Neanderthals were more advanced than us. THEY were one of the megalithic cultures of the remote past

Originally posted by ProfessorAlfB
So the blast furnaces were found in Ohio, USA? If so, your theory is dead in the water then because Neanderthals never made it to America!
BTW, blonde hair is NOT red hair! DNA tests on Tutankamun and other related Pharoes show them to be of the Caucasian race so the blonde hair is not really supprising...However, it was a big shock to those that favoured the "black Pharoe" theory!

You say they never made it the Americas......

Previous research has revealed that Neanderthal DNA can be found in the genomes of everyone who isn't of African extraction. But, as Pääbo said, "The Denisovans had contributed DNA only to people in Papua New Guinea, Fiji, Australia, and other places in Melanesia." In other words, modern humans entering Asia interbred with Denisovans. But the Denisovan DNA didn't wind up circulating to other areas of the world the way Neanderthal DNA did.

However, looking at the Denisovan genome allowed researchers to discern a greater amount of Neanderthal DNA in Asians and Native Americans than there is in Europeans. This suggests one of two things about how humans spread across the globe. First, it might mean that modern humans coming out of Africa formed families with Neanderthals in Europe, then their children slowly drifted to Asia. There, those mixed children formed families with other groups of Neanderthals in Asia, giving their children a higher percentage of Neanderthal DNA. Eventually, the offspring of these people traveled to the Americas, becoming the founder population for the peoples of North and South America.

io9.com...

MORE neanderthal DNA in Asia and the Americas?....more?, how could that be?

Yes, Virginia, there is a Neanderthal fossil record in America. And apparently a Neanderthal hybrid fossil record.

No genetics publication has put all the evidence together: the genetics establishment is still in denial about most things Neanderthal. The evidence is scattered and mostly unrecognized, but, in our opinion, conclusive and compulsive. Consider the following article:

Frank L'Engle Williams and Gail E. Krovitz,

Abstract
Since the nineteenth century, researchers have noted that Neandertal and modern human adults differ in mental foramen position, although the ontogenetic changes in the position of this feature have only recently come under the scrutiny of paleoanthropologists.

Research on mental foramen position has focused on whether this feature is inferior to a particular tooth. However, tooth position may not be a reliable indicator of mental foramen position because of variability in tooth size within and between taxa and during eruption events. As opposed to observing the mental foramen with respect to the postcanine teeth, we examined linear distances from the mental foramen to other mandibular landmarks. Modern human adults may appear truncated, or paedomorphic, in mental foramen position with respect to Neandertal adults. However, infants of the two taxa differ substantially in anterior mandibular form.

The initial differences in the shape of the mental region may be related to the embryological position of the mental foramen in modern humans and its role in the development of the mental trigone. The shape changes that accrue thereafter, possibly from faster mandibular growth rates in Neandertals, further distinguish the adults from one another.

Although mandibular shape differences exist from early infancy onwards, adults of the two taxa are broadly similar in bi-mental foramen breadth with respect to mandibular size. For this reason, qualitative assessments of mental foramen position may provide less taxonomic information than previously thought.

dnaconsultants.com...

The mental foramen is one of two holes ("foramina") located on the anterior surface of the mandible. It permits passage of the mental nerve and vessels. The mental foramen descends slightly in edentulous individuals.

wiki

A mental foramen is a small hole in the mandible whose purpose is to allow passage of nerves and vessels to the brain and probably also to relieve tension during chewing and gnawing. It has been identified as a sign of archaic humans, including Neanderthals.

dnaconsultants.com...


Line drawing of Neanderthal male ©DNA Consultants.

It may be that they did not make a meaningful migration as PURE Neanderthal at that point, but they WERE there. They also may have went at a time when they had taken mixed groups with primitive homo-sapiens in order to survive.

also

I never said they were exclusively red heads...I said red and blond hair....I went with red since it is more of a rarity among us with only 2-5% of us having red hair globally. Among neanderthal, it was MUCH more prevalent so it is easier to track them using it as a historical anchor of sorts. A common trait they passed along to their chosen homo-sapien rulers they installed, as well a visible trait natives would identify about their gods. They DID have blond hair as well. Over all they had NORDIC features.....

