Why America is Severely Broken - Meet Alice Walton

i think a lot of you are missing the point and keep talking about the cashiers being paid low. the problem there is they are being kept at poverty levels because walmart will not give them enough hours so they can avoid giving benefits, that on itself is evil considering the company makes billions upon billions of profits every year, if they were to give their employees benefits and full time work i would argue that they would still have substantial profits while improving the lifestyle of their employees, but i digress, the main point you guys are missing is not the cashier jobs but the millions of jobs shipped overseas!

i am still trying to wrap my head around the fact that we denounce communism but we do massive amounts of business w a country that the only way they can give us products at rock bottom prices is because of the very communist practices we denounce!!!!!! walmart is basically asking the chinese to do things they cannot legally have their own countrymen do, create products in unsafe environments, using unsafe materials and polluting the earth in inhumane conditions, long work hours and slave like wages. we basically found a country that could make products using early 1900s mentality of using a 12 year old to work in a factory for 14 hours a day and if he cuts his hand off bah humbug send in the next slave, capitalist attitude. that kind of business practice would never be allowed in the united states but according to some people on this board those types of practices should be legal in the u.s because after all unskilled labor should basically be treated and compensated like slaves. you know who else was unskilled labor? the plantation workers pre civil war!!!!!

so now you see how things have changed but not really??

reply to post by Honor93


I have been a father for 17 years, so don't assume (quid pro quo).

I am afraid we will have to agree to disagree on the subject of financial compensation.

I started working at seventeen and walked onto a jobsite making $19.50 an hour as unskilled labor. Back breaking work running a jackhammer and setting forms for concrete. I do not see those jobs being handed out anymore (unless you pay to join a union, but thats another thread).

Parents are not paid to raise their kids because they are THEIR kids. In politics we have rules and regs, banking has rules, teaching has rules. Parenting has no rules. I will concede that parents should be compensated when parents are required to raise their children under standards. I mean rules such as standards and limits. All people regardless of whether they are sweeping floors, raising kids, or building boats have LAWS, that is not what I mean.

Should parents have an industry standard? Should there be an outside agency to perform QA/QC for every household? Again, rules and regulations NOT laws. There are already agencies in place for laws concerning children (I will not get into how screwed that system is).

I was raised to give an honest days labor for an honest days pay. I raised my kid to do the same. I was also raised to not concern myself with what the neighbor had, unless it wasn't enough to get by.

Originally posted by iwilliam

Originally posted by fnpmitchreturns
reply to post by newcovenant

 

Now I know that many people will fault the Food Stamp Program itself but when you consider the cost of living and price of food today

I have to laugh at people who complain about the food stamp program. I wonder if they realize the asset cap is $2000 and has been that way since the program was started in 1984....

So, in 1984 the government believed that $2000 in assets was poor enough to be on a gov food program .... Yet in 2012 inflation adjusted dollars the asset cap has the buying power of $750 ?????? or if the program would have adjusted the cap with a COLA tied to the CPI the asset cap now would be about $5500 ......

in reality you have to be more than twice as poor to get food stamps than in 1984 ...... austerity American style .....

And yet the number of people who qualify has gone up. Funny thing.

Yes William .. that is right...... most Americans are oblivious to what inflation is and how it has destroyed their earnings ... I guess they are too stupid to see how poor the poor are now......

reply to post by conspiracy nut

pardon, but i do believe you are misinterpreting the conversation.
we were discussing 'skilled' vs 'unskilled' labors.

yes, the outsourcing is a HUGE contributing factor but that wasn't the focus of the conversation of which you're commenting.

and quite frankly, at this point in time, the USA does not have a manufacturing base that could supply Walmart and that is the problem. Walmart was built with the expressed focus of featuring "made in America" products at low/low prices.

that isn't the business model active today.

why is that so hard for you wrap your head around ?
we have had a communist subversion going on in this country for the better part of 70 yrs now ... why in the world are you surprised ?

don't you remember NAFTA ?

sorry, i cannot agree with "capitalist attitude" ... it is not.

reply to post by Honor93


i do believe the intent of the OP was to talk about our hypocritical support of a corporation that is in bed with a communist country. your conversation has seemed to go off on a tangent arguing whether or not a company should be entitled to keep their employees at poverty wages.

reply to post by 200Plus

i didn't assume, i asked.
and after another 25yrs or so, perhaps you'll have some equal life experience to draw from.

that's not surprising ... it's been that way all the years of our industrialization.

good for you, i started at age 12 with a carnival/benefit for Muscular Dystrophy.
(0 payroll)

exactly, unions are another topic all together.
however, regarding your jackhammer experience ... had you run one before getting the job or did you learn 'on the job' ??

