UK.. We Messed Up Letting The Government Take Our Guns..

Originally posted by SpearMint
reply to post by EvillerBob

 

Well most of your post wasn't about homicide. You can't compare city to city, it doesn't mean anything because they're all different, if you want to compare cities then compare the worst from each country, but even then it isn't a fair comparison. As for the strict gun laws in Chicago, I'm not sure what your point is, but gun laws don't work if you're surrounded by guns.

I don't want to compare "city by city" for that very reason. The post was about (i) gun free Britain not being exactly gun free (citing Liverpool as a notable example) and (ii) something else that I forget now and I can't be bothered to open another tab but it would have been very important I'm sure.

The Chicago reference is to point out that the city with the worst murder rate in the US also has the most gun control, which suggests that there are factors at play beyond legitimate possession. Or, if you prefer, "the bad guys don't care about the law and if they want a gun they'll get one and use it anyway" - a la Liverpool, in fact.

reply to post by blupblup

Exactly... NOBODY ever discusses guns and people owning guns in the UK. Just isn't something people concern themselves with at all.

equals WIN for TPTB!

Originally posted by EvillerBob

Originally posted by SpearMint
reply to post by EvillerBob

 

Well most of your post wasn't about homicide. You can't compare city to city, it doesn't mean anything because they're all different, if you want to compare cities then compare the worst from each country, but even then it isn't a fair comparison. As for the strict gun laws in Chicago, I'm not sure what your point is, but gun laws don't work if you're surrounded by guns.

I don't want to compare "city by city" for that very reason. The post was about (i) gun free Britain not being exactly gun free (citing Liverpool as a notable example) and (ii) something else that I forget now and I can't be bothered to open another tab but it would have been very important I'm sure.

The Chicago reference is to point out that the city with the worst murder rate in the US also has the most gun control, which suggests that there are factors at play beyond legitimate possession. Or, if you prefer, "the bad guys don't care about the law and if they want a gun they'll get one and use it anyway" - a la Liverpool, in fact.

Well obviously the UK has some guns, no one said they don't, but they are responsible for very, very few deaths. Chicago has a high murder rate because they are surrounded by and drowned in guns. Of course gun laws won't work there.

As an American I probably have no right to voice my opinion of you folks in the UK but I do believe that anyone who gives up the equality of power is asking for eventual destruction. During WWII you people were allowed guns and you were almost decimated by your enemy. That alone should tell you that it should never happen to your loved ones and that you should do all that you can to avert that from happening.

It's not a simple thing of UK gun crime that is at issue here. It is also invasion of your people that should be foremost in your minds. Gun crime can be eventually controlled by education of the people. Remember one very important thing, if the enemy does invade and you are disarmed you will be sheep at the slaughter house. That is a fact.

We, in America, do have high gun crime in certain areas of our country but it is a very few who are responsible for those crimes. Almost all of our gun crimes are repeat criminals and the mentally sick people who could be controlled if our politicians would do their jobs. It is not a matter of simply taking away one weapon when the world is full of other weapons that will do the same crime. Evil people are evil people and a evil person will always find a way to commit his or her crime.

I hope that invasion will never come to you people and I have a deep care and respect for your beloved country. If at all possible your gun rights should be re instated slowly and with certification. Not stripped and leaving you naked. We need a armed militia who is well trained in home defense and not disarmed sheep ready for slaughter. Don't repeat WWII. It could and will eventually happen again. There are a lot of Hitlers out there and they are much smarter than Adolph was.

reply to post by SpearMint

Chicago has a high murder rate because they are surrounded by and drowned in guns. Of course gun laws won't work there.

So you are saying that gun control does not work?
2nd

Originally posted by ajay59
reply to post by SpearMint

 

Chicago has a high murder rate because they are surrounded by and drowned in guns. Of course gun laws won't work there.

So you are saying that gun control does not work?

2nd

Pay attention to what I'm saying. Chicago is completely surrounded and drowned in guns, I'm referring to the whole of the USA, so of course gun control will not work in just one place. It needs to be the whole country for it to work.

reply to post by EvanB

EvanB, The one thing most don't realize is we are not a "democracy" in the U.S. of America. We are a REPUBLIC. Our Law and the "Supreme law of the land" is the U.S. Constitution. There are somethings our federal Government can and can not do by our law/laws. Yes we have a communist/socialist president (that is trying to be all European on us) along some "reps" of our states in "federal" office who are following Hitlers play book.

They hope by spewing that we are a democracy enough that us U.S. citizens will forget we have unalienable rights and the "majority" gets it's way. They have a second thought coming and it will be very soon if they don't take a pause.... and think of what they "swore to uphold and defend.".... I mean really, these folks sware to "...uphold and defend".... something they turn around and say is an "archaic document"?

Rest ashored your English/British heart, the American revolution against tyranny has never ended it only began at Lexington and Concord...... This will not end pretty. My advise to the Brits is don't listen to the UN and get envolved. We Real Americans got this. After all they trained us for their wars and we can handle them.

