What will happen if there is a civil war in America?

I'm going to copy and paste one of my arguments from the thread where this got started.


Your same arguments for the government not being able to farm (as if they need to with the amount of foreign aid they will receive from their allies, yes that's right, you will be labelled terrorists and the US allies will help the government) can also be used against you.
Assuming you make it out of a city to be a countryside farming Rambo, you will need round the clock surveillance and weapons to stop Uncle Sam from taking what they want.
Notwithstanding the cameras hundreds of miles straight up that are and can watch you. Think heat signatures.
How are you going to farm without the necessary equipment? Even if you get the equipment how are you going to keep it running? How much gas/diesel do you really have stored? Do you think you can run down to the local gas station? How are you going to handle a drought? Pesticides? Herbicides? Feed for cattle? Feed for poultry? How are you going to communicate with others when the government takes over all bands on the radio and monitors all frequencies? What happens in the winter? Are you just going to settle where you can live all year round in comfort? You think they don't realize humans freeze in the winter? What about medical emergencies? Diabetes? You have a source of insulin? Can you keep it refrigerated? How many people are going to die in your group within 3 months due to lack of available meds? How are you going to deal with difficult pregnancies? If you are lucky enough to have a physician/EMT/nurse in your group, what happens when they need tools for surgery? What happens if they haven't performed the surgery? What happens if they get wounded/killed? Do you give up then?

When your children are starving in the woods, slowly freezing to death because you think you had things all figured out typing away on your keyboard, remember the people that submitted and are spending time with their families. You may have held to your principles, but, if no one is alive in your group to enjoy it, what did you accomplish?

ps- they will never question what they are fighting for as long as their family is safe, if it were possible I would suggest talking to a Jewish Ghetto Policeman.

reply to post by k1k1to


First, let's get one thing straight. I have never asked for any kind of special treatment. Of course I volunteered. And even the dumb kids who join to "play call of duty in real life" find out real fast that the real thing is much different than video games. Most military members do not have this "sense of entitlement" that you seem to think they have. Sadly there are those who do all of the terrible things that you think the military does constantly, and unfortunately, they are the ones portrayed the most because it gets ratings.

You're entitled to your opinion, but you should try and base it on actual facts.

reply to post by dave_welch


Possible U.N. forces on American soil, a larger military assistance than anticipated. The president seeks sanctuary from the U.N. receives it, and becomes their leader. Years of rebuilding, and reorganizing.
And lets not forget possible earth changes that may be involved in said seanerio.

Originally posted by superman2012
I'm going to copy and paste one of my arguments from the thread where this got started.


Your same arguments for the government not being able to farm (as if they need to with the amount of foreign aid they will receive from their allies, yes that's right, you will be labelled terrorists and the US allies will help the government) can also be used against you.
Assuming you make it out of a city to be a countryside farming Rambo, you will need round the clock surveillance and weapons to stop Uncle Sam from taking what they want.
Notwithstanding the cameras hundreds of miles straight up that are and can watch you. Think heat signatures.
How are you going to farm without the necessary equipment? Even if you get the equipment how are you going to keep it running? How much gas/diesel do you really have stored? Do you think you can run down to the local gas station? How are you going to handle a drought? Pesticides? Herbicides? Feed for cattle? Feed for poultry? How are you going to communicate with others when the government takes over all bands on the radio and monitors all frequencies? What happens in the winter? Are you just going to settle where you can live all year round in comfort? You think they don't realize humans freeze in the winter? What about medical emergencies? Diabetes? You have a source of insulin? Can you keep it refrigerated? How many people are going to die in your group within 3 months due to lack of available meds? How are you going to deal with difficult pregnancies? If you are lucky enough to have a physician/EMT/nurse in your group, what happens when they need tools for surgery? What happens if they haven't performed the surgery? What happens if they get wounded/killed? Do you give up then?

When your children are starving in the woods, slowly freezing to death because you think you had things all figured out typing away on your keyboard, remember the people that submitted and are spending time with their families. You may have held to your principles, but, if no one is alive in your group to enjoy it, what did you accomplish?

ps- they will never question what they are fighting for as long as their family is safe, if it were possible I would suggest talking to a Jewish Ghetto Policeman.

