God murdered children. Where's the outrage?

reply to post by lobotomizemecapin

I have never heard of such story about Pharaoh. that was Pharaoh who killed children not God.
God is the most merciful the wisest. the altered mistranslated Bible and corrupted clerics have nothing to do with God. God is creator and independent of everything. God is who we invoke him and we like him to be. the perfectness.

Originally posted by lobotomizemecapin

“
So here we see that god up and killed thousands of young kids who had nothing to do with anything going on around them.

Why do you praise a child murderer?

Why does god get a free pass to murder children?

You cant be that naive. How is it murder when to him he is just taking back what he gave? Taken them back to a much better place that is, to punish people on earth for their own sins. Its all his great plan to teach mankind to grow up and to love one another like everyone is our child. To God they are souls, he is just taking them from earth to heaven so your the one who needs to grow up spiritually.

When he and all these kids come back and chastise you for things like this wont you feel ignorant?

FIrst - you're assuming that if there is a God, he wouldn't have any views that upset you.

Second - just because you can't think of a good reason for God to do these things, doesn't mean a reason does not exist.

Regards,

FTE

If anyone really wants to expand their mind.. listen to this.

Originally posted by windword

God was playing a sadistic game with Moses and Pharaoh. Read you Bible again. God kept hardening Pharaoh's heart, and then punishing for it. Sick, not righteous god.

And, what? You admit that Egypt had gods that your god challenged. So, it was a pissing match between gods, to see who god was bigger and stronger and Yahweh won! Whoopi! So I guess that's proof that your god isn't the ONLY god after all, huh?

The one I highlighted is a prove that the god in bible is man made.

Let say Ron wanted to kill Sarah... Jerry the messenger of god was there, telling Ron it's a sin to kill. But in the end Ron killed Sarah... Then Jerry wrote in the bible, god has hardened Ron's heart.

Sounds lame....

The second highlight gods of egypt vs god of israel, what is this? sounds like RTS between gods, age of mythology? or command and conquer?
Another proof that god and gods are man made

This will be my last post in this thread

reply to post by windword

Thank you for commenting on my post Windword!

The God of the Old Testament, supposedly ordered the abortion of 10's of 1000's of babies.

Really? Give me book, chapter, and verse in which God ordered pregnancies terminated. Don't give me Numbers 5, I'll get to that in a moment.

He ordered that the enemy's infants should be dashed against the rocks!

"How blessed will be the one who seizes and dashes your little ones against the rock," (Psalm 137:9)

Let's look at this for a minute. The psalmist wrote this during exile from the Babylonian captivity of the Jews. He was a witness to many attrocities against God's people by the Babylonians during this time: torture, rape, killings, and murdering of children. In this culture, revenge was prevelent and very common. The psalmist is wishing the same actions be taken against his enemies, due to the total devistation surrounding them. This was not a command from God, but a call for retribution from the psalmist, himself.

In fact in the book Numbers God gives instructions on how and when to conduct abortions in the temple.

This is not instructions for how to do abortions in the temple. It was a test. A test to prove guilt or inocessence in the eyes of God and the community. I see that you love to bring up hebrew law from the Torah. That would be applicible to Jews, but not Christians. Christians are not bound by the "curse of the law". We live under a new covenent with God. Oh here's something from the 'Protoevangelium of James', written in about the 2nd century:

3) And the high priest said, "I will give you the water of the Lord's wrath to drink and it will make your sin clear in your eyes." (4) And taking the water, the high priest gave it to Joseph to drink and sent him out into the desert. And he returned unharmed.
(5) And he made the young girl drink also and sent her out into the desert. And she came back unharmed. (6) And all the people were astonished that their sins were not revealed. (7) And the high priest said, "If the Lord God has not revealed your sins, I will not judge you either." And he released them. (8) And Joseph took Mary and went away to his house, rejoicing and praising the God of Israel.

Obviously this was not an abortion.

Man also killed in the name of god, and claimed to be under his order. Man has followed in God's footsteps, and has become a killing machine.

Man also kills out of greed, power, money, jealousy, revenge, and defense of their nation. Your reasoning is inadequate.

Right. God doesn't just kill children and babies. He's indescriminate. He'll kill anyone, anytime.

Your opinion. God's nature is one of holiness, righteousness, and love. One can not be against one's own nature.

The citizens of Egypt had no power or influence over what was happening.

