Why Kid Yourself America, Gun Control isn Not About the 2nd Ammendment

OP have you actually read the second amendment?

AMENDMENT II

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

Is this thread really about your ego? Since you don't know what you're actually talking about and you're making wide spread baseless assumptions, I can come to the general conclusion that you're only doing this to serve your own ego. Oh am I wrong? Now you realize how silly you sound.

And have you actually met a true to the core, defender of the second amendment?

Every gun owner I personally know is extremely peculiar about gun safety and training.

When you say that, have you actually considered all the ramifications of what that really means? NO ONE is without the right to bear arms. That means every single person is allowed to carry, full stop. It's not a privilege, it's a right. That's inalienable. That's what "right" means.

If the right to bear arms is to defend your home and family, then it *must* be extended to each and every person living and breathing on US soil - no exceptions. Is that not correct? That being the case, just think about every situation where things might just go badly when every single person around you is packing. No matter where you go, guns are everywhere. Think about that being the case literally everywhere. The need to protect yourself at all times. The need.

Wouldn't it be well-advised to consider first what is wrong with a society where that is the case?

And while you're at it, you might want to ask for the rights and freedoms that were nixed from life in the US by the Patriot Act. I would miss those a lot more than I would a roomful of guns.

I can see this as being quite an offensive topic to some people.
It's not about "Ug I got a gun, bang bang I can kill you"

Essential liberties are being eroded away all the time and they are seldom given back.
I am not an American neither do I live in the USA but I still respect the constitition given to
the American people. It's about what the founders did to actually give you the freedom you
enjoy to this day and as a safety net as a warning to an oppressive tyranny...
Limbo
www.archives.gov...
en.wikipedia.org...

Originally posted by michael1983l
Its about power. You all masquerade that it is about protecting your civil liberties and your constitution, but it is not is it? start being honest with yourselves and others about the real reason you want to keep your gun. It is about feeling powerful isn't it? That is all it is, you think that owning a gun makes you powerful, because you have the ability to take somebodys life should you choose to do so. This makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside, that you have the power to end a life at the detention of your trigger finger. You do not want your government to take this power away from you because it will leave a void in your life. You feel so strongly about this that you are willing to see so many deaths of your citizens each year to uphold your right to feel powerful oops i mean bear arms.

Maybe if you all started being honest about why you really don't want gun control, then us outsiders might be able to accept your reasoning.

Just a thought.

I don't think any one gun owner speaks for all others. Some may just like the 'power' as you say. Other's maybe more accurately enjoy the power of self defense. Self defense really isn't a bad thing. I doubt for most gun owners ownership is about feeling 'warm and fuzzy'. It's really for many about being able to take care of yourself, loved ones, and others should the need arise. The alternative is to have to turn to the Nanny State to protect you. Those that run the Nanny State by and large Imo are killers, thugs, and a well protected criminal class. I really don't trust them at all to take care of me or mine in any way. 9-11 was a wake up call.

Governments routinely historically kill huge numbers of their own after they have weakened them and made them helpless. Ture story. If the Emperor truly had an interest in the commoner rather than in power and riches we easily have the resources to solve much of the problems that lead to violence. THEN maybe we wouldn't NEED as many guns to defend ourselves. It's not about that, in fact I belive it's quite the opposite. Gun control attempts here in the U.S. like most all other countries is about making the individual helpless and defenseless so they have to become reliant on The State (the toy of the 0.00001%) and in the process come fully under it's control.

Originally posted by michael1983l
Its about power. You all masquerade that it is about protecting your civil liberties and your constitution, but it is not is it? start being honest with yourselves and others about the real reason you want to keep your gun. It is about feeling powerful isn't it? That is all it is, you think that owning a gun makes you powerful, because you have the ability to take somebodys life should you choose to do so. This makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside, that you have the power to end a life at the detention of your trigger finger. You do not want your government to take this power away from you because it will leave a void in your life. You feel so strongly about this that you are willing to see so many deaths of your citizens each year to uphold your right to feel powerful oops i mean bear arms.

Maybe if you all started being honest about why you really don't want gun control, then us outsiders might be able to accept your reasoning.

Just a thought.

Can I ask a simple question? What do I as an American, give a damn what 'outsiders' think of my reason for wanting a gun?

The Bill of Rights says I can own a gun. And so I do. I don't hunt with it. I don't parade it around acting tough. I take it down to my local shooting range because I enjoy shooting targets. That's it.

The REAL reason why people get so pissed about this, and defend the 2nd Amendment is because once you start changing one around, what is to stop you from changing them all???

You're wrong.

reply to post by coyotepoet


Where will the febs put these prisoners. 10,000, 20,000 how many people can the 700,000 police handle?

reply to post by michael1983l


Well, if you think about it, the reason America's founders wanted Americans to have guns was about power. By having a well-armed populace, power would not be centralized and consolidated.