TextPay attention to what I'm saying. Chicago is completely surrounded and drowned in guns, I'm referring to the whole of the USA, so of course gun control will not work in just one place. It needs to be the whole country for it to work.

reply to post by SpearMint


@ SpearMint

Don't understand your reasoning.

Chicago (USA) has a population of 2,707,120 with a homicide rate of 15.2 per 100,000 people.

New York City (USA) has a population of 8,244,910 with a homicide rate of 6.4 per 100,000 people.

Both cities have strict NO gun laws and in fact Chicago has the more strict laws on the books.

Not all of these homicides are gun related but I wanted to show you that it is the hearts and minds of people and not the guns that kill. Regardless of how you stack the deck it boils down to one fact. Drugs are the main issue with homicide as well as education. When you alter the minds of people with hate and drugs, you destroy that mind totally. America turned their people into more ignorant savages than when we had slavery and it has now come home to bite us. Don't be foolish and argue facts.

reply to post by SpearMint


I would rather not pay attention to you or any traitor to my Constitution! I do not really care what someone, who in my eyes, is paid to present an opinion. As far as I am concerned, any who do not value our founding principles, does not belong in the country they created!

Originally posted by Hopeforeveryone
reply to post by eriktheawful

 

Ha ok i'll give you that one

If you can find another i'll be really impressed !

Not any more recent than that I'm afraid.

What worked for a small, rural town back in 1946, most likely would not turn out very well in say, New York City, 2013.

The good news is that incident back in 1946 made the Justice Department look very bad. The citizens of that area had a legit complaint and protocols for voting were not being followed, but instead, voter laws were being out right ignored or broken.

Any complaints on a local, county, state or even federal level are taken very, very seriously in today's world.

That doesn't mean voter fraud, broken rules, etc are not happening. I'm sure that if you look hard enough somewhere in our country it's going on at some level.

For us (Americans), it's about our 2nd amendment right of course. Would we riot? Would we cause conflict?

I'm not 100 percent sure, however, I have many, many, MANY friends that really do advocate the saying of:

"You can have my gun when you pry it from my cold, dead hand!

Obviously law makers here are not too worried that a bunch of armed civilians are going to start a revolt. However, they don't want civil unrest either.
Civil unrest costs a lot of money in damages, resources and manpower. Leaders don't want that, because it means they might end up out of a job too.

I think that if enough people here get pissed off enough, that's what we'll have eventually: civil unrest, and it will most likely cause a chain reaction across our nation. President Obama doesn't want that, even if he is a lame duck president, because it would go down in the history books that he had this happen on his watch or was the cause of it, and it would look really bad.

But that doesn't mean that he and other leaders won't make stupid decisions that could trigger that, heh.

As for my cousins over in the UK: I've lived all around the world, but never did get a chance to visit the UK. I have many on line friends there that I chat with all the time.
When I was much, much younger, I always had this impression that British citizens were quite prim and proper. The idea of a Brit running around with guns, acting like some cowboy was just silly! British people are much too proper for silly shinanagins like that!

As I grew up and wiser, I realized that British people are just as wild as us Americans. Or any other culture for that matter.

Whether you feel you need guns or not, is clearly up to you. It's your country after all, and is not my place to say.

Living out here in the country, over 15 miles from the nearest town, with my next door neighbor being far enough I have to drive to visit, I'm glad I'm armed. We have bob cats here. We have pit bulls that are running around loose and acting very aggressive, and yes, we have coyotes here too (however it's against the law to shoot them, nor would I. Poor guys are just looking for food and scared to death of everything, even the leaves falling out of the sky).
First responder time to get to my house? 20 minutes. Minimum.
So yes, I personally have need of being armed.

But that's my situation, and is not the same as someone living in down town London.

So I'll support you if you decide you need arms. But I'll also support you if you keep the status quo too. It's your country, not mine, and I'm not going to sit here and dictate how you should live in your country.

Now I'm off. My Scottish ancestry from 350 years ago is suddenly making me want to wear a kilt and play the bag pipes so I can annoy my neighbors (gun fire certainly doesn't, as I hear them all the time target shooting).

reply to post by eriktheawful


Yeah i'm quite alright with the current restrictions on UK firearms. Don't feel like i need one. I did have a browning .22 semi-auto target pistol when i was a young teenager but alas the police wanted it back. Bit ridiculous i always thought that a motivated teenager could get a firearm in a country where they're banned but hey, that's a whole different story.

The U.S situation is totally different to here in the UK, I agree. As it's a part of your constitution i'd say a large majority vote on the issue would be needed for any acceptable legal change to be made. It seems it's such a part of the culture and there's so many in circulation that the task of rounding them all up would be impossible or take many decades at least, while allowing the criminals to run riot in the mean time.

