Tell me what you know about Islam

Okay, kissing your wife goodbye and hello....my husband does that, too.
He does allow me to speak to whomever I like, and do whatever I want -- and I would never betray his trust by being unfaithful.

You said "women are shown the highest respect", but also then you describe the "rules" for them, which to me means they are "subjugated", covered up, kept indoors and away from other men, not allowed to explore the world or to interact with anyone else .... that doesn't seem very "respectful" at all. It seems more like servitude and slavery and oppression.

reply to post by wildtimes

They are not to proselytize or try to convert others -- If a person embraces Islam, they cannot "unembrace it" without penalty.

they have a duty to give the message to people but not force ofcourse.
The penalty is for people who unembrance and then also create disorder and spread misinformation to mislead simpler folks, that is dealt strongly.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by logical7

 

not unecessary talk, and who does that anyway.

I do it, all the time! I'm doing it now with you, right?

I can't tell you how many times I've chatted with people while standing in lines, or shopping, or waiting for my car to be serviced.....also in school, chatting with my neighbors, just conversations....interesting, harmless, and enables people to see who each other are. How do you know other people if you're not allowed to talk to them, neither to speak nor to listen? That seems excessively "sheltered" and would necessarily lead to ignorance of the world in general.

Only getting to speak to women? Oh boy.....no way. I'd be miserable. Men are much easier to get along with. Really.

edit on 18-1-2013 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)

well i have heard that men are easier to talk from others too. By unnecessary i meant its upto the woman, and that is done after making an estimate of the person to be talked to. But ya in typical cultural environments that is not as free as you are.

reply to post by wildtimes

Death is the sentence for any sort of sexual impropriety.

NO, only for adultery and that too when proved by 4 EYEwitnesses who watched the act! Not that easy.
The punishment for pre-marital, one night stand etc is 80 lashes in public, that are more humilating than skin ripping, the beater cant raise the elbow above shoulder while hitting, also woman is not beaten, maybe imprisoned.
Marriage is made very easy and encouraged, the opposite behaviour strongly discouraged and family as a unit of society is protected.

reply to post by wildtimes


i have to go now, will be back to answer the other posts.

reply to post by logical7

The punishment for pre-marital, one night stand etc is 80 lashes in public, that are more humilating than skin ripping, the beater cant raise the elbow above shoulder while hitting, also woman is not beaten, maybe imprisoned.
Marriage is made very easy and encouraged, the opposite behaviour strongly discouraged and family as a unit of society is protected.

(This is for when you get back.....) (But thanks so far for your answers! )

Now....the above description of punishment for being a SEXUAL HUMAN BEING seems atrociously barbaric. Sex is a natural thing; hormones rage within our bodies that drive us to "mate";

I'm really confused about how "skin ripping" is okay....not at all accepting of our nature as human beings -

and imprisonment for the women? Sounds like every aspect of their lives is like "prison" - house arrest, no freedom of speech or association, no freedom to have skin exposed to the sun and wind, to recognize the body as our personal self and to not be ashamed of it... to have a pretty sparkly thing around our wrist or fingers or hanging from our ears or adorning our hair - to wear trousers, go bathing/swimming in public -- it just seems very oppressive, no matter how you "justify" it or rationalize it. They are PEOPLE, complex, important, precious, intelligent.....not show-horses or prizes. Why repress their very selves to that degree? Why force them to feel "ashamed" or "owned"?

So far, your explanations of how women are regarded seem to send very mixed signals.

"so they are not made into objects to sell soap for cars" - but, keeping them hidden and uneducated and segregated from other men or cultures is treating them like objects! Covering up their god-given beauty seems really oppressive. How is that "the highest respect" for another human being? To dress them, shush them, shut them away, forbid them to learn or interact with other cultures -- beat them (which you stated earlier does happen - and I've heard that before from other sources).....

This treatment is ANYTHING BUT freedom and respect. I just don't understand how it can be called "respect", by anyone at all.