Now, I don't think you should go around guessing about other people's reasons for supporting the 2nd Amendment though. Hopefully you're not projecting your own mindset onto them, but at the very least you're painting a broad brush that maligns a lot of folks. Is it nice to be able to defend yourself? Is it nice to know you won't be completely unable to respond in kind when some pistol-wielding thug breaks down your door in the middle of the night? Sure. There is a certain comfort in knowing you are not entirely at the mercy of someone else. I would suggest to you that feeling empowered by a firearm is not necessarily a bad thing, as long as one does not take it too far. (For instance, I bet soldiers are pretty glad for their weapons when they're in a firefight! In cases of self-defense or armed combat, feeling empowered by knowing that you are equipped to deal with the enemy is a good thing, I would say.) But (correct me if I am wrong) you seem to want to paint many Americans as just wanting to kill people...and I don't think that is true. Most Americans handle and use their firearms responsibly.

The other problem with this sort of an argument is that it shifts the debate from facts and statistics (i.e. do people use guns defensively? Which areas have the most violence? Do guns really protect against tyrannical governments?) Instead, what happens is things devolve into a "you are just a mentally disturbed person clinging to your guns/religion" "no I'm not" "yes you are!" sort of debate. If you're confident in your case, I'd recommend resting it on facts and logical arguments, not the baseless claim that a bunch of people you've never met are all some sort of psychopath.

Originally posted by michael1983l
Text

Originally posted by Pinke
I'm not American.

I'm a pretty tiny person

Yes many gun owners are.

If you need it for your job, that is a legitimate reason. But stuffing one under your pillow at night is not.

edit on 9-1-2013 by michael1983l because: (no reason given)

How can you determine what a legitimate reason is? Who are you to tell someone what is and is not legitimate? Are they not your equal? I'm not following the logic here.

reply to post by michael1983l


You assume an awful lot don't you? I mean you assume everyone's feelings about the guns they own. While it is possible your point is valid for some I seriously doubt it applies to most as most people will never fire their gun at a person and statistically far more people have died from other causes so if your trying to get people to change their minds based on gun related deaths then its a strawman argument.

Also I would wager most people don't think about the way their gun makes them feel until they need it or want to use it and even then I very much doubt every American with a gun has boner for murder especially based on their ownership of said gun. I have a gun. Just one that I like to go shoot at a range mostly for fun and I also hope to hunt with it someday. When I bought it I really wasn't thinking about how well it could kill people and while I'll NEVER give up that gun that has everything to do with my fear of tyrannical government. A gun is a citizens only defense against tyrannical a government so long as that government is armed and is displaying nazi-esc policies and if you don't believe me when I say that then please read, "The End of America" by Naomi Wolf.

I would like to point out just how stupid your assumption is. You assume Americans, neigh, people need a gun to feel powerful enough to be capable of taking a life but you are wrong, at least from my perspective. Even if I were to never own a gun, I wouldn't need one to obtain that feeling of power. Because while a gun might make the job of killing another person easier, so does any weapon including no weapon. I'm sure experts in martial arts have no problem feeling that powerful. Next time you want to try and disarm an entire nation with reason and logic maybe you should use some.

Please see the Supreme Court Decision in 1939 United States v. Miller

It does concern a shot gun and the lengthen of a shotgun barrel too.


Describing the constitutional authority under which Congress could call forth state militia, the Court stated, "With obvious purpose to assure the continuation and render possible the effectiveness of such forces the declaration and guarantee of the Second Amendment were made. It must be interpreted and applied with that end in view."

In dicta, the Court also looked to historical sources to explain the meaning of "militia" as set down by the authors of the Constitution:

"The significance attributed to the term Militia appears from the debates in the Convention, the history and legislation of Colonies and States, and the writings of approved commentators. These show plainly enough that the Militia comprised all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense. 'A body of citizens enrolled for military discipline.' And further, that ordinarily when called for service these men were expected to appear bearing arms supplied by themselves and of the kind in common use at the time."

reply to post by michael1983l


Nope, wrong, sorry. I don't feel anymore powerful with a gun than without one. I have 8 guns, a .38 revolver, a .22 revolver, a BSA .303 rifle, a Mauser 8mm, a Brazilian Arms 12ga single shot, a Winchester 12ga pump, a Mossberg 12ga auto loader and an old Savage bolt action single shot .22. I don't get a boner when I go into the gun closet. I don't feel like Rambo or Audie Murphy when I hold them. Here's what I do use them for: Home defense, I live away out into the country, it will take the police quite a while to come if I was to call. Hunting: deer, duck, ect. And sport: skeet and target shooting. I haven't mentioned that nearly all of them are an heirloom or have some kind of sentimental value. The .303 was given to my dad by my great uncle, right before he died. The old 12 gauge pump was given to my grandfather by my grandmother (both deceased now) for their 5th anniversary. The .22 rifle was the first gun that my 2 brothers and I ever fired. To us, these are just as important as Grandma's wedding ring, or any other heirloom. They have never been used to fire on anybody (except maybe the Mauser since it is a WWII item). Why does it bother you so much if I have them. There are a few occasions where if we had not had them, we could all have been killed or terrorized by people who have tried to break in.

What people don't realize is producing a gun in a situation can stop the situation without a shot being fired. It has nothing to do with feeling "manly" or "powerful".

