The titles of Allah and the Bible.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by kingofmd

 

Islam didn't crop up until 600+ years of the new testament being completed.

The Jews reject Christianity for the same exact reason... that it cropped up ages after the Torah.
Your own argument can be used against Christianity as well.

The bible does speak about false gods, and the people that serve them

The very purpose of the OP was to compare the attributes of the God of the Koran with the descriptions of God in the Bible. Seems to be a 100% match.

edit on 19-1-2013 by sk0rpi0n because: (no reason given)

edit on 19-1-2013 by sk0rpi0n because: (no reason given)

Until humans have quantified all that is god and understood all that is god then all views of god are lies/simplifications since they do not tell the whole story and are too unspecific. Accepting that you do not know the whole truth is not a failure but a starting point where you understand that you need to seek more information/understanding.

But then a human brain do not have that much processing power and the brain might not be as perfect/advanced as some people want to believe. If it was created to be "perfect" (and what is perfection anyway) then why would you get people talking in tounges.

Originally posted by smithjustinb
Yeah. Allah is in the Bible. Different name. Same god

No. Not at all.

The Christian God is a trinity God ... Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

The Muslim god was invented by Muhammad and he plagiarised the stories and the names from the Christians. He added it to his newly made up religion in order to sucker in people to think that it was the same God. But it's not. Not even close.

Originally posted by logical7
So what exactly did he benifit from all the things you claim he did?

1 - I don't 'claim' that he did anything. I'm stating emotionless FACTS.

- Muhammad provided NO PROOF that his so-called visions were really from God.
- The stories he put in the Qu'ran were stolen .. and stolen poorly .. from other religions.
- He got scientific and historical facts wrong.
- He used the same names for Allah that the Jews and Christians used for God in order to make the peasants think that it was the same God. He had to associate his new allah-god with the old real God in order to gain some credibility and traction.
- He had to water down who Jesus was in order to get people away from Christianity. The FIRST HAND HISTORICAL DOCUMENTS (New Testament) are very clear that Jesus is God Incarnate. There is no need for Islam if Jesus is God Incarnate. Therefore, Muhammad had to tell lies and water down who Jesus is so that he could bamboozle people into believing his supposed 'visions'.

2 - He gained POWER. You don't have to live in a three story mansion to have power. Even street thugs without a lot of earthly goods have power. Power over the people. Power of fame. Power over life and death. All Muhammad had to do was tell people that allah wanted one of his political opponents dead and .. poof .. the bamboozled peasants went out and killed for him. THAT IS POWER.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
The Jews reject Christianity for the same exact reason... that it cropped up ages after the Torah.

Um .. no. The jews reject christianity because they don't believe Jesus was the messiah. The Christian New Testament books that are from the Torah are taken WORD FOR WORD. They aren't taken in half measures like what the Qu'ran does to the parts of the bible that it plagiarised.

The very purpose of the OP was to compare the attributes of the God of the Koran with the descriptions of God in the Bible. Seems to be a 100% match.

Because Muhammad plagiarised them from the bible in order to try to make his religion sound legit. I could easily tell everyone I had visions from a god called XYZ and use the same titles in order to try to gain validity. It doesn't mean that my so-called visions of XYZ god are legitimate or real.

Originally posted by smithjustinb
Get real. Are you suggesting that the Koran can be easily debunked because it might not match up with the bible? That doesn't debunk anything.

YOU Get real. The FACT is that the bible is a first hand account of the life of Christ. The Qu'ran was written hundreds of years later by a murdering politician who was inventing his own religion. OBVIOUSLY common sense says that the first hand accounts from the time of Jesus are MUCH more reliable than something written hundreds of years later by some dude claiming visions .. (and he had absolutely no proof that his visions were authentic).

In any court of law .. the first hand account from actual witness' would obviously be taken seriously while the second one .. written hundreds of years later .. would be totally dismissed.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

You've already been shown all the scripture quotes that prove Jesus was God Incarnate. You ignore them because, with PRIMARY SOURCES showing that Jesus being God Incarnate, your own religion of Islam becomes irrelevant. It scares you ... so you back away from the truth.

reply to post by FlyersFan

You've already been shown all the scripture quotes that prove Jesus was God Incarnate. You ignore them because, with PRIMARY SOURCES showing that Jesus being God Incarnate, your own religion of Islam becomes irrelevant. It scares you ... so you back away from the truth.

No.
You, like many Christians, come across as a Pharisee who accused Jesus of using demonic powers.

You, just like the Pharisees... are scared of the truth.

reply to post by FlyersFan

You've already been shown all the scripture quotes that prove Jesus was God Incarnate.

I'm still waiting for a scripture quote where Jesus himself said he is God incarnate.

Answer: He did not ever say such a thing. Its all a fabrication.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
You, just like the Pharisees... are scared of the truth.

WHAT A HOOT!

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
I'm still waiting for a scripture quote where Jesus himself said he is God incarnate.

Like I said .. it's all there and has been shown to you many times.
You refuse to believe it because, with Jesus being God Incarnate, Islam becomes irrelevant.

And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. Exodus 3:14

Jesus said unto them, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM". John 8:58

Answer: He did not ever say such a thing. Its all a fabrication.

Question: Where did Muhammad provide proof that what he claimed was true.
Answer: No where. It's all a fabrication.