On the contrary, they gave themselves over to their powerless gods/goddess'. Their dieties were powerless to God Almighty. One would think, "If the Jew's God can do this, maybe I am worshiping the wrong god!" Coptic Christians originated in Egypt. Copts have ties through the pharoanian tradition as far back as ancient Egypt.

You admit that Egypt had gods that your god challenged.

Of course there were other "gods" in the bible. At least 33 false gods were mentioned in the bible. All of which were stumbling blocks which were warned about. The fallen cherub created these gods to deceive man and to prevent the coming of the messiah.

Once again, it was nice that you examine my posts Windword.
God Bless

Originally posted by windword
Originally posted by dodol


God was playing a sadistic game with Moses and Pharaoh. Read you Bible again. God kept hardening Pharaoh's heart, and then punishing for it. Sick, not righteous god.

Formatting is somewhat screwy, my apologies. Anyways...

Why did you include that part? That doesn't prove anything. All that proves is that by that one individuals measure that the god of the bible does not meet his own subjective view of morality and ethics.Secondly you will have to first prove that the bible you are quoting is the actual word of god, and that this god is real. Until then all this proves is that you personally do not like god based on available resources, which at no point are proof or disproof of ANYTHING related to god.

And, what? You admit that Egypt had gods that your god challenged. So, it was a pissing match between gods, to see who god was bigger and stronger and Yahweh won! Whoopi! So I guess that's proof that your god isn't the ONLY god after all, huh?

The one I highlighted is a prove that the god in bible is man made.

No, it doesn't.And what you highlighted was written by someone who is clearly biblically ignorant. The bible says that there ARE other gods as well as "false" gods ( Think of the nephilim) and fake gods. Hence why the ten commandments says " thou shalt have no other gods before me." nearly every english translation of the Ten commandments translates that line as such. "Other" is also translated as "strange." You are correct though, the bible is man made. It is only believers and non-believers who try convincing eachother that it is the actual word of god. At no point did Jesus or YHWH claim that any bible is his true unabated word. That doesn't mean that there is or is not truth in it either. In other words, we have know real way of knowing what it is other then that it is a book that claims to be a testament of gods will, word, and history. It is many things, like any other book.

Monotheism is the worship of only one god. It does not mean that there is only one god. The christians and jews believe that YHWH is the only TRUE god. Not the only one that exists. Like the poster above me said, The bible speaks of at least 33 other gods. The most sacred commandments in their religion directly implies the existence of other gods.

Let say Ron wanted to kill Sarah... Jerry the messenger of god was there, telling Ron it's a sin to kill. But in the end Ron killed Sarah... Then Jerry wrote in the bible, god has hardened Ron's heart.

Sounds lame....

When you over simplify it and ignore that the higher reasoning may not have been included in that one particular version of the bible, then yes. One could say it is lame. It's still rons fault for killing sarah. God only gave you the option. Just because god "hardened" his heart does not mean that he forced ron to do it. And secondly, you are taking that as a literal description of what god did. You are using a TRANSLATION of a book written in an ancient language that does not directly translate into english or any other commonly used modern language. The word you are taking issue with can also be translated as great, grievous, heavy, sore, hard, much, slow, hardened, heavier, laden, thick. Christians to this day still debate on what that word means when used in the context you presented it in. One argument is that god merely facilitated the hardening of pharoahs heart. That it was pharaohs choice to be hardened in the end. Nobody really knows what it actually means, let alone what actually happened...Which is maddening for those who strictly live in a world of absolutes.

The second highlight gods of egypt vs god of israel, what is this? sounds like RTS between gods, age of mythology? or command and conquer?
Another proof that god and gods are man made

Again, No. You need to do your own research. Command and conquer? Really dude? Comparing it to a video-game genre does little to prove your stance. Second, that is like comparing an electric guitar to a freaking oboe. The only similarity is that they both produce tones and timbres and notes of certain pitches. Is president obama like hitler because he supports gun-control? No. He isn't.

This will be my last post in this thread

edit on 13-1-2013 by dodol because: (no reason given)

edit on 13-1-2013 by dodol because: (no reason given)

GREAT! Now go out there and actually read the book you are arguing against.You clearly have the ability to do so. I'll make it easy for you and PM some resources on the subject. Also, I encourage you to stay away from christian AND atheist websites that purport to tell the "truth." about ANYTHING in the bible. Not until you have at least read a few of the books in it front to back. Try praying before-hand if you "feel" that it will help you understand it from a spiritual perspective. Remember, the bible is a very complex book that is open to interpretation. Taking your opinion from others will make you nothing more than an intellectual scrapbook ( which isn't totally bad since i am one myself) . But that doesn't mean you are wrong (or right) when you come to the same conclusions others have. Good luck and God bless.