Originally posted by luciddream
reply to post by dorkfish87

 

Yes except, guy with a gun could just shoot you from across the parking lot while... 2 hands has its limitation, and gives a fighting chance to the victim.

Of course, two hands can't kill 10 people in 3 sec either.

Two hands can make a bomb that kills hundreds, if not thousands. Thats the thing that makes no sense with you anti gun people, you all seem to forget the other much more heinous ways people kill other people. Guns arent the only things people use to kill. Guess yall are following hating trends, more so than thinking logically.

The ONLY emotion that I can conceive that I would EVER attribute directly to any of my guns....Would be the time that I truly NEEDED it...and did not HAVE it!

reply to post by michael1983l


You're trying to create seperate issues out of the same one. America was built on the principles(idealistically if not always in practice) of individual responsibility. That applies to ones life, to ones place in society, and ones relationship to government. The power of ideas can carry a philosophical debate, but they have little direct impact on physical reality. Reality is ruled by physical power. The state is the concentration of power. The same power that rules life on the streets, is the same power exerted at much grander scale by the government. As such, the power of government is potentially a much greater threat. Only physical power, or presumed threat thereof, protects you individually against other predatory humans, as well as against the potential abuse of governmental power. That power at the end of your finger as you put it, is what ultimately safeguards your personal well being individually and as a society. Firearms are an insurance policy against abuses from fellow humans, be they acting individually, or as part of collective action in the form of a government.

History has shown repeatedly, EVERY SINGLE GOVERNMENT EVER CREATED HAS FAILED. Some last longer then others. Some collapse into anarchy, some are invaded, some turn into tyranny. But in the end, the governments people have relied on have eventually left them at the mercy of fate, or turned on them. Even if the moment of truth is just a dark street corner with a gang of thugs, the government repeatedly fails in its presumed reason for being, to protect your person. At that time, each individual must be responsible for their own well being.

The power you talk about is the ability to inflict violence, but its purpose is the same, to protect you individually, whether its protecting you from criminals, or from government failing to respect your rights. The 2nd AD is about acknowledging the ultimate responsibility for personal well being when the government fails you is the individual.

reply to post by michael1983l


Hitler was less than a hundred years ago. You're right, gun control is about power. Power and control over the people by Government.

Wow. No offense, but the OP is about the most extreme opposite of reality post I've ever read. Gun control is about people control and having power over subjects rather than free citizens. Gun control is about power. And if you buy into some hokey line that the government will protect you from bad guys, you are more naive than the conservatives who believe that giving up the 4th Amendment protects them from foreign terrorists.

If you mean it is about individuals and citizens having power and keeping the tyrants in check? You betcha. Damn straight.

But your title is correct about 1 thing: it's not necessarily about the 2nd amendment. it is about the natural right of a citizen to protect their own life, safety, family, and property. In other words, basic human dignity vs being a centrally managed sheep

reply to post by CosmicEgg

I am more worried about some gangbanger with a Saturday Night Special in his waistband than I am about the average but sane and trained citizen with a fully automatic assault rifle (sturmgewehr) in his gun case. Every sane and trained citizen should have the right to keep and bear arms....but for those that abuse the right that right should be restricted if not curtailed altogether. While I have the floor...I would suggest that "traitors" should have that right revoked also ("Mrs. Feinstein, surrender your gun!").

reply to post by michael1983l

Its about power. You all masquerade that it is about protecting your civil liberties and your constitution, but it is not is it? start being honest with yourselves and others about the real reason you want to keep your gun. It is about feeling powerful isn't it? That is all it is, you think that owning a gun makes you powerful, because you have the ability to take somebodys life should you choose to do so. This makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside, that you have the power to end a life at the detention of your trigger finger. You do not want your government to take this power away from you because it will leave a void in your life. You feel so strongly about this that you are willing to see so many deaths of your citizens each year to uphold your right to feel powerful oops i mean bear arms. Maybe if you all started being honest about why you really don't want gun control, then us outsiders might be able to accept your reasoning.

reply to post by CosmicCitizen


I know of a couple of cases where just displaying a gun, up on the dash, likely saved the lives of the car's occupants. Ever been in the city and stopped at a sign and have your car rocked and beat on by people wanting in (or it)? Sometimes they don't get the message, not ok. I couldn't imagine living in Chicago and going out in parts of that city at night, and possibly breaking down somewhere you don't really want to stop at, and not being reasonably armed. I'm glad I don't live there.

I sometimes wonder if people in the U.K. (not to pick on them but..) have any idea what it's like to be downtown in various major U.S. cities after dark. And especially certain parts of them that one might need to travel through. There are parts of a major city about 100 miles from me that the cops won't even go through after dark. I've heard direct from people who have had to work there they shoot at EM's just for fun when you are trying to save a life. Rough, rough places. Some parts the rats are as big as cats. NOt kidding. Wait till you see someone dropped from a 3rd story building because they were 'in the wrong place'. If you break down THERE you're probably going to wish you had several large clips, otherwise even armed you STILL might not make it. That's what many Americans face here in many big cities.