Should the US must keep supporting Israel?

Originally posted by twitchy
No one here so far is arguing that the Israeli nation doesn't has the right to exsist, I think the main purpose of this thread is/was to discuss the current unillateral level of support the US offers Israel in light of the reprocussions we face from terrorism because of this support.

All of this the US has given in support is to allow for the world to know that Israel has a right to exist in their God given land, they are not trying to conquer other countries the way the US is so where are they a threat. If the PA would only finish giving the holy sites back and the rest of their capital city Jeruselem then the US support would not be needed Israel would stay where they are and leave everyone alone. That's all they ever wanted anyway. So why should anyone Terrorist or otherwise oppose the US ideas of giving them there land and letting them build their wall sealing themselves up from the world .....they just want to be left alone in their own land. It's the terrorists and the PA that has something to gain by Israel being made happy because their would be no reason to have to fight Israels borders would be fixed and the issue done with. Whats so bad about that the PA quits getting bombed or raided in Gaza and the PA people live without the threat. Israel is not a conquering people they just want to be left out of the damnations of others follies.

The British Empire didn't support Israel in its move for independence back in '47. The sun never set on the British Empire back then but now the British "empire" is nothing more then a tiny country slowly becoming a mere province delegated to the EU.

America was the first nation to recognize Israel as an independent state. America has always been the strongest supporter of Israel. America has been the biggest arms supplier to Israel. America has given the most economic aid to Israel. America won the Cold War and now is a shining light to the rest of the world. God blessed America for Americas support of Israel.

2 "I will make you into a great nation and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing. 3 I will bless those who bless you,
and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you." Genesis 12: 2-3

Britian cursed Israel and then God cursed Britian.

Verfed - Britain now? You really have it in for any country that didn't support Israel enough, do you?

As for God... well, I'll paraphrase Napoleon and say that politics has no soul, it only has brains.

Originally posted by verfed
The British Empire didn't support Israel in its move for independence back in '47. The sun never set on the British Empire back then but now the British "empire" is nothing more then a tiny country slowly becoming a mere province delegated to the EU.

America was the first nation to recognize Israel as an independent state. America has always been the strongest supporter of Israel. America has been the biggest arms supplier to Israel. America has given the most economic aid to Israel. America won the Cold War and now is a shining light to the rest of the world. God blessed America for Americas support of Israel.

While this is all true, sadly the US unilaterly spends money in Israel and the EU the United States sadly supplies approx. as of 2002, Supplied and still supplies the majority of imports to the EU its goes as follows. I can get the numbers but dont have them right now as to what goes to Israel but I assume its pretty close to the below.

The EU gets from the top three contributors the following

174 billion euro or 20.9% of all trade from the US

107 billion euro or 11.7% of all trade comes from the Ten Newest EU Member Countries

59 billion euro or 6.5% of all trade comes from the Swiss

Originally posted by Otts
Verfed - Britain now? You really have it in for any country that didn't support Israel enough, do you?

As for God... well, I'll paraphrase Napoleon and say that politics has no soul, it only has brains.

And their in lies the reason for the destruction of the Roman Empire over and over again. Even Napoleon's Roman Empire was destroyed.

God gave us that land? Saying God gave you that land is kinda similar to what Cortez told the Aztecs. It's similar to our old ideas of manifest destiny. Really, if you go by what Bush says, it is what we are telling the Iraqis. According to history books, god didn't give you that land, the nations involved did circa 1940's. Really, if you think about it, the pallestinians gave you that land, and the rest of the western world enforced the transaction. As to giving the holy sites back, aren't there Islamic Holy sites in the same area? I'm not trying to be anti-semitic here, I'm failing to understand the issue from a non-religous perspective.
I'm not a religous person, but I have studied a bit and I want to ask you guys a question while I have the 'conch' here,
Why is the western world so hell bent on 'rebuilding the temple'?

Originally posted by twitchy
God gave us that land? Saying God gave you that land is kinda similar to what Cortez told the Aztecs.

I am no where near the beneficiary of God as it pertains to Israel. That land is the Israeli peoples of which I am the furthest thing from. God gave it to them and it does no personal benefit to me to say so, other than the comfort in knowing God's word and believing it to be true, and not testing God for it's truth or lack there of.

It's similar to our old ideas of manifest destiny. Really, if you go by what Bush says, it is what we are telling the Iraqis. According to history books, god didn't give you that land, the nations involved did circa 1940's. Really, if you think about it, the pallestinians gave you that land, and the rest of the western world enforced the transaction.