Awesome, you're back!

First of all I would like to address the issue of gov surveillance cameras. One of the first things I would do, and I imagine others would do, is disable such devices (at least the ones on the street). The surveillance satellites, however, would be an entirely different problem. Most likely, they will be left to do their thing as there would not be much, if anything, that even a large, organized resistance could do about them, as the control centers would be heavily guarded. If such a resistance movement were to happen, and last for an extended time period, eventually there would be several sabotage attempts on such gov assets. If it's over a long enough time period, enough of the technicians may defect, attempt to desert and be either jailed or executed, or just die from any number of things that would run rampant in such a society. If the numbers were to dwindle enough, lack of scheduled maintenance could cause several crippling effects on such sensitive equiptment.

Second: Farming. The problem of farming would be one of the easiest ones to remedy for the resistance. First of all, I think we've agreed that the resistance would be centered around the rural areas, already there are several advantages of their ruralness that they would take advantage of. A. Grain elevators and silos which are numerous throughout the rural areas will provide emergency feed for all livestock during the winter. Livestock will consume natural resources during the spring, summer, and autumn months, I.E. Grass for the Cattle, horses, mules and donkeys, pecking seeds, insects, and other foods out of the dirt for chickens, ducks, geese, and turkeys will revert back to a wild state and will be hunted for food if necessary. Cattle can not (in cases with dairy cattle) survive without human aid as some breeds are bred to create more milk than their young can eat causing life threatening infections. Pigs will be the easiest to care for as they literally eat anything, be it grain, foraged ground flora, even meat.

Pesticides and herbicides are a problem, but can be combated. Herbicides will be used for a long time as farms are wont to keep large amounts in stock, and local graineries and seed vendors have several large drums on hand, they will be used until gone, then will most likely be replaced by people weeding crops by hand, which will cause problems due to more time and man hours being spent in fields. Pesticides however, cannot be replaced after they are all gone, and that will cause problems, however, people farmed for thousands of years without them, so in the end it won't be much of a problem.

(continued in next post)

Communication will be a major problem. I suspect they would use HAM radio frequencies and eventually use a code, though I don't know how they would get to that point. Possibly via use of the internet, or through runners or ravens or pigeons like in the old days, not sure how reliable those methods are.

As far as keeping warm in the winter, I would say that mainly, people would keep warm via wood heat, even within the gov controlled areas as electric heat may be viewed as wasted energy when other means are available and electric heat could put too much strain on power stations that may be running on a skeleton crew, the same would go for gas heat as the gas is a finite resource and the gov may not want to spare the people to work at the gas plants as they may be needed more for harvesting food in gov controlled areas.

As for location, I think at first people would try and settle the southern states to avoid the cold winters as its easier to die via freezing than die via heat.

Medical needs would be by far the biggest obstacle, as those who have medical training would be stretched very thin and medical supplies would be hard to come by. Unfortunately, those requiring certain medicines, like insulin which needs to be refrigerated, may be out of luck. Luckily, at least with some forms of diabetes, certain dietary restraints can at least keep the disease at bay. Difficult births will be a problem, however, women gave birth for thousands of years before there were even midwifes. The amount of people in the resistance that would be lost in the first year is hard to tell, but it would be a large number, and that brings us to the problem of the dead. Those that die in the warmer months will most likely be buried, but when the ground is frozen in the winter, they will possibly be disposed of in funeral pyres, maybe stored until the ground thawed so that burial would be easier. I know that in the latter part of the 19th century and early 20th century, bodies were sometimes stored for the winter until the ground thawed and burial was much easier. However, I think people would learn to live with the losses as opposed to just giving up, as medical science as we know it is a very recent thing, and our grandparents can still remember a time when it was common for people to die of things like fever, flu, cold, and child birth. Surgical tools and impliments would be scavenged from local clinics and hospitals.