a good friend was running his own concrete business at 15 and turning a 5 figure profit so i know it's possible. (no union involvement)

look, i am not saying parents should be paid for raising their children, however, when we are discussing "skills" worthy of such compensation, you have yet to offer any in comparison, that's my point.

or any that are of greater value to society as a whole and to me, that's and even bigger problem.

do you know about the teen who has developed a "cancer screening" software that is being heralded as "ground-breaking" ?? she's a neighbor and i'd like to understand why you're of the opinion that her parents aren't deserving or shouldn't be rewarded for their efforts with her ????

here's the story in case you're unfamiliar ... pick a source
huff post
fox
alt media/darkdaily
this is what i'm talking about ... mad skillz ... not just the 'employable' kind.

and she wasn't the only teen featured ... where there is such a group, there is hope

reply to post by conspiracy nut

perhaps then, could you explain how your directed comment about the payroll of cashiers was really meant ?

your conversation has seemed to go off on a tangent arguing whether or not a company should be entitled to keep their employees at poverty wages

as i said previously, i believe you have misinterpreted the conversation.

reply to post by conspiracy nut

i don't dispute this one bit ...

i do believe the intent of the OP was to talk about our hypocritical support of a corporation that is in bed with a communist country

however, how many corporations can you name that aren't ??

sniping about one is rather pointless when you look at the bigger picture, don't ya think ?

reply to post by Honor93


while i agree that a cashier should probably never equate to a 6 figure salary, i do feel that a corporation making multi-billions per year can afford to give their employees a livable wage and benefits. i feel that such practices of keeping americans at poverty level wages should be extremely frowned upon especially by a gigantic mega corporations that rakes in the kind of money that walmart makes. my opinion is that you offer more well paying jobs at home instead of shipping them off to slave labor countries it improves the quality of life for all americans not just the fat cats. that is my opinion on that matter.

why i addressed your conversation is because i feel that you guys have strayed from the OPs point of our anti-communist country being in bed with corporations that do the majority of their business with communists therefore screwing the american worker in the process.

reply to post by conspiracy nut

and your opinion, as stated, is certainly where we would agree in general terms.

so, where and how do you figure this is an anti-communist country ?
do you realize how many card carrying communists are leading this country currently ?

perhaps you should start by understanding the first American corporation ?
who founded it and why.

And yet another short-sighted thread where everybody jumps in to lay blame on the first thing in their line of sight rather than stepping back and looking at the big picture in order to see the true root of the problem...



This thread is an example of what's wrong with North America.... the majority of people lacking any understanding of basic economics.

Walmart is a "small town killer" ?!

No.

Greedy consumerism is the small town killer - aka we the consumers. Yeah, that's right WE are the "small town killers". Walmart took advantage of this consumer demand and made a friggin' fortune off of it - everybody wanting more more more for cheap cheap cheap.

Proof ? You stopped shopping at the mom and pop stores when Walmart moved into the neighbourhood, didn't you ?

But it doesn't stop there folks... No, it goes much deeper and farther back than that.

We allowed the doing away with strict banking regulations (such as the Glass Steagall Act) thereby removing the leash and collar on the banksters and permitting them to run amok however way they choose with our funds in their hands anywhere in the world in whatever way they want.

Banksters went global thereby allowing corporations to follow suit by giving them an avenue to handle their financial affairs outside of the country, which ultimately took away our much needed tax revenues.

And then just to add the icing on the cake, we implement this thing called NAFTA... now giving corporations free reign to do business and/or completely move elsewhere (without penalty) to take full advantage of the slave labour market both directly and indirectly. Which ultimately killed our manufacturing industry and all other related industries that depended on those manufacturing industries, which ultimately killed the job industry.

Just a couple of examples... The list goes on and on down the line folks.

Blaming Walmart and your friendly local neighbourhood multi-billionaire alcoholic as the root of your woes is not only short-sighted, it's downright naively ignorant of the facts.

Time to wake up and smell the reality of globalization.

Give yourselves all a nice big pat on the back because we allowed it to happen.

Originally posted by Honor93

it does take 'skill' to operate a computer/cash drawer.
[why else do you think clerks can't make change on their own ?]
it does take 'skill' to operate a library.
it does take 'special skills' to care for animals.
and it certainly takes 'skill' to raise a family.

When a person walks in the door with little skill in anything and maybe a high school degree, or not and a company teaches them a skill and within a week they are an expert in that skill, then I would say that skill is worth minimum wage or close to it.

while none of the 'skilled' labor mentioned above is ever compensated at their true value to society ... i'm afraid you and i will never see eye to eye on such a point.

I am missing your point...my wife doesn't have an income...and if I did pay her I couldn't afford her...with that said I am talking about what job would be worth minimum wage. I am not slamming skills, nor am I slamming people who don't make money but play a vital role, like my wife, so don't get all high and mightly on me now....