On a side note, a red head who comes in where I work all the time told me of her time working in Africa and how the natives practically worshiped her.....lol. She said they almost venerated the ground she walked on instinctively. All for her long fire red hair. She liked it....

I didnt want to get into the genetics side of proof to this theory yet, but I guess there really is no difference if I do it now and as I go.

Well as I stated before that IMO cro-magnon was a hybrid of neanderthal and homo-sapien....

I think that is the case, but specifically those that were in Europe and the middle east were IMO slightly artificial at first. They would have bred like the rest of the other species, but their initial stock was different. I am not saying cro-magnon is NOT us. They were incorporated, but initially they were to be a separate species, and were to be used to refine neanderthal DNA.

IMO Neanderthal DNA needed to be altered by them for their continued survival on this planet after it all went to hell. I think that something about what happened left them with too few of their people to remain a genetically viable people, or they needed a treatment they had access to before their civilization collapsed and so they were forced to look to diversify their genetic base.

The reason why I wanted to avoid the talk of genetics, is because I intend to prove to the best of my abillities that there has been a group of neanderthal early on who had access to the high technology their enitre race once enjoyed. They were the ruling elite of their people, and their descendants have had to keep their secrets to see this global genetic experiment along.

In the beginning they were pure breads. NOW, after some successes, they have managed to incorporate the refined homo-sapein DNA they have been working on into their genetic base and are a healthy and stable people.

I think they also engineered us, but did so back when their civilization was at its peak.

This is going to be nearly impossible to prove and so I wanted to leave it for last. Also I am not well versed in genetics. I wanted to do a crash coarse over a couple of months but hell, I can just do what I can as I can.

so, first the cro-magnon issue. Their artificiality. I will now gather up all my notes on them, organize them and post when I think I can explain myself....I will post it all when I am ready.

Thanks for sticking around.

"The Oldest Known Symbol

The swastika is an ancient symbol that has been used for over 3,000 years. (That even predates the ancient Egyptian symbol, the Ankh!)"

No it doesn't...Egytian Hieroglyphs go back as far as 14,000 years so the Ankh is far, far older than the Swastika!
I have searched and found that there is not a single reference anywhere to a Neanderthal fossil ever being dug up in the Americas.
You are pretty loose with the copy and paste, but are you even reading what you are posting?
Your text already explains why there is more Neanderthal DNA in the indigenous American Indians (IAI's) than in Europeans...Because they are of Asian extraction.
The thing is, despite their totally incorrect use of the term "first nations", the IAI's were not the first people in the Americas (The Salutreans from Western Europe, white Caucasians, were there many thousands of years before the Asians got there...They were the so called pre-Clovis and Clovis peoples, that go as far back as 40,000 years in the Americas.
They were accomplished sea-fairing hunters, that hunted in small open boats rather like the Inuits/Eskimos of today.
They got to America by simply following the transatlantic ice bridge that existed between the two continents, on long hunting expeditions, during the long ice age that lasted from about 1 million years ago to about 10,000 years ago.
The Salutreans were modern Home Sapeins Sapiens and therefore they all carried Neanderthal DNA markers within them.
The IAI's came to America via a completely route...Via the ice bridge at the Bering straight and at a later era, and they had even more Neanderthal DNA within them, for the reasons stated in you text.

op

how do you know they want a 'volunteer' ? for their genetic project.

it seems most of this kind of stuff is done in secret dark labs.

i would not be surprised if this public request was put our there in the public for a reason but the truth of it is;

they will do it or have done it already in a dark lab somewhere.

this world is filled with missing persons reports that go un investigated and un solved. there are millions of them every year.

just throwing this out there

Originally posted by zedVSzardoz
reply to post by TheComte

 

red hair is HUGE. Very important.

it has been documented almost every where on earth of finding red haired tall skeletal remains....or stories of red haired giants...

Legends of Giants and the Native Americans
Giants appear in many other legends, including those of people indigenous to what is now the United States (more often known as Native Americans).