Jesus is God Incarnate

The Father hath life in himself; so hath [God] given to the Son to have life in himself John 5:26
In [Jesus] was life; and the life was the light of men. John 1:4

[Abraham to God]...Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right? Genesis 18:25
The Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: John 5:22

Then saith Jesus unto him... Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. Matthew 4:10

While [Jesus] spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him... Matthew 9:18

And again, when [God] bringeth in the firstbegotten [Jesus] into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. Hebrews 1:6

And Thomas answered and said unto [Jesus], My Lord and my God. John 20:28

.
Jesus said to worship only God. Angels from heaven and leaders and rulers came and worshipped Jesus, and Jesus did not correct them and tell them to stop. Angels from heaven WORSHIPPED Jesus .. because HE IS GOD INCARNATE

The proof is all there .. it's very clear .. ORIGINAL FIRST GENERATION DOCUMENTATION ... Jesus is God Incarnate. Muhammads claims from hundreds of years later try to take that away. Otherwise, people would have had no use for Islam. Why bother .. if Jesus is God Incarnate. (which original documentation proves that He is)

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by Deetermined

 

You can't have it both ways and Jesus
himself said that he died and then
resurrected.

where? A statement/quote by him?

Matthew 28
Mark 16
Luke 24
John 20
John 21
Acts 1
Act 9
1 Corinthians 15

reply to post by FlyersFan

There is no need for Islam if Jesus is God Incarnate.

i completely agree to that! But as you said "IF"

The FIRST HAND
HISTORICAL DOCUMENTS (New
Testament) are very clear that Jesus is
God Incarnate.

what you mean by that? Do you think the gospel of "X" is actually written by that "X"?

The gospels (and Acts) are
anonymous, in that none of them name an author. Whilst the Gospel of John might be considered
somewhat of an exception, because
the author refers to himself as "the
disciple Jesus loved" and claims to be a member of Jesus's inner circle, most scholars today consider this
passage to be an interpolation.

how many gospel are written by apostles?
Mark is companion of Peter, Luke student of Paul, so only Matthew and here is what i know about his gospel

the majority of
modern scholars it is unlikely that this
Gospel was written by an eyewitness

i see only Gospel of Mark as worthy of consideration.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by FlyersFan

 

You've already been shown all the scripture quotes that prove Jesus was God Incarnate.

I'm still waiting for a scripture quote where Jesus himself said he is God incarnate.

Answer: He did not ever say such a thing. Its all a fabrication.

Read John 14

John 14:6-15

6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

If you keep reading further down in Chapter 14, you'll see Jesus claim to be the "Comforter" (Holy Spirit) as well.

Originally posted by logical7
i see only Gospel of Mark as worthy of consideration.

And yet you buy into the fabrications of someone (muhammad) who showed up 600 years later and whose stories completely contradicted the scripture stories that were actually from the time period of Christ and his followers? Yeah .. okay.

BTW .. you've moved the goal posts .. haven't you? First it was 'show me where Jesus said he was God' (and we did). And now it's ... 'I only buy into Mark'.

Here's a little "Mark" for ya' ...

"Who can forgive sins but God only?" Mark 2:7
Jesus...said..."Son, thy sins be forgiven thee." Mark 2:5

A little from your buddy Moses -

And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. Exodus 3:14

Jesus, saying He came down from heaven, claimed that very title of God ...
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. John 8:58

A little "john" for ya' (yes .. THE John)

I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he. Isaiah 41:4
Jesus said, "Fear not; I am the first and the last:" Revelation 1:17

reply to post by logical7

You didn't give the source of your off site content.

reply to post by FlyersFan

BTW .. you've moved the goal posts .. haven't you? First it was 'show me where Jesus said he was God' (and we did). And now it's ... 'I only buy into Mark'. Here's a little "Mark" for ya' ... "Who can forgive sins but God only?" Mark 2:7 Jesus...said..."Son, thy sins be forgiven thee." Mark 2:5

i havnt moved the goal posts. I am discussing with two people, you (even with you on two points) and deetermined. Right? Mark was for you, as you claim the Highest Validity of the FIRST HAND accounts.
And i asked deetermined a quote/statement from Jesus pbuh.
Also i was actually reading Mark right now, the mark 2:5 and 2:7 are a dialogue and look how you inverted them to prove your point.
And here's the reply from Jesus pbuh

Mark 2:10 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive
sins,

God gave him the power right? And what does "on earth" means? Does it imply "but not in Heaven"?

reply to post by logical7


Humans are the only ones who are forgiven for their sins.

Angels are not. Angels who choose to exercise their free will and then fall, will fall.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
reply to post by logical7

 

You didn't give the source of your off site content.

read on wikipedia.

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by logical7

 

Humans are the only ones who are forgiven for their sins.

Angels are not. Angels who choose to exercise their free will and then fall, will fall.

hmm..
I saw it as power to forgive is given to him on earth. But the power to forgive in heaven is just with God.

reply to post by logical7


That's true too.

As a human, Christ said he was only capable of doing that which God gave him the power to do while he was here on earth.

However, Christ told his disciples that they could acquire the same power by asking for it in HIS (Jesus') name, plus Jesus said he had the power to lay down his own life and then take it up again.

So, hmmmm, indeed!

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by logical7

 

That's true too.

As a human, Christ said he was only capable of doing that which God gave him the power to do while he was here on earth.

However, Christ told his disciples that they could acquire the same power by asking for it in HIS (Jesus') name, plus Jesus said he had the power to lay down his own life and then take it up again.

So, hmmmm, indeed!

you sure slip in a little bit preaching in your posts.
We will disagree on the theological differences in christianity and islam.
Do you believe we have the same One God?