reply to post by lobotomizemecapin


It would be a good point, except for a few things only a real Christian can understand, and by real I mean someone who has been literally born again (in the spiritual sense), has had a vivid encounter with God and seen God in a very real (non physical) sense. IOW, God is a personage, a very real, living being, and so are Jesus and the Holy Spirit. The cruel aggressors in this conflict were the Egyptians, so it isn't fair to exclude this from the context in which it occurred. Most important, however, is that the Kingdom of God is NOT of this world, but is an eternal realm of infinite bliss, and what's more, is that all children who die in this realm are automatically welcomed into the Heavenly realm. These "murders" of children that you speak of were surely not acts of violence against children, but only a transition to God's eternal realm. Nor was it a senseless act, but a direct intervention by God designed to persuade Pharoah to free the Israelites.

Yeah, I can well understand why some people balk at some of these events in the OT, especially those who haven't had a defining moment with God. I never fail to be amazed at some things, but God has a very long range purpose of recruiting mankind to turning to Him. He bestows that burden on some, not other.

reply to post by lobotomizemecapin


Nice way to try and take this piece of scripture out of context. I feel sad for those who might follow this atrocity of butchering God's Word.

Originally posted by cusanus
reply to post by lobotomizemecapin

 

It would be a good point, except for a few things only a real Christian can understand, and by real I mean someone who has been literally born again (in the spiritual sense), has had a vivid encounter with God and seen God in a very real (non physical) sense. IOW, God is a personage, a very real, living being, and so are Jesus and the Holy Spirit. The cruel aggressors in this conflict were the Egyptians, so it isn't fair to exclude this from the context in which it occurred. Most important, however, is that the Kingdom of God is NOT of this world, but is an eternal realm of infinite bliss, and what's more, is that all children who die in this realm are automatically welcomed into the Heavenly realm. These "murders" of children that you speak of were surely not acts of violence against children, but only a transition to God's eternal realm. Nor was it a senseless act, but a direct intervention by God designed to persuade Pharoah to free the Israelites.

Yeah, I can well understand why some people balk at some of these events in the OT, especially those who haven't had a defining moment with God. I never fail to be amazed at some things, but God has a very long range purpose of recruiting mankind to turning to Him. He bestows that burden on some, not other.

Very well presented. Very well indeed!

What I really find interesting is the story that King Solomon (a pretty ruthless guy according to some documentaries I saw) was the guy who held in possession an "Ark of the Covenant", which was claimed to have been given by "God" himself.

This Ark supposedly was able to emanate a beam or power so strong that it can level entire armies like nothing.

Now either you believe that, or it may be a fabrication.

(If so,) Why would anyone create such a fabrication/lie?

No lets think about that.. these guys (Kings Solomon, David, Hiram I, who were supposedly buddies) possibly ruthless kings, who rule over a large empire, claim to have some weapon of mass destruction made by 'God'.

Now why would any king (or kings) who rule over a large empire want to fabricate such a story?

Lets say I was a rival king and wanted what they had. If I were a gullible ancient rival king, I would be shaking in my boots at the thought of trying to conquer them. After all, they have 'God' on their side.

For all we know, these intimidating stories of 'God' and the Bible, came from them (that alliance of kings) also.

Originally posted by cusanus
reply to post by lobotomizemecapin

 

nd what's more, is that all children who die in this realm are automatically welcomed into the Heavenly realm. These "murders" of children that you speak of were surely not acts of violence against children, but only a transition to God's eternal realm.

I think what it comes down to on the non-believers end is that they do not understand how an after-life works from a spiritual sense. They are unable to recognize that the seeming cruelty is a by-product of their parents actions and their own. And to be fair, us believers are also in the dark as well. We both operate on a lot of misconceptions that the Churches and various authors of literature have created. For example when people describe hell or the heaven they usually refer to Inferno or Paradise lost. The bible doesn't give a definite description of what happens once we die. I personally believe that people aren't held accountable for their actions until they hit a certain stage in psychological development. Essentially, i agree with the " age of accountability" hypothesis others have presented. Scientifically speaking the human brain doesn't stop developing until our mid to late 20's. It's actually a relatively new idea that has been hotly debated in the field. I know from my own experience that children are capable of evil, but they do not understand why. I see no logical reason for god to punish them in the afterlife. But i do stumble when considering that god is supposedly omnipotent. I reconcile it by understanding that maybe god isn't omnipotent in the same sense we think he is. In other words, god is limited by his own laws, which we may or may not know. I think it is best to blame the parents in the end. A child is a product of their environment as well as their nature. We are all born with the capacity for evil, it isn't until we grow older and experience more that we develop the understanding of why we do what we do and why it is wrong. But not everyone hits that stage, regardless of their upbringing or faith. This leads me to believe that idea is one reason why christ said " forgive them, they know not what they do."