Just another thought as I ponder these things:
The headscarf is a "NOT AVAILABLE FOR YOUR FUN" signal to ward off attention, correct?

My wedding band serves the same purpose - and it's so PRETTY in the sunshine!! It's a symbol of my husband's fidelity and love for me; and my wearing it indicates "taken". It's a "gift" from him, a token of his respect and esteem - not a "brand" or signal that I am subjugated to him.

Originally posted by logical7

I believe Mohammad was a man who traveled. In his travels he met people who talked to him about Christ. I believe that he agreed that we should all come together and be one people linked by one common faith. I believe that much of what is said in the Koran comes from Mohammad's attempt to reconcile both the Old and New Testament.

The message he would have received from Jews and the various factions of Christianity would be quite confusing by this time. The RCC had successfully martyred anyone who was against their way by this time. Without the privilege of being able to read, everything that came to him was handed down by Oral tradition.

Mohammad could see through the RCC and knew that there was a bigger message in the stories he was being told. So rather than follow the RCC he came back to bring all men together under one truth.

Personally I regard Mohammad, in much the same way as I do Buddha or Gandhi. Men who wanted a better truth and sought after it. These are men who's words have been handed down to us.

The Koran, I believe was a group of several well meaning individuals that tried to capture the essence of what Mohammad taught. There are just several things that I simply cannot agree with.

www.thereligionofpeace.com...

Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not." Not only does this verse establish that violence can be virtuous, but it also contradicts the myth that fighting is intended only in self-defense, since the audience was obviously not under attack at the time. From the Hadith, we know that this verse was narrated at a time that Muhammad was actually trying to motivate his people into

Jesus said turn the other cheek.

Only one of these agrees with love. There is nothing worth learning that can be learned in violence. The OT serves as a testimony to man that this does not work. Jesus came to show that violence could never lead to submission, but rather only to separation and destruction.

You say that in Islam you are instructed only to share the word not to convert anyone.

This is exactly what the bible says. You see there are several concepts in the Koran, others in Buddhism, and even still some in other religions that reflect the true nature of love. What the RCC did is form a religion out of the non religion taught by Christ. Understand that the RCC was most likely misunderstanding the point.

They were just men like me and you that could see that religion separates. They fully intended that the whole world would follow the RCC, thus ending the division. The problem is they could not see that forcing your religion on someone with violence never worked, not even for Mohammad.

The only way to force your beliefs on anyone is to love them. It is up to them weather they accept that love. - This is a part of what Mohammad was teaching. This is a part of what Buddha was teaching. This is what Christ was teaching.

Love is from God, it is bigger than religion. If a man earnestly seeks love, he will find it. Everything he sees will point to it. It is possible for man to find God through faith alone, just like our father Abraham. As long as we live in love it matters not where we say the love came from, because there is only one source for love.

If you have found our loving father by studying Mohammad than he was your path to God. Who am I to argue that? This is not a spiritual conversation about religion to me; it is a logical conversation about love.

reply to post by wildtimes


Although I do believe that men and women were born with natural laws, and that religion often teaches us rules for those religions, these must be done in love only if they are to serve any purpose. If they are done merely to obey the law then there is no value. If one covers themselves in a loving display to God there is much value.

I will give you this to ponder.

Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

Genesis 2:23-24
And Adam said:
“This is now bone of my bones
And flesh of my flesh;
She shall be called Woman,
Because she was taken out of Man.”

24 Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.

Mathew 19:4-6
4 “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’ and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’? 6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”

Mathew 22:30
At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.

There can be only one truth. God is both male and female. Adam was made in God's image both male and female. Out of Adam God made woman. Thus making what was once 1 into 2. When you come together in marriage you come back together as one. This is why we should love our spouses as we love ourselves. We are bound together. Every emotion is shared every up and every down.

We can blame each other all we want or we can truly come back together as one.

Anything else is religion and if it is done in love than it is an acceptable sacrifice.

reply to post by sacgamer25

We can blame each other all we want or we can truly come back together as one.

sac,
first of all, I'm glad you've joined this conversation.