Nations that inhabited the Northeastern and Southwestern parts of the country often spoke of a race of "red haired" giants. One of these legends includes that of the Paiute tribe that was predominant in the southwest area of Arizona, Nevada, and Utah. The legend says the giants (also known as “Si-Te-Cah”) existed before the tribe migrated there thousands of years ago. Si-Te-Cah means "tule eaters" which is a plant that grows underwater. These giants were said to be twelve feet in stature with flaming bright red hair, and are generally described as menacing.

kentuckyslone.hubpages.com...


there are so many references all over the planet I dont even know where to begin....


What if they are just throwbacks or remnants of other branches of humanities genetic family tree?

We know that size and relative intelligence can be VASTLY different between primates.....we know it has been so for our supposed linear progression of evolution. What if we just widen the spectrum to include those specimens that time has destroyed or that we have yet to find.

What if our ability of thought and reason, (intelligence) is not anchored to a linear progression as well? what if it might have been greater at one point and have lessened since?

edit on 21-1-2013 by zedVSzardoz because: (no reason given)

I'm 6'6" and weigh 300 lbs and have red hair

but I'm dumb

so close

Originally posted by syrinx high priest

Originally posted by zedVSzardoz
reply to post by TheComte

 

red hair is HUGE. Very important.

it has been documented almost every where on earth of finding red haired tall skeletal remains....or stories of red haired giants...

Legends of Giants and the Native Americans
Giants appear in many other legends, including those of people indigenous to what is now the United States (more often known as Native Americans).

Nations that inhabited the Northeastern and Southwestern parts of the country often spoke of a race of "red haired" giants. One of these legends includes that of the Paiute tribe that was predominant in the southwest area of Arizona, Nevada, and Utah. The legend says the giants (also known as “Si-Te-Cah”) existed before the tribe migrated there thousands of years ago. Si-Te-Cah means "tule eaters" which is a plant that grows underwater. These giants were said to be twelve feet in stature with flaming bright red hair, and are generally described as menacing.

kentuckyslone.hubpages.com...


there are so many references all over the planet I dont even know where to begin....


What if they are just throwbacks or remnants of other branches of humanities genetic family tree?

We know that size and relative intelligence can be VASTLY different between primates.....we know it has been so for our supposed linear progression of evolution. What if we just widen the spectrum to include those specimens that time has destroyed or that we have yet to find.

What if our ability of thought and reason, (intelligence) is not anchored to a linear progression as well? what if it might have been greater at one point and have lessened since?

edit on 21-1-2013 by zedVSzardoz because: (no reason given)

I'm 6'6" and weigh 300 lbs and have red hair

but I'm dumb

so close

Well the Si-Te-Cah were dumb too...It was all that Tule they were smoking!

reply to post by ProfessorAlfB


You are absolutely incorrect. The swastika has been found in almost ALL cultures around the globe and is associated with flood stories and is a solar symbol. EVEN if all I was doing is copy and pasting as you suggest at least I am copying and pasting THE CORRECT information. I mean did you even TRY to research that or are you just taking the nay sayer route without even checking what you are trying to disprove? I thought you were going to be a positive influence on this thread but honestly I am going to ignore you like I am Harte if you only chime in to say "NO you are incorrect."


It is in the dead sea scrolls sand scrit, it is in vedic texts, it is a Buddhist symbol, a Mayan symbol, and ancient African religious symbol, Chinese, Japanese, Hopi, ALL from the remote past. NO I will not supply sources to that, THAT is common knowledge, and honestly I am starting to think you made that profile just to influence this thread. I think you are actually another member who just made this supposed professor account just to veer this thread into nonsense with the routine ancient alien disinfo.
Dont think I didnt notice.

ancienthistory.about.com...

By the way, What exactly are you a professor of? Not history, that much is certain.

I am still trying to explain my theory. You guys are walking into the kitchen and eating raw dough and saying what crappy bread I make.....hold on, or at least challenge me on a more developed part of the theory. The rest I am still trying to gather up supporting evidence for and articulate in a way everyone can understand. This isn't even for the scholarly, they had their chance while at school. THIS IS FOR EVERYONE ELSE.....