One thing we do not know is if the soul was present during these killings. Based on NDE, scriptural and personal "prophetic" testimonies it would seem that God supposedly has the ability to lift up the soul and by extension the consciousness. IF that is indeed the case then that which dies is merely a husk and not the true self. Much like how a bad RAM stick doesn't destroy the OS. It operates and reacts off of base functions. So naturally, a dying child would scream and feel pain on a physical level, but on a conscientious level it would feel nothing. You would be watching your own head get cut off. As for your soul It will be in either heaven or put into a state of sleep until the new-earth enters our time-line. I don't know if any of this is factually true mind you, it's just the conclusions that i have been able to draw based on what i know.

Maybe god really is a sick, psychopathic demi-urge and Jesus was the force that put an end to it. I really don't know, and i wish other people were as comfortable as i am in admitting ignorance on the matter.

reply to post by DeathShield

Why did you include that part? That doesn't prove anything. All that proves is that by that one individuals measure that the god of the bible does not meet his own subjective view of morality and ethics.Secondly you will have to first prove that the bible you are quoting is the actual word of god, and that this god is real. Until then all this proves is that you personally do not like god based on available resources, which at no point are proof or disproof of ANYTHING related to god.

I included the part of the MYTH that god hardened the Pharaoh's heart, because it highlights the constant bias of the story. If this god was so great, Pharaoh couldn't have resisted. But, because he didn't, GOD made him resist.

If we are to believe this Hebrew tribal god was the real deal, as so many religious folk pin their fate to, then we have to accept that this god likes to play games and toy with people's lives. I feel sorry for those who pin the fate of this life and the afterlife as well to this deity.

The bible says that there ARE other gods as well as "false" gods ( Think of the nephilim) and fake gods. Hence why the ten commandments says " thou shalt have no other gods before me." nearly every english translation of the Ten commandments translates that line as such.

How can anyone believe that any of these deities that were vying for worship in the area, at the time, were really gods, and that one of them was really the One True God and creator of the entire universe?! Then to take that belief and use it as sacred justification to set out and "ethnically cleanse" everything in the swath of their passage, like the Israelites did, is madness.

It's time to label this line as thinking for what it is, a death cult.

As far as the Ten Commandments: The 10 Commandments are Unnecessary, Irrelevant and Immoral

reply to post by Siberbat


Happy to reply to your post, and happy to answer your request.

The God of the Old Testament, supposedly ordered the abortion of 10's of 1000's of babies.[/quote/] Really? Give me book, chapter, and verse in which God ordered pregnancies terminated. Don't give me Numbers 5, I'll get to that in a moment.

This is a promise from "God."

Hosea13:16 Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.

I'm sure that there were some pregnant women in these cities.

Deuteronomy13:15 Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword.

Deuteronomy20:16 However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes.

Joshua invaded and killed in inhabitants of 31 cities in this manner

Joshuea12: Now these are the kings of the land, which the children of Israel smote, and possessed their land on the other side Jordan toward the rising of the sun, from the river Arnon unto mount Hermon, and all the plain on the east:
24 The king of Tirzah, one: all the kings thirty and one.

Ezekiel 9:6 Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house.

Numbers 31:17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

This is not instructions for how to do abortions in the temple. It was a test. A test to prove guilt or inocessence in the eyes of God and the community.

Don't be naive! What do you think happens when a man and a woman sleep together? What do you think happens to a pregnant woman, who drinks the water that contains the curse of the "Lord's wrath" that makes her belly swell up and her "thigh" rot and to become a curse upon her people?

Or do you believe in magic water that only effects women who are pregnant from men who aren't their husband?

And your little story..............so, if Mary hadn't been pure, and had been with a man after all, she would have aborted! If she hadn't been pregnant, the evidence of being unfaithful, they wouldn't have made her drink the water in first place. See how that works? When in doubt, give the abortion medicine to the woman. If it doesn't work, she wasn't pregnant.

I see that you love to bring up hebrew law from the Torah. That would be applicible to Jews, but not Christians.