Thinking the worst and that "children will be starving in the woods" as you say, is being defeated before you start. There will definitely be hard times on both sides, and it definitely will not be "sunshine and roses" for those that submitted to tyrannical rule especially when food reserves run low and people begin to starve. Also, when people are basically living in the Hoovervilles of the depression era, moral and health will drop to drastic lows.

Also, I think there will be a few nations that would come to the aid of the resistance for their own nefarious goals, i.e. china, russia, et al. Remember France did the same thing during the American Revolution.

I think I forgot to mention the implementation of biodiesel and Horse/Mule/Ox drawn farm implements.

WOW sounds like a movie, initially I was going to say this would never happen but your post makes me wonder.

It is possible obviously, only if Americans stand united, otherwise it will be terror cells.

Where are the so called militia for instance?

reply to post by dave_welch


I can see your point on everything, and even imagine it ( I love these types of movies).

Your entire thread does not think long term though.

Fine, you are using biodiesel for farming. You don't think satellite surveillance will see the MASSIVE area that you will need for farming for entire towns/cities?
How long will the biodiesel last? If you get more mules, oxen, horses to plow more areas, not only does that make the likelyhood of your being spotted go up, but, you will need even more crops to feed your new machines.

Using wood to heat everyones home? For how long? How big are these towns/cities that are going to be using wood as fuel for heat? Does this mean that you are setting down roots? Again, more heat signatures for the government to find you with.

Also, if you are planning on staying around lakes, or areas that are warm, that will be the one of the first places they will look for you....especially in the winter.

Good idea for a thread btw!

Originally posted by superman2012
reply to post by dave_welch

 

I can see your point on everything, and even imagine it ( I love these types of movies).

Your entire thread does not think long term though.

Fine, you are using biodiesel for farming. You don't think satellite surveillance will see the MASSIVE area that you will need for farming for entire towns/cities?
How long will the biodiesel last? If you get more mules, oxen, horses to plow more areas, not only does that make the likelyhood of your being spotted go up, but, you will need even more crops to feed your new machines.

Using wood to heat everyones home? For how long? How big are these towns/cities that are going to be using wood as fuel for heat? Does this mean that you are setting down roots? Again, more heat signatures for the government to find you with.

Also, if you are planning on staying around lakes, or areas that are warm, that will be the one of the first places they will look for you....especially in the winter.

Good idea for a thread btw!

Thanks, I'm enjoying it as well. I like hypothetical things like this, because it's a lot harder to get upset about. I tend not to comment on some threads as I don't want to let my aggravation to take control of the post as nobody wants to hear the hostile words of a furious man.

The whole part with staying hidden is the whole trick, maybe. I'm no strategist, so I'm going only by what I know about. However, Even if they can monitor us, there are ways to hide in plain site, so to speak. The way I see it, for one, is not in large communities but maybe several small communities over a larger area. Take, for example, my county in Oklahoma, there are several small rural neighborhoods, but they are technically part of no town. The more wooded the area where people are living, the easier to hide, however, in the winter time, the presence of heat sources, and lack of vegitation to hide beneath would be a problem. As for farming. I see people doing the major jobs like Tending and harvesting crops under the cover of night. I also see people staging resistance cells from areas that are a long enough distance from the nearest government territory to make it an inconvenience to utilize large groups of ground troops to seek them out, mainly due to logistical problems beset on an over taxed military force. I believe that would force the government in to stealth or covert scouting missions. I see resistance forces spread over large areas with booby-traps or ied's or mines placed near more heavily used corridors to try and capture or terminate them.

I obviously admit I don't know all the answers, but I'm enjoying the hell out of this thread all the same.

reply to post by dave_welch


Explanation: S&F!

What will happen is ... neither side will be legally/lawfullly allowed to use any hollow point ammunition, as that would be a War Crime!

Personal Disclosure: And I go into deeper detail on that issue here ...

Hollow Point Ammo Political/Legal Issues and Hollow Victories!

Be Partriotic Comrades!

reply to post by dave_welch

What are you going to do then? Just hide until what? When? If you're going to be a part of a small resistance against the US military and all their tech, I don't see this revolution ever winning...just surviving, and remember, surviving isn't living.