The thoughts you presented above I have no quarrel with.

But.....
what are you meaning "we can blame each other" ?

I think those who actually follow my posts and threads realize that I do want us all to come together as one.
Someone the other day spoke negatively about "the lowest common denominator" -- if I understood it correctly, they meant that was a "lame" point to seek. That the lowest common denominator being the truth for everyone was nonsense and "fringe" thinking....

I'm unable to wrap my head around that being a problem, though. Not sure what he meant, either. It seems to me that the "lowest common denominator" is where we should start:

We are all flesh and bone, we all smile, laugh, weep, frown, live under the same sun and moon, and we all need food, water, sleep, shelter, clothing, and HELP with things from time to time. Depending on circumstances and dispositions, we are all sexual creatures - and it takes both male and female to propagate (as with almost all species); and in my mind that means male and female need to arrive at a peaceable consensus. If two people consent to the sex act, that is a natural and normal thing.

Rape, subjugation, imposed silence and unnecessary "covering" of one's "bodily self", taking orders, being suppressed from knowledge, kept away form open engagement in society - these things are not "normal" or "natural".

Thanks for the post, though. I think you know where I'm coming from ... or, at least you said so a few months ago..

reply to post by logical7


OK.

Mohammad was born in Mecca 570 CE. He was orphaned at an early age and raised by his uncle. Mohammad grew up poor and knew the value of compassion and humility from an early age. He had a mostly unsuccessful career as a merchant and would be easily relatable to most men of his day. Mohammad’s habit of disappearing into caves for days at a time to meditate led to his incredible tale of being given the word of god by the angel Gabriel in 610 CE. After being given this message, which was to become the Islam holy book called the Quran, he was told to spread the message among the people. There were several features of Islam which led to its rapid expansion, even after the death of the religion’s first and only prophet.

Mohammad just happened to be a brilliant tactician and military leader, despite the fact he had no formal training. While it isn't accurate to say that Islam spread at the point of a sword, Mohammad was definitely not a prophet of peace. He personally led 20 battles resulting in 20 victories. His military experiences would make the religion much easier to spread amongst soldiers.

One reason Islam was able to spread so quickly was its simplicity. At its core are five straightforward pillars, which every Muslim must follow. First, the only thing required to convert to Islam is to acknowledge that there is only one god, Allah, and Mohammad is his prophet. Second, one must pray five times daily while facing Mecca. Muslims are also required to give charity to the poor. Fourth is a fast during the holy month of Ramadan. Finally, the only pillar which is optional, everyone who is financially and physically able must make at least one pilgrimage to the holy city of Mecca.

Islam was outwardly very similar to the other main religions of the day, Christianity and Judaism. This made it easy for people to convert to Islam, since they were already familiar with the Muslim concepts of one god, a Day of Judgment, and forgiveness of sins. Also, by converting, new Muslims would be exempted from the jizya, or a non-believer tax.

Islam professes a unity of the faithful called the umma. The umma is a family to which every Muslim belongs. A Muslim in need can always count on the umma for support in rough times.

Islam is a religion of the book. The Quran is every Muslim’s guide to the religion. While Mohammad was not divine, the Quran is since it is the direct word of Allah. Muslims have no sense of humor about this issue.

Islam is a universal faith and makes no discrimination against who can and cannot convert. It is a religion open to all regardless of nationality or gender.

When Mohammad created the first Muslim community, called an umma, in Medina, he set up an ethical code which emphasized equality, truth, honor, and justice.

A major part of the religion is a pilgrimage to Mecca called the hajj. It is closely associated with Mohammad; however its actual roots back two millennia before Mohammad’s birth to Abraham. The hajj is the largest pilgrimage in the world thus it is a powerful tool in conversion. While making the journey, pilgrims are apt to spread the faith along their route. While performing the rituals, everyone is in a state of ihram, which means patience and compassion. No anger is allowed while on the journey. Ihram also refers to the simple robes worn by pilgrims. This helps to bring everyone, rich and poor, to the same outward level. The hajj allows every Muslim to connect with Mohammad on a personal level, while the rituals performed give real world substance to the faith.