People are complaining that Wal-Mart is screwing their employees over because they do not pay shelf stockers 25 bucks an hour, and that is just a totally naive thought.....

so here's a question, since WalMart doesn't produce anything, why shouldn't they be required to provide a certain percentage of "profit" directly back to the community that supports it ??
(and not in the form of 'taxes' either)

So this is your answer to what jobs now only pay 10 to 15 that once were 25 to 50? It your statement I just want some examples.

So I have a small store and I pay you 8 bucks an hour to stock the shelves each night. Each week I pay you 320 buck....Now I sit in the store being the store owner for 12 hours a day and if I have a good week you get 320 bucks and let's say I make 2000, GREAT!, but if I have a really really bad week then I'm paying you 320 bucks out of my life savings... You get paid what you work no risk... So tell me again why should I pay you profit too? Are you going to work for free when I don't have profit? I don't think so...

oh and btw, i'd be careful just how much 'skill' you associate with number crunching cause as most already know, the 'skill' to which you refer involves a whole bunch of 'cooking' too

I truly hope you are just doing this for argument sake and not really because you cannot comprehend my point...

reply to post by Xtrozero

i have never met any employee that has -0- skill set.
every student or dope dealer has skill sets, even if they've never touched a computer screen or a cash register

what you are insinuating is that specific skill sets are more compensable than others and when you compare a rocket scientist to a brain surgeon, i would agree.

however, equating cashiers to accountants is a poor attempt to muddle the crux of the subject.
one which really only serves the path of ignorance or you'd understand why many more accountants go to jail or commit suicide than cashiers.
or are you suggesting that it is their expertise and 'professionalism' that drove them over the edge of sanity ?

knowledge and skills are seldom the same thing.
which happens to be the separation i am talking about.
most skills are natural and subsequently enhanced with additional knowledge.
some skills are acquired through knowledge and practice.

neither nature or nurture has cornered the market on skills ... see previous post for example.

Ms Walton does not have either the skills or knowledge to operate WalMart or she'd be doing it ... however, neither of the above is motivation to improve herself or an excuse to be a killer, is it?

so, how does skill or knowledge or money for that matter, make a 'better person, a better professional or even a better participant in society' ??
especially one who is worthy of said compensation ?

I am missing your point

that's ok, that's why we are engaged in a conversation
perhaps i am missing yours because this makes me say ... wait just a minute ??
are you reading what i am ?

you say ... (re: wife) "if I did pay her I couldn't afford her" ... well, that leads me to think you find her efforts "priceless" (which is a good thing, don't mistake what i'm asking - and kudos to your wife for creating such an impression )

and then, in the same breath, you state ... "I am talking about what job would be worth minimum wage." ... and there i have to say "HUH?"

perhaps a good question would be - if you lost your wife tomorrow (heaven forbid), how much would you be willing to pay for 'someone' to perform her duties that keep your life flowing along ?
how and why does her worth suddenly translate to "minimum wage" or less (as is the case with most domestics) ???

see, this is where i fail to follow the reasoning.
in one breath, (she) her efforts, though unskilled, are priceless and in the same breath, minus her presence, those same unskilled skills become "slave wage eligible" ... care to discuss how that's even possible, let alone acceptable ?

yes, perceptions matter.
and yes, skills matter.
however, the perception of those skills is what is driving the $$$$ financial windfall or loss and that my friend, is the biggest 'conspiracy' of all.

ppl should be complaining but you are overlooking the primary complaint ... it's about work conditions/benefits and under-handed tactics, not just dollar figures.

i don't believe cashiers/stockers should make $25hr either but the point here is even IF they did, Walmart would reduce their hours to 4hr shifts, 3 days per week which is STILL not a living wage, get it ?

it's a different picture when $25hr for 40 hours is taken home vs $25/hr for 12hrs minus taxes.

in WalMart's view, they are 'creating jobs' because it will take 10 employees to complete the tasks 2 could perform with full time hours, whereas, it then becomes accepted that WalMart is 'helping society' by enabling families to have 'more time together', all the while ignoring the basic math that proves no family (3 member or larger) can sustain on less than $200wk income, even though it is being paid at the rate of $25 per hour.

yes, it is basic math and i passed a long time ago
dang, runnning out of room, let me stop here and continue next post ...

reply to post by Xtrozero

continued from previous post ...

perhaps, what you and others think goes un-noticed is this ...

each of those 10 employees at $25 for a 12hr work-week costs less to the company as a whole.
in taxes, in employee benefits and worker comp insurance, not to mention all the windfall from tax incentives they receive for their hiring practices ... so, for the corp it is win-win-win ... for the employee, it is lose, lose, lose and the worst part is that half the population actually still think they have a 'choice' in the matter.
now that's sad.