Good points though and you do paint a very vivid picture! Write a short story! I will definitely read it! Like I said before, I love these stories! One second after is one of my favorite, with the After America series being a close second.

Executive order can not strip the Second Amendment from the constitution. In any case, there would be no winners if he could. Just several million dead people and the eventual end of government. People tend to think of America as just another country. It is not. It is an ideal that will not die. It is a mindset that will not die.

reply to post by jimmiec


When ordered to hand in their gold by executive order, Americans did, with no uprising. You can't provide for your children with a handgun. I would have thought that being able to support your family would be more important than guns. If I had to guess. I'm glad I didn't because I don't like being wrong.

I don't think it is possible to do absolute gun control, that would not only be a terrible policy decision, but it wouldn't work. Nothing ever does when it is too extremist, anyway. Oh, but I mean your story seems accurate.

Originally posted by superman2012
reply to post by dave_welch

 

What are you going to do then? Just hide until what? When? If you're going to be a part of a small resistance against the US military and all their tech, I don't see this revolution ever winning...just surviving, and remember, surviving isn't living.

Good points though and you do paint a very vivid picture! Write a short story! I will definitely read it! Like I said before, I love these stories! One second after is one of my favorite, with the After America series being a close second.

Myself? I'm not sure, I could say something like "I'd rather die a free man, than live as a slave" and though I mean it now, if it came down to it, who knows? I will say, that I would do what I can to keep out of the Federal Urban Centers, if that was the strategy they employed. I'm a good hunter/tracker, I'm a good shot. However, those that have never killed a person (such as myself) can never really say what they would do in such a situation as taking another life is something not to be taken lightly. I don't even know myself if any resistance would ever win. I think in such a battle there would be no winners, maybe those in power could have a change of heart at that fact? Wishful thinking, most likely, but I'm an optimist I guess, and I like to imagine that nobody is all bad, all though evidence points otherwise.

I may write a short story, if I do, I'll post it on here, since this has gotten me to put a fairly decent one together in my head. Have you ever read Alas, Babylon? Great fall of civilization novel from the late 50's, read it in high school.

Originally posted by superman2012
reply to post by jimmiec

 

When ordered to hand in their gold by executive order, Americans did, with no uprising. You can't provide for your children with a handgun. I would have thought that being able to support your family would be more important than guns. If I had to guess. I'm glad I didn't because I don't like being wrong.

You may not be entirely wrong. You can provide for your family with a handgun, though only for small game, and a rifle is more effective in shooting game. Handguns aren't for providing food, they're for self defense. They're easily carried, easily concealed, and much more convenient in day-to-day life when shopping, running errands, whatever. I, personally, don't carry a gun, but that's only because in my area I don't really need too. I live in a small town, with very little violent crime, the only shootouts that have ever happened here have been between a criminal, and the police. A little unrelated, but I just thought of this, and never think of typing it out when it applies. I've seen a lot of people against concealed carry and open carry because they think that every fender-bender, or parking lot disagreement will turn into a shootout, here, at least, that just doesn't happen, we have concealed carry and open carry. Lots of people exercise those rights and there are never any occurances of legal gun carriers using their guns illegally. In fact, I would go as far as to say that our gun laws are the reason public crime is so low.

reply to post by dave_welch


Instead of getting all crazy about how about we actually get some honest people to run for office.
And make it that their main focus of gaining office is to actually pass campaign reform and term limits for the crooks in office.

Maybe that way we'll actually get some honest people into office and not a bunch of crooks.

reply to post by superman2012


Guns support families. Where i live the freezers are filled every year with deer meat. Guns are tools for most Americans. Big cities? Not so much. We learn gun safety/hunting/safety at a very early age here and we don't have gun crime.

reply to post by grey580


Well, that's the main goal, isn't it? However it's a difficult to obtain goal, as we can pretty much declare most if not all Democrats and Republicans are crooked. Every once in a while there will be somebody like Ron Paul who at least seems logical and honest, but they never get elected due to either running third party, or being ignored by their political party and the media.