Man has not the power to give that which is God's, they only have the illusion that they have that right in order to say they are the directors of weaker persons destinies........God not man gave then land to them, when he led Israel out of captivity and as a covenant said it shall be there's always.......the people who quote gave the land back to Israel in the 1940's where living an illusion manafest of evils blindings. They were just occupires in that land they never owned it Only God and Israel can.

As to giving the holy sites back, aren't there Islamic Holy sites in the same area? I'm not trying to be anti-semitic here, I'm failing to understand the issue from a non-religous perspective.

Yes there are Islamic sites there now they were built post 70 CE after the land had changed occupying forces twice or I think three times, but they where not there till after God's Temples where destroyed hince the reason the foundations do not match the slabs they are built on as they are not the exact size and in the exact location the original temples of God where.

I'm not a religous person, but I have studied a bit and I want to ask you guys a question while I have the 'conch' here,
Why is the western world so hell bent on 'rebuilding the temple'?

The western world???? If you mean the US no we aren't the cause or modivation. If you mean Israel they do it because it is Preordained by God that his temples shall stand once again and the temples of and I quote God's word here not my own

"and the temples of the vail shall be torn" and also "verily I say unto you no stone shall stand apon another not be thrown to the ground"

all this leads to the removal of the Islamic temples that were built in 687 thru 691 CE after the 70 CE destruction of the temple of God to allow the land to be reconcecrated to God and his temple to be rebuilt.

They are just following God's devine province in following thru with the removal of the temples of Islam to rebuild the original that was ordained by God to be built



[edit on 31/10/2004 by drbryankkruta]

One thing you guys are not talking about is the fact that Palestine was created by the Roman's after they declared genocide on the Jews over 2000 years ago. It was a made up name so people would forget the name Israel. The Jews have always had the right to that land, they would have always been there if not for the Romans. Another thing you guys are missing is the big picture.....why does the US have such a valued interest in Israel? To answer this question a person must look at how a Muslim controlled countries treat their citizens and how that affects the whole world. Muslim countrys have no middle-class, they are 2% powerful and wealthy and 98% poor and controlled. The people are so controlled that they will do anything (suicide bombings) to feed their family. So let us look at worse case scenario, Israel falls and millions of Jews are murdered. The US would then put sanctions (Oil for Food??) on Jordon, Syria and maybe Egypt. The governments of these terrorist nations would then redirect any money for food and medical...the essentials for its people to survive to WEAPONS. But at the same time tell its people the evil USA is causing you to starve and you must rise up and kill all Americans. Do you guys see where this is going???? The leaders of these countries care nothing for their people, they use them as pond's for propaganda, suicide bombings, in the end to have greater power and control over the world. It is extremely important that Israel remains safe and Iraq is turned in to a peaceful country.

[edit on 31-10-2004 by jackywagg]

[edit on 31-10-2004 by jackywagg]

[edit on 31-10-2004 by jackywagg]

I was following you right up until this...

Originally posted by jackywagg
The leaders of these countries care nothing for their people, they use them as pond's for propaganda, suicide bombings and in the end to have greater power and control over the world.

Racism, Ignorance, Generalization, and paranoia all in one sentence. Wow.

edit:
Oh yeah and hypocrisy.

[edit on 31-10-2004 by twitchy]

Originally posted by verfed

America won the Cold War and now is a shining light to the rest of the world.

haha, say what?

I like to call it common sense...to think Arafat ever actually care about the Palestine people is ignorant. If Jordan or Syria actually care for the refugees in the West Bank or Golan why do they not help with aid? Maybe b/c they know if there is not a humane rights issue there, there is not chaos. Muslim countries to not run very well without it.

Both sides are decending into the usual claptrap and propaganda of thier debates again.

Bottom line. In both thier hearts this region is homeland, for Palestinian and Israeli. Forget the stuff and nonsense about the basis in fact and myth. It past. Deal with the present.

You are not going to get 5-6 million Israelis to trust foreigners to safeguard thier security or make more compromises while Hammas sneaks suicide bombers onto Israeli buses.

Unless you can talk Hammas and others into backing off (if its leadership really cares about Palestinians) then Israel is not going to make more compromises. At least stop the s**t that is going on until the settlements evacuation is played out. Then go from there. If all they are interested in is the power, then they will continue the terrorist campaign to renew the cycle of violence.

Yes the US and the west should support Israel because you DONT want to back them into a corner as they see it, them against the world. The Palestinians least of all would like the results. Thats Palestines only hope ironically.

The Palestines kill babies, woman or men.....well to sum it up they want to kill Jews. That makes them terrorist. All the Israelies want to do is kill terrorist. There is a huge difference between the two. There is hope for the region though.....hopefully Arafat will die a slow painful death soon.