That's the GOD that we're talking about in this thread. Do Christians worship the God of the OT? Christians think that you aren't under OT law, but they still defend his action and his commands of murder, that he had his people carry out for him.

Originally posted by jasonl1983
I was at a Catholic Christmas mass ( No I am not a Christian, thank you very much. But you must study your enemy if you hope to defeat them) where the priest basically said we shouldn't be sad about the children's deaths because it was God's plan. I had to suppress the strong urge to strike that man on the mouth.

That's creepy. You're sort of an anti-Christian spy?

I think organized religion is like a car motor that's lost 3 of its 4 quarts of oil and is ready to seize up, for a rather graphic and tortuous metaphor. Just wait and cut the juvenile spying stuff. The God of the Old Testament is indeed a bloody insane b@stard and I think most Christians would agree. The idea is that he's sanitized or justified somehow by decent Christian people and his ways appeal only to long-dead sand-bound people. Faith and religion is what each person makes it in his or her heart.

Originally posted by nOraKat
What I really find interesting is the story that King Solomon (a pretty ruthless guy according to some documentaries I saw) was the guy who held in possession an "Ark of the Covenant", which was claimed to have been given by "God" himself.

This Ark supposedly was able to emanate a beam or power so strong that it can level entire armies like nothing.

Now either you believe that, or it may be a fabrication.

(If so,) Why would anyone create such a fabrication/lie?

No lets think about that.. these guys (Kings Solomon, David, Hiram I, who were supposedly buddies) possibly ruthless kings, who rule over a large empire, claim to have some weapon of mass destruction made by 'God'.

Now why would any king (or kings) who rule over a large empire want to fabricate such a story?

Lets say I was a rival king and wanted what they had. If I were a gullible ancient rival king, I would be shaking in my boots at the thought of trying to conquer them. After all, they have 'God' on their side.

For all we know, these intimidating stories of 'God' and the Bible, came from them (that alliance of kings) also.

Thats the most sensible explaination for the bible that i`ve ever heard and it is historically accurate for the people of that region.
Even to this very day the leaders of that region continue to rely on bluff and bluster to avoid conflict rather than rely on real power to win conflicts.
saddam hussien and the gulf wars is a perfect real world example of this.

reply to post by WhamBamTYM


What you call "spying" I call education. When I speak out against something like Christianity, I do not want to be uninformed or ignorant. But I don't consider it spying because their doors were open to everyone, it was a public event in my mind.

reply to post by jasonl1983

Look! I'm just jumping in here. I guess my post is directed toward those who use human sentiment to justify slamming the Great God. One's time would be more productively spent trying to understand God.
Your choices are quite limited. If there is no Great God that is above all the little wanna be gods then you have no guarantee that there is any existance after this life. Infact, with that presumption, it points to no existance at all. There is no hope of afterlife for you. No hope of eternal life.
If there is a Great God then you are in deep doo doo. In either case you are in deep doo doo.
Why do you spend time justifying your hatred for the Great God that you don't believe in?
If there is a Great God then he owns everything here.The cattle on a thousand hills. All the people including the children that some of you are so concerned about. Your very soul and existance.
These things you bandy about with such little concern are things very heavy in consequence.
It is the perogative of the Great God to situate and use and kill and save all those of his choosing. He can love one and hate the other. He can bless one and curse the other. He can make the rules as he wishes and whop are you or I to question it? This whole discussion is vanity.
But I am going to give you a sign. something you cannot refute. Great earthquake. Americans go into captivity.
Obama gets possessed. Concentration camps in full swing. Marriage supper of the Lamb. Mark of the beast is set up and Two witnesses come. Disclosure of the so-called extraterestrials who in reality are nothing more than fallen angels deceiving mankind with a false gospel. Once this starts you can count the days and the Lord Jesus will return to destroy the battle out of the earth and set up his kingdom. When you see these things happen then it is a sign that you didn't know your arse from a hole in the ground about God.
Today is a day of salvation. Call on God and seek his forgiveness while it is today.

reply to post by cantyousee


Sod off, it's your "Great God''s plan to turn the Earth into a steaming landfill populated by insane humans hellbent on dominating the entire planet.

Originally posted by jasonl1983
reply to post by cantyousee

 

Sod off, it's your "Great God''s plan to turn the Earth into a steaming landfill populated by insane humans hellbent on dominating the entire planet.

Jesus is heaven bent on dominating the entire planet. He has been since he created it. But there had to be a way to identify and cull the opposition. There isn't gonna be any room on this planet for people who are evil.
I would think that to be a blessing. I guess it depends on one's outlook.