As for political change via firearms, sounds like a bad idea to me. Gandhi and Mandela managed to shrug off their oppressors without the need of a ak47 or even a single shot musket. Political change will only come when enough people can agree on what exact changes they desire and then gathering enough popular support to force change either through mass strikes or electing politicians who actually do what they say. Hopefull prospect i know.

reply to post by Hopeforeveryone


You are very wrong there,no matter what government you vote in you will get the same crap,they work for certain 'interests' and it certainly is'nt yours

reply to post by jeleigh752


Thing is the majority of people don't give a monkey's butt about politics or society in general. Too busy looking after their own or wrapped up in vices, the internet, tv, booze, etc etc. The mechanism for change is part of the system but nobody wants to use it.

reply to post by Hopeforeveryone


"...A large majority vote..."? I would like to remind you we are not a "democracy" in the U.S. We are a Republic. The "majority" does not have a say in/on my rights. Our "democratically elected leaders" swear to "uphold and defend"..... a Republic ruled by the Bill of Right and the U.S. Constitution.

I live in the UK, Northern England to be exact and own a fire arms license and I just bought this beauty recently:




ISSC Mk22 Black Model – .22lr Semi-Auto Rifle – Featuring 22 Shot Magazine with Fixed Stock and adjustable Cheek Piece. – Supplied with 1/2″ UNF Thread Adaptor

I think some Brits need to learn their laws and rights.

We're just subjected to more thorough testing.

For a fire arms license. You either need to have permission to shoot on private land, or be part of a gun club. Medical checks for any past history of mental health, and also background checks for any criminal records. Also two referees are needed which can't be family related. E.G a boss

As well as that, you must have a secure place to keep them, in a gun locker. Other than that, we can own a wide range of guns, except hand guns..

Also it's funny that most people want semi-automatic rifles banned in the US when we can have them here in the UK.

I'd just like to note. Only rim fire semi auto rifles are allowed and must be a certain calibre. Center fire semi auto rifles aren't allowed.

reply to post by murphy22


So if the senate passed an amendment to the constitution banning firearms you'd be ok with that ? Wouldn't you prefer the will of the majority to be represented in your political system? I suspect the majority wouldn't favour a firearm ban.

reply to post by Hopeforeveryone


I'm not sure how you got that out of what I said..... But you are not even "on paper" READJUST, GET A GOOD PRONE SUPPORTED POSITION AND TRY AGAIN..... REMEMBER TO SQUEEZE.......

reply to post by murphy22


Maybe if you learnt to express yourself then i could understand what you're trying to say.

Just because tony blair betrayed the labour party and his followers once does not mean they are not a better choice than liberals or conservatives(you call them tories there?). The uk does as america pleases, and america and the uk do as israel pleases. It is what it is, unless people demand change, and not enough are demanding it to make it real.

As for guns, I think shotguns combine everything in one package; hunting, target shooting, self defense. Too bad people in the UK have a hard time legally defending themselves and afford more rights to the criminals than to the victims. It is hard to fathom this mentality!

As for semi-automatic shotguns, can you switch from a smoth bore to a rifled bore? I know some manufacturers push this option but is it legal there? Also can you store five shells in the magazine or is there a plug to keep it to 3?

Gun regulation is not a black and white topic. Opinions vary and there are pros and cons to either side...

Originally posted by EvanB
Over the last few weeks I have taken great interest in the US debate on gun control..

And like you was exasperated by the seemingly ubiquitous strange love of guns et al in the US.. The culture of being armed to the teeth did not make sense.. It seemed irrational and the advocates for guns seemed alarmingly blinkered in their arguements..

We in the UK like sheep willingly gave up our arms via fear based propaganda and marketing which has allowed successive governments to ride rough shod over us with impunity..

In short.. Our government has no fear of the British public.. We have all been angry at the nonsensical obssession with handing our soveriegnty to the EU.. Our unjust laws that put the criminals rights higher than the victims.. Even unto the point that defending our own homes and families against intruders will put us in jail..

Do you think that Gordon Brown would have got away with what is tantermount stealing our gold if we were armed?. Or the constant BS from the EU?.. Open door immigration? Unjust wars?... Man.. The list goes on and on..

All we have left is demonstrations with plackards.. Which they duly ignore.. If like America our citizenry was armed do you think they would ignore our democratic wishes?

I think not!

But now they are laughing at us.. And get away with anything they want and we are somewhat powerless to stop it...

We was duped into having our sharp teeth removed via knee jerk emotional response to tragedy..

Conned...

You Americans that read this.. Dont make our mistake.. Your founding fathers wrote the second ammendment with prophetic eyes..

Or be prepared for a national dental teeth extraction..

I love you.

I know that's weird, and I apologize. But, it took a LOT of gutz to speak your mind on this, anticipating all the negative feedback you'd get from your fellow countrymen. Don't listen to them.

They live in an unarmed society, so coming to terms with how disadvantaged they'd be during the event of a civil war or something, must be really mind boggling and frightening. Of course they don't want to believe the worst things about their country. Neither do we, here in America.

Still, you are awesome for this. You should come over to the states, so we can go out and shoot.