The israelis have relocated millions of palestinians and are forcing them now to live in poverty, regularly brutalizing refugee camps, and systematically destroying schools and infrastructure. The US support for Israel will only lead to more terror against america. Only a fool can believe the US can win the war against a growing billion of muslims in an asymmetric fight.

Yeah we also drink their blod.
You are so being brain washed by groups/media that shows the bad Israelis with tanks and planes againt poor palestinians with stones and and self explosives.

The fact is that those poor palestinians first attacking Israel and hoping to kill all jews, and then crying for their terrorists that are daying.
The differnce betwin IDF and palestinian TERROR organizations, that are teh same as El Quaida, is that those palestinian "freedom" fighters deliberatley kill children in buses, and blow up parties and resturants, in order to kill all jews and destroy israel, while IDF is trageting those terrorists and catching/killing them. Thats the doffernce.

But sure you are not going to believe this after all the stories from CNN, BBC, etc, and other media sources.

After all your way of thinking is that its natural when a free western democratic state (Israel) is killing deliberatley children and innocent "freedom" fighters, while the religion's fanatic, evil, not civilisationed poeple (arabs) are murdering by the name of "freedom" and god, children, old poeple, teenagers, and women in buses, schools, resturants, discoteks....And if thats not enough you go and say that Israel doesnt want peace and Israel is the one who is always starting the fightings, when the oposite is the justice and truth. Yeah thats a pure ligical structure isnt it?

Get a life!

The last israeli incursions in gaza killed about fifty children, and you are trying to make me believe that the palestinians are the source of terror ? You are only trying to defend israel's brutally racist policies towards arabs. But that is impossible. Don't think that it will take long before the international community, which until now has always closed an eye on the genocidal israeli policies, will react and force israel to come back to the negociation table. You will then get out your secret weapon "Look, the UN is being antisemitic again!!!" and whine and cry but nobody will help you. They are all fed up and astounded that a people which was victim of a genocide perpetrates a genocide itself. But that's the irony of history i guess.

[edit on 31-10-2004 by Mokuhadzushi]

Yes why not 500? No one has killed or did what you have said.
Media junk.

Yes I am expecting that poeple from western civilisationed countries will believe the western civilisationed Israel for being teh right, rather believe for fanatic, brutal, evil, religious, non democratic and non civilisationed nations. Which obvously you dont do and prefer continue believe about teh bad Israel and good palestinians or bad palestinians and extremly bad Israel.

the only irony here is the blindess of europe and other nations about the truth, saying israel is doing genesides and arabs are good people that want peace is total not realistic.
You live on another planet thinking israel is a state of wars and arabs are a states of peace. The oposite is the truth which you cannot see.

western civilized israel ? LOL! A country which elects a mass murderer and war criminal Mega Sharon as prime minister is not western and civilized but mentally ill with garbage prophecies and ridiculous messianic belief. Your only ally in the world are the american christian right who believes your garbage about being the chosen people. But when the cost will be too high, even they will abandon you, they won't wait eternally for the messiah.

Did it incur to you that Israel is the last country on the world, together with ZIMBABWE to practice apartheid policies ?

Originally posted by rami_Arna
common, give me a break. Didnt you get it that violence doesnt work agaisnt palestinains . The problem is Palestinians believe that it is their right to fight because you are killing them. They are not doing it becuase they like it. If u go back 5 or six years ago there was no INTIFADA and both israelie and pal were living peacfully until ur sharon dicided to go visit the Holy mosque and that started the whole chain reaction. Dont get me wrong i am not like those arabs who just want israel to vanish, i just hink that israel is over using violence which by default creates more violence. I want both pals and Israelie to leave peacfully. which wont work if israelies keep using their apaches and merkavas against rocks

"Violence doesn't work against palestinians"? Huh?
Military actions is the only thing which helped so far. Peace negotiations only increased terrorism, and same goes for every time Israel was trying to be nice.

There were no intifada 5 years ago, however no one lived in peace. The HAMAS's goal is to destroy Israel no matter what it does, and this was their goal even 18 years ago. Sharon, with all the respect, did nothing which would cause normal people to murder and kill hunderds of jews, screaming "Allah is great". The brainwashing in the Palestinian society started even in the 20s, when jews were murdered without even having an army or any defence organization.

Israel did nothing as long as there was no terrorism, and always preffered the peacefull option. This is a fact.

But the palestinians live in a muslim society which denies anything western or modern, and prefers to spread lies and gain their goals through murder - as it was when Islam was first formed.

In fact it was their will to murder which created Israel in the first place. If not that, they could have had more than 50 percent of the land by now, but their goal always was (and allways will be) to destroy all non-arabs here, partly because this of primitive islamic laws.