Second, I said that Neanderthal probably entered the Americas as an already mixed group. YOU are saying that I said they came as pure bloods. I did not. Also, the fact that there is more DNA evidence of Neanderthal in the Americas instead of EUROPE, where they spent MOST OF THEIR EXISTENCE, speaks volumes. That should not be the case. I did read what I posted. It points to BEYOND genetic markers, and suggests an ALMOST pure blooded Neanderthal population coming into the Americas.

If you look to the fossil records available you will see NEANDERTHAL skull features in almost all ancient American skulls. NOT genetic markers which of coarse are there,BUT outright Neanderthal traits as well. You would then have to argue that they are not Neanderthal for them not being pure bloods. That would be like arguing that Barack Obama is not an African American.

They did mix by the time they went into the Americas. UNLIKE them mixing with cro-magnon which if I am ever allowed to keep the flow of this thread I will get to and possibly show you all something you did not know before.
For some reason Neanderthal DID NOT mix with cro-magnon as much as the current theory would expect. They DID chose to mix with homo-sapiens.

I know, WE ALL know the supposed story of the migration over magical ice bridges....walking across continents with children and elderly, in blizzards and dead land for thousands of miles.....

because the sea faring skills that we are starting to know they had were just forgotten of during the migrations...?

When we discover physical evidence of their passage over the ice sheets, I will believe the official story. In the mean time I will go with ancient sea fairers....until then it is just a THEORY, like mine. NOT FACT.

So just to let you know, I will ignore ALL posts about aliens, the parroting of the official story as if we didn't all know it already and find ourselves here for the retarded and half assed nature of it.

I think it is a lie, hence this thread....you dont?...fine...but leave me to finish explaining my theory....

It is a real shame too, I thought you were going to collaborate, not become a Harte 2.0 with his strawmen and his twisting of words.....and his BS....

I dont want the official story. I know it. I am looking for out of the box answers to discrepancies the official story has with available evidence.

reply to post by syrinx high priest


my good friend is a 6,5 tall Irish guy. He thought he was dumb too, because everyone expected him to be dumb for his size.....he just took them at their word......until he realized it was all conditioning...then he got his IQ tested....and he is REALLY smart it turns out. REALLY SMART...

I recommend you start thinking of yourself as not some big fool....you may be smarter than you think....study some and do some mental exercise, you may surprise yourself. Also, believe in yourself. NEVER say, "I am dumb"...compared to whom?

reply to post by ProfessorAlfB

Well the Si-Te-Cah were dumb too...It was all that Tule they were smoking!

did you really just say that?

I am now absolutely certain you are not a professor of anything and are just here having some fun. I doubt you even buy the Alien theory you tried to sell me on before.....

Did you make that profile just to play around in this thread?


For everyone else....

www.freerepublic.com...

Originally posted by zedVSzardoz

reply to post by ProfessorAlfB

Well the Si-Te-Cah were dumb too...It was all that Tule they were smoking!

did you really just say that?

I am now absolutely certain you are not a professor of anything and are just here having some fun. I doubt you even buy the Alien theory you tried to sell me on before.....




Just proving I have a sense of humour...Where is yours?

Your whole theory, as the title of your OP clearly suggests, hinges on your belief that Neanderthals were more intelligent than modern Homo Sapiens Sapiens, yet you then go on to post the link above which shows clear evidence to the contrary!

Quote:
“It should be noted that we are not implying that Neanderthal evolved his superior intelligence (and brain size) in order to produce these tools for his survival. Undoubtedly, these tools were unnecessary, because we know that not all Neanderthals used the complex Mousterian "Levallois" technology. Some, such as those living on the plains of La Quina, did not. Instead, these Neanderthals used Oldowan technology that was possibly "inferior" to much of that that which is associated with homo erectus[20]. This technology was described as "asymmetrical" and without "beauty."[21] This must really drive a needle in to the thumb of those archaeologists who associate Neanderthals with intelligence on the basis of their technology, and who consider technology to be the "holy grail" of human ach-+ievement. Interestingly, the La Quina specimens are unique in that they all possessed chins[22], despite being quite primitive in behavior and possessing the largest bodymass of all Neanderthals, approximately 83kg on average at a height of around 160cm.[23]”

