:

17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;

18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

19 So Abraham returned unto his young men, and they rose up and went together to Beersheba; and Abraham dwelt at Beersheba.


Sounds like voices in his head to me... Grabbed his son, tossed him on the alter after he was "bound" and was just about to kill him, then an angel came and stopped him...

Further more this "god" says, "hey I like you Abraham, you should have children"

even those "faith" isn't genetic, yet psychotic tendencies are...

Your attacks on Flyersfan are uncalled for...

reply to post by borntowatch


well jews are not christians, but can be construed as proto christians ( the old testiment obviously being the first half of the christian bible) but then christians in many varieties are expected to take the whole bible literaly

...and if I had a nickle for every christian ( unless you are new to ATS, you have read those opinions thousands of times too), that has said the US is a christian nation...when it suits them to say so...

that "burnt offering" bit from AK's post above...
now where do we hear that phrase...again and again and again

borntowatch
I didnt dodge the answer, I told you to seek it.

I already know the answer. You are dodging it.

Its fine to post a question but lazy to demand answers

If you refuse to answer the question ... then get off the thread.
All you are doing is preaching instead of discussing the topic.
Answer the question or be gone with you.

Again ... Does a person hearing voices from 'god' .. voices that demand they kill their child and then sacrifice the body on a altar of fire ... sound like a sane person to you? YES or NO?

If you struggle...

Nope. Not at all.

Akragon
Sounds like voices in his head to me... Grabbed his son, tossed him on the alter after he was "bound" and was just about to kill him, then an angel came and stopped him...

Yep. Thanks for posting the entire story. IF it happened at all .. which is questionable .. it was pretty clear that Abraham fully intended to make 'God' happy by murdering his child .. his child who was most likely scared out of his mind that his father lied to him and lured him out into the countryside; his father who caught him and tied him up on a fire filled sacrificial altar; his father who only stopped at the last minute because more 'voices' told him to.

Is that the behavior of a sane person??
Answer ... HELL NO.

reply to post by FlyersFan


The madness defence was used by that gal in Texas who was on SSRIs, and who drowned all her children because god told her to...

reply to post by FlyersFan

FlyersFan
Have you?? Abraham thought God ordered him to murder his child. Abraham thought that God would be happy with the sacrifice. And anyone who is tied up and about to be murdered would be scared.

From this and that other thread, it seems you have a bit of a loose way with words. See, what you said here doesn't match what you said earlier:

FlyersFan
God would be happy about a parent murdering a scared child and burning up the body in an offering

I prefer being exact myself. The only way we can communicate on these forums is through words, and if we treat them loosely, there is no meaning.

FlyersFan
Yes, they were written by those to whom the eyewitness accounts were dictated to. Example - It's the only way Luke could have known the thoughts of Mary .. if he had actually heard the story from Mary herself.

Or the far far far more likely: "Luke" (whoever wrote the Gospel of Luke) made it up.

FlyersFan
Of course Jesus said that Abraham would be in Heaven. Abrahams mental illness and his murder attempt wouldn't mean that he was an evil person. Mentally ill people can't help their illness any more than a person with prostrate cancer can help that they have cancer.

Yes? What will you talk about with this mentally ill "beloved of God", mentioned so positively in the Bible (so that Jesus being his descendant was proof of his Messiahship, calling himself a "Son of Abraham" and calling God the "God of Abraham", and admonishing his followers for not behaving like Abraham) when you're sitting and feasting (a very earthly pleasure) with him? Considering that his behaviour is so wrong (and yet so prevalently known and admired in Jesus's time) it is interesting how he didn't say anything about it, despite how so much other Old Testament stuff he turned on its head.
So...are all visions Abraham had of God false? Or just the ones that are unpleasant? Because the New Testament talks of Abraham's covenant with God, God's promise to Abraham, God telling Abraham things, God appearing to Abraham, all in a very positive light.

You didn't quite answer my question about what books of the NT you accept, considering that James speaks positively of Abraham as well (specifically his sacrifice), I guess you throw that out too. Romans talked about Abraham being justified by his faith in God (referencing the Binding of Isaac), so you'd throw that out too. Acts refers to him positively as well, since the author is the same as the Gospel of Luke, do you throw that out as well, or cling to it because you think he heard "eyewitness testimony" from Mary? Galatians also speaks as to the righteousness of Abraham for what he did, so that is out, does that mean all of Paul's writings are out? So does the Epistle to the Hebrews, so that is out. 1 Peters speaks of Abraham's wife calling him "Lord", I don't suppose you agree with that, so all of Peter is tossed out too.

reply to post by babloyi

calling himself a "Son of Abraham"

hmm... He didn't call himself the son of Abraham...

That was the author's of the books... and they weren't quoting him

reply to post by FlyersFan


God works with His servents spiritually (in the mind) He taught them spiritual lessons through physical examples throughout the old testament, since Jesus Christ (the Passover) had not yet come to pay the price for the sins of mankind; an action required for God's spirit (mind) to dwell in sinful mankind. God had to work with the old testament servents uniquely.

This OP is an example of applying physical human reasoning to a spiritual lesson from God to one of His servants, meant ony to be understood in spirit and in truth by those servants of God with His spirit dwelling in their minds.

The sacrifice God implied was required of Abraham is the EXACT SAME SACRIFICE God made for all mankind! In fact it was on the DAY OF PASSOVER in Abraham's day that this sacrifice was made manifest.

In order for God to set aside a physical tribe of mankind (descendants of Abraham) to be worked with directly from God for a great purpose (Israel) in this age, God required a single man willing to make the exact same sacrifice God Himself is willing to make so the world can be blessed.

On Passover Day (14th of Abib) in Abraham's day, God required the sacrifice of his (Abraham's) only son (Isaac) for the forgivness of sins and for a blessing on all mankind.

On Passover Day (14th of Abib) in Moses' day, God required the sacrifice of a lamb without blemish (first born) for the forgiveness of sins and for a blessing on all mankind, so a nation could be free from physical slavery.

On Passover Day (14th of Abib) in Jesus' day, God sacrificed His only son (Jesus Christ) who was the "Lamb from God, who takes away the sins of the world" by having him hung on a pole, and his blood spilt to the Earth; for the forgivness of sins and a blessing on all mankind, so all nations can in time become free for spiritual slavery to sin.

God's children must learn to think like God in order to have "this mind be in you that was in Christ Jesus". God was teaching His servant Abraham how to think like Him regarding life and death.

God is in control of both life and death, He can bring life, destroy life and bring it back to life according to his eternal will. Abraham, who is recorded as the most faithful man in this age, trusted God as giver and taker of death so much so he was willing to sacrifice his only son in humble obedience to the prefect God of creation. knowing that if it is God's will, his son would be brought back to life, it was not God's will to bring him back, then Abraham said "not my will, but God's will be done on Earth"... amen.

The understanding of the purpose of the Passover sacrifice is the begining of understanding the nature and mind of the Eternal. All those who faithfully keep the commandments of God, understand the blessing of the Passover and are daily reminded of it's need in God's plan for the salvation of all mankind over time.

The last supper was not just the last meal Jesus ate, it was the Passover meal (night portion) prior to the sacrifice he would fulfill later that day (day portion). And Abraham's willing sacrifice of Isaac was not just another day in the year, it was the Passover, they are paralel if you have eyes to see; and God was successful in righteously judging Abraham as faithful in spirit and in truth.

God Bless,