In Islam there is no separation of church and state. Sharia law is law which comes directly from the Quran. Its appeal lies in how it protects the family, including women and children. Sharia borrows heavily from Hammurabi’s Law Code and relies on the principle of fitting the punishment to the crime. This leads to very orderly societies, since, for example, a thief if caught would have his hand chopped off. The status of women is slightly elevated under Sharia law, as opposed to women living in a completely anarchistic society. They are given mild protection in cases of divorce and adultery, but are still placed directly under the authority of men. Sharia specifically outlaws female infanticide, which had been a common practice before since women were seen as a burden on the family by many cultures. Men were allowed to take up to four wives, but only if they could financially and physically support each one without neglecting the others. Unfortunately the Quran is very specific on the proper method for a man to beat his wife, and the protection given women in cases of adultery is laughable at best....cont ---->

Sufi mystics played an important role in the early spread of Islam. They were very similar to sundiyasi mystics in India and their ascetic lifestyle was appreciated by Hindu converts to Islam. Because the Sufis disregard the technicalities of the religion and focus on the metaphysical aspects of the faith, they were often persecuted by mainstream Muslims. This led to a large exodus of Sufis into India and Pakistan, where millions of lower class sudras and untouchables were drawn to the Sufi’s idea of a minimalist approach to the faith. The idea of a personal relationship with Allah led to millions of converts who were dissatisfied with the ruling priestly class in the India subcontinent.

Islam is known for its close association to the merchant profession because its founder Mohammad was a merchant himself, although a mostly unsuccessful one. He taught that being a merchant was a noble profession and refers to them as couriers of the horizon. This association with merchants was especially useful in spreading Islam to Africa. When Mansa Musa, the powerful 14th century king of the Mali empire, noticed that most of the merchants passing through his region were Muslim, he sponsored Islam as the new state religion. Because of the high amount of trade passing through his empire, this caused a massive increase in conversions to Islam throughout Africa. When people converted they were given access to all the riches Islam had to offer, such as literacy in Arabic, access to libraries and universities, and vast medical knowledge.

One important aspect of Islam which was almost made the 6th pillar is the jihad. To struggle in defense of the faith is one of its highest callings. Everyone is expected to defend the faith. If killed in jihad you are put on fast track to paradise. Paradise was especially appealing to desert dwellers as it was supposed to be lush green garden with cool flowing water.

At the time of Islam’s founding there was a political vacuum in the Middle East. The Persian and Byzantine empires were both in decline and Islam had no other serious competition.

All of these contributed to Islam’s quick and successful growth from the musings of a poor merchant in Mecca into a faith practiced by over a billion people worldwide.

Lets see...some random things I remember...

There are five "pillars" in Islam...(sort of like religious tenets)

Mohommad basically "bargained" with God over how many times his followers would pray durring his "night journey" to Jerusalem. He recieved some bargaining advice from Noah.

The king of what is now Ethiopia harbored Mohammad and his followers after they were driven out of Mecca by the local pagan merchants. (polytheism was big business, and he was cutting into it)

Those are really the only interesting ones that I remember. I'm sure everyone already talked about the kabba with the black rock inside and jihad and all that other stuff.

reply to post by wildtimes


There are really two levels to this. Most people can't even become one with their spouse. Look at it, Adam and Eve failed each other. They were made one and separated to be two. If they would truly have been one, they would not have failed. But they were not.

Man's love - I bought my wife roses so I expect to receive something from her. She gave me nothing new. So I bought her roses again. Again she did not change. I give up, I have shown her love and she refuses to see it or react to it.

God's love - I gave my wife roses and I expected nothing from her. She gave me nothing so I gave her more Roses. Still I received nothing so I gave her tulips instead. You see God's love never gives up he just presents it to you in different ways. He keeps doing this until you hear him, when you hear him then you will give yourself to him.