It appears that you have also made an assumption that the ancient red headed race of “exceptionally tall stature” were Neanderthals…But since when has an average height of 1.6m (about 5 foot 4 inches) ever been seen as exceptionally tall?
You also assume that Cro-Magnon man is a separate species from Homo Sapiens Sapiens, ignoring the fact that academia now believes they are one and the same species…They now call them “Anatomically Modern Humans” (AMH), or “Early Modern Humans”' (EMH).
Their average height was about 1.762m (5 foot 9 inches) making them noticeably taller than Neanderthals.
You also assume that Neanderthals lorded it over the EMH's and that the latter were subservient to them, conveniently ignoring the fact that the taller a person is, the more fear and respect he usually commands.
Given their greater stature then it is extremely unlikely that tall, proud EMH’s would have bowed down to the noticeably shorter Neanderthals!

reply to post by ProfessorAlfB


and your whole theory hinges on aliens......

when I am done you can pick it apart. Until then you will have to wait. I will not post anything else until it is complete and ready for this level of scrutiny. I am still developing it, and I all I get is "the official story says this, and that"....Orthodoxy is not an element of this thread or even this site. I would prefer collaboration not anal retentiveness.....

so you are going to have to wait a few months. If you didnt just make that profile to play around in this thread, then that will be no problem. If you did, find a new interest. ATS has lots of subjects to cover.....

Originally posted by zedVSzardoz
reply to post by syrinx high priest

 

my good friend is a 6,5 tall Irish guy. He thought he was dumb too, because everyone expected him to be dumb for his size.....he just took them at their word......until he realized it was all conditioning...then he got his IQ tested....and he is REALLY smart it turns out. REALLY SMART...

I recommend you start thinking of yourself as not some big fool....you may be smarter than you think....study some and do some mental exercise, you may surprise yourself. Also, believe in yourself. NEVER say, "I am dumb"...compared to whom?

kind words thank you.... I was trying to make a funny. My red comes from the norwegians, mom traced our ancestors to about 50 miles south of the arctic circle. fancy myself a viking I do

I feel at home in 5 degree weather and winter afternoons have always had a special feel to me. might be one of those collective subconscious thingys ?

anywho interesting thread, thanks for posting it !

reply to post by zedVSzardoz


Interesting hypothesis. Personally, I think they were simply another race of humans, as the DNA evidence seems to indicate. Inter-breeding means they were human, like us. There are some differences in the races alive today, so there is no reason to assume some other race would not also have distinctive differences. Of course, most of us carry some Neanderthal DNA, so they are more "absorbed" than extinct.

Neanderthals are BEYOND ignorantly misconstrued..Their legacy and ways- disfigured, belittled, and disparaged.. They are constantly defamed and idiotically ridiculed, portrayed in grossly idiotic ways, anything from being hairy primitive oafs, to being stupid, apish brutes.. All of the above is beyond unreal to me, it is unreal how misconstrued such things are, and how ignorantly they are portrayed,,

The TRUTH is -- Neanderthals utilized language and tools, played musical instruments, possessed strong social ties, and practiced religious rites. Their brains were 13% larger than ours, and they were very intelligent. If you know anything about the ice-age or the climate that they survived and flourished in, you would realize the smarts and power that they needed to have, and did, to survive. Contrary to some mainstream anthropologists, it is being more and more accepted and realized that many humans today are not all that different looking than neanderthals. Also, of course, we are related to them.

Originally posted by MysterX
reply to post by zedVSzardoz

 

That could be so.

Neanderthals (according to mainstream) are around 300ky - 400ky older than 'anatomically modern humans', so have had at least twice as long as we did to establish themselves.

They certainly interbred with humans or else we all would not now be carrying around their DNA in our Genes..which also means intimate if not extensive social interaction.

It's not at all improbable we learnt from them, as they were more advanced than we were at the time.

Who knows, 50kya - 100kya our early ancestors may even have considered Neanderthals as Gods.

I'll add to that the Norse and Irish legends of old speaking about giants and them being pursued etc. Sometimes there was a meeting of minds as well though, but other times it could be a brutal clash!

reply to post by zedVSzardoz


A bigger computer doesn't necessarily mean more power!
They may have had bigger brains because they were learning the building blocks of surviving for us?