It is easy to listen to the man who brought love, as much as you needed, as often as you need it, until you submit to him. How can you submit to someone that does not bring you to the truth? Love is truth, if your husband is truly serving you, he will bring love in any way or any quantity you desire. Once your husband has brought you this love, than you will know you can trust him.

Each of us has the same choice they did. Come together as one so we can overcome or sit around and watch, and take part in what is destroying us.

We complain about TPTB but we keep working for paper and then giving the paper back for other stuff we don't need. As long as we are buying what they are selling. We are fueling their greed just like Adam failed Eve, we fail each other.

Honestly I think men are the ones lacking the most. We are called to be servants to mankind but we don't even serve our family. Jesus was a true servant. He placed everyone on a thrown and lowered himself to washing their feet. If you can't even build your wife a thrown how are you going to wash the feet of the man you don't know?

Women you are called to love your husband and listen to him in the manor women know how to listen. If you can't listen to your husband that you live with, how will you ever hear what anyone else has to say?

So if the husband would serve the wife and the wife would listen to the husband then they would truly come together to understand love. They would create an unbreakable bond.

We are all part of the same body. If we rise to life we will do it together. If we fail we have all failed and thus we will live in the hell that we have created. If the hand says it is not part of the body that does not make it any less a part of the body. We are one and we only win if we come together.

You know by now I don't answer much directly but I'll give you this.

Instead of looking to ourselves for a savior we look outside our self. When we don't find it we blame everyone but ourselves. Our Kids, Our Job, Our Wife, TPTB, everyone but ourselves. Change you and expect the world to change. If you cannot see that we are at a point in our existence where we are left with only two choices than you are not paying attention.

Maybe the ideas belong to someone else but we are all the fuel that keeps the fire of hell burning. We need to back away from the fire Greed, Idolatry, Coveting, Addiction, Anger, Hatred, Fear, Religion, or anything that separates us is the fuel for this fire. You can be fuel or can be like him, the choice is yours.

I must admit that I don't know a lot about Islam. Although I do have an interesting story/anecdote to share...

Recently i had a very long overnight stay at an airport (in Germany). During this time I saw a guy in a robe who looked very Islamic and immediately thought he looked kinda out of place. A few hours later I saw him again, standing in a corner away from everyone preparing to pray. After a minute or two another guy came along who looked Arabic but dressed in western clothing. They spoke for a minute and then started to pray together, as I'd never seen this before i was interested to watch. Once they'd finished they took a photo of themselves together, shook hands and went their separate ways.

It just seemed so cool to me that two strangers would come together in such an artificial place as an airport, pray and then get on with their journeys.

Sorry, but no major insights into Islam apart from the fact that I witnessed something special (from my point of view) between two total strangers that shared a common belief but something that was probably absolutely normal to them.

Religion is a massive Illuminati tool with a stealth agenda that is used to deceive the masses.

Religion is used to cause people to HATE God and blame HIM for all the atrocities and deaths.

This is how the real agenda behind Illuminati religions works:

1) Create a "religion" that commits horrendous atrocities and kills millions.

2) Make it grow by threatening all those who try to leave.

3) Blame all these atrocities on God and His "Religion".

"Every major religion in the world has been manufactured or infiltrated by the Illuminati to enslave and brainwash society. In essence, religion was the first form of mind control."

All false religions are illuminati created

my take is mohammed toked too much hash, read the torah, wrote the koran, then killed all the jews that could show how he did it.

I know that Islam is different from being just Muslim. Islamist is when you bring the radicalism and sharia law into the equation.

reply to post by ZeroReady

Wow!!

Thanks for that contribution, no doubt!!!!

Tell me, are those two posts your "off-the-cuff" explanation? They sound more like professional, peer-reviewed academic submissions. I'm very impressed, and look forward to the responses of others to your eloquent description.

reply to post by wildtimes


I had to write an essay for my history class last semester about Islam. That's what I could remember from it. Mostly all from my history text book.

Amazing what you'll find in those things!