Babies have disproportionate heads because they have to learn the basics too like, balance and walking and stuff before they can start "studying" further into adulthood and more advanced living.

Neanderthals were basic humans who hadn't "thought" about thinking in more detail because they didn't have a complex enough neurological network to stop and wonder, what if? To make the network bigger.

Obviously someone did at one point though... or did they?

I think it's far more likely that a different galactic dwelling life-form just applied a few modifications over the years lol.

The reason being: I don't get how only one specific species (Humans) on Earth has advanced so much over all the others?

How long were the dinosaurs around for before they went bye bye?

How long have we been around? Since they were gone.

Why were they not far more advanced than us? They were around A LOT longer than we've been so far!

Evolution doesn't make sense... Intervention, however, does.


~ CrzayFool

reply to post by crzayfool


I was going to wait to reply for the moment when I have all I am putting together ready, but I wanted to reply to you before your post got buried since that may be a while from now.

Neanderthals were basic humans who hadn't "thought" about thinking in more detail because they didn't have a complex enough neurological network to stop and wonder, what if? To make the network bigger.

Thing is this image we have of neanderthal is ALL IMPLIED. We dont know what their neurological centers looked like. We have the box it came in but we cant tell how complex it was from just that. What we can tell is that:

1. they probably saw better then us. the occipital bun in the back of the head housed larger "seeing hardware".

2. Their language centers were smaller BUT that had been proven to not even affect their ability to have complex language. They may have had more complex forms of language that did not rely on our language structure. If they spoke in a series of buzzing sounds, lets say, yet had as complex if not more complex thoughts being expressed as us, wouldnt that make them just as smart as us?

Would an alien language be dumber than ours just because it used different syntax?

There are other areas that were more advanced in one or the other when comparing us and them, like smell and what not.

All we can be certain of is that their personality would have been different than ours. They were hard wired for one type of personality while we are hard wired for another. We can say they were different that is all. They may be more advanced in many things, like seeing in the dark as I mentioned. They are theorized to have hunted at night and so been able to share food supply with other hominids that hunted during the day for example.

We can GUESS that they had less complex brains than ours, but that is just silly to say it MUST be so. How so? Where is the evidence, let alone the proof.

There is evidence that they were sentient beings that were as complex as us, and in some respects MORE advanced.

Hell they probably taught us to bury our dead and their form of religion /spirituality. maybe even music, and certain hunting techniques...Who knows.

have a good one.

news.discovery.com...

reply to post by zedVSzardoz


I understand where you are coming from. There is no hard evidence to prove they were any less or more advance with inside their heads. That said, I liken what you have stated with black people. African tribal black people to be specific... not the weaker, less adapted, hybrid city dwellers of today.

Take a look at how they are made,

1. Bigger, more protruding eyes - Good for spotting prey / predators.
2. Bigger nostrils - Good for sniffing out prey / predators.
3. Bigger ears - Good for hearing prey / predators.
4. Naturally denser bones, tougher skin, more muscular - If all those more acute senses fail when attacking or being attacked they have a better chance of survival by being able to take a lot more physical punishment.
The same as Neanders, no?

The languages, I believe, would be similar too. There is mildly complex language there but it lacks the syntax and phonology of the western world of today. I think this is primarily because they don't have trivial s**t to talk about and will probably converse about far more pressing matters like,

'Holy crap there's and effing Lion over there!' or 'Where are we going to hunt today, to survive?'

I'm not saying the Neanderthals or Black African tribes are stupid by any means... both of them have very unique qualities, some of which myself and you are not capable of. So in a sense that would mean in some areas they are more advanced! What I'm trying to get at is that they don't have to think about what we have to think about, so it stands to reason that the neurological network didn't and doesn't have to be as complex as ours??

A person who has to carry out the same task day in day out, albeit fighting with a Lion, a Gazelle or an Elephant, will not have the need to make complex networks within their brain as they have already "solved" the problem the first time they succeeded. Ok they might adapt it a little bit but, it will still fundamentally be the same solution.

This is how I come to the conclusion that they were simpler. Obviously it is still only opinion though.


~ CrzayFool