no, this conversation is not for the sake of argument, i am completely serious.
and, i do comprehend your point i just don't accept or agree with it.

again, please keep in mind that for the most part, we are not talking about comparing skills or compensation ... we are discussing bad business practices engaged by most large corporations throughout the country.

and for those who are otherwise focused, yes that includes engaging in business in countries with employment practices we wouldn't accept in America.

an afterthought --> even though i realize the WalMart business model isn't about to change anytime soon, they could (if not willingly) be forced to recompensate the State/Fed for each $$ paid to benefit the families of employees who are 'aid' qualifiable.
that alone could go a long way toward resolving the 'living wage' argument.

reply to post by Honor93


its that type of shady business practice that is going to turn 2/3rds of this country into detroit. its gonna be like pre french revolution france with the corporations telling us to eat cake!

reply to post by conspiracy nut

with nearly 3 generations aware of the situation, yet, choosing to do nothing about correcting/changing it ... i have my doubts and honestly fear you may be right.

however, when the next generation shows us up, as they have over and over again ... the hope for a brighter future remains.

i'd like to see WalMart restricted to their region of production.
after all, they are consumers, not producers.

i'd really like to see the original plan put back into effect, American made at low/low prices.
but alas, we all have our fantasies, don't we ?

ETA -- one other thing ppl need to remember or start exercising or whatever.
goods made in China can be bought online, all day, every day ... we don't need middle-men ... any of them known as BigBox retailers.

Amazing how walmart gets targetted. Name me any major chain of retailors that don't have chinese products. The US manufacturers outsourced the work or outright moved out.
As an earlier poster pointed out, WalMart pays more than minimum wages in Washingtion St. where I also live. Then, by that logic, Washington St. is worse than Wally's world.(One of the highest minimum wages in the country).
So, by your logic,every state gov't, the federal gov't, every major retailor, the manufacturors that moved out or outsourced is to blame, not WalMart.
The real "lie" in all this is the concept of "fair" of "equality". GARBAGE. there are many people more intelligent, better motivated, more productive than me. (Luckier can't be discounted either) They merit a bigger piece of the pie.
Supply and demand, while sometimes is slow, will correct the so-called in-equities.
Internet service, direct outlet service is already impacting the Walmarts of the world by cutting out the middleman/retail stores. Chains have gone under and continue to do so.

In the day, a couple would marry, live in a small apartment, both working and saving their money until they could afford a home, papa now promoted/making a better wage allowing mama to stay home and start a family.

It worked!

Hard work created the "middle-class" . Sure it's tougher now. Way more competition, competing companies, bigger labor pool, international competition. "Supply" has surpassed "demand".

Now the hue and cry is "I can't support a family on minimum wage". Tough tarpaper, turkey. You screwed up. Not our fault. Next lifetime, keep your pistol in it's holster...

Now it's the "system" that's at fault. The evil corporations/gov't.(same difference).

Teach your kids that no matter what system, it's how hard you strive that makes the difference. How wisely you choose your career path. Proper, complete education and training.

In a free society it your choice, wise or otherwise, how and where your future lies. not the gov't's.

Stop blaming everyone else. You made your bed, live in it.

reply to post by nwtrucker


you make some good points here, most of the other corporations are doing the same getting goods from china etc etc the negative thing i see out of all this is that the corporations are trying their hardest to keep their overhead as low as possible and the profit margins as high as possible that they are completely leaving the americans to suffer through poverty and low paying jobs even though they are making record breaking profits all the while we are in a terrible economy. which brings us back to the OP'S original point that those corporations would never have such low overhead and high profits if they werent dealing w a communist slave labor force! capitalisms greed has gotten so out of control that we have turned a blind eye to the fact that we are in bed with communists all just to get our toys at bargain prices. tell me wht good will it be to get goods so cheap when half of our countrymen are out of work and half of our country looks like detroit?

so you have worked hard all your life, went to school etc etc, you might be doing well in life in a nice home on a hill, meanwhile the rest of america is living in poverty below you with no available jobs/ work to be able to feed their families, they live at the bottom of the hill in the ghetto, well guess what that is gonna create? more crime. but who cares as long as you are living in your nice home and are able to get your toys at bargain prices.

i dont think more schooling is going to help, not every single citizen is meant for college. there are not enough high paying college level educated jobs for every single last american citizen. what do we tell them? we tell them to eat cake, thats what we tell them.

reply to post by conspiracy nut


I agree to an extent. There are times when any system, in this case Capitalism, can get a bit out of hand. My solution to this economic crisis is the immediate withdrawl from the W.T.O., an immediate tariff on imported manufactured goods, increasing every six months to say about 30%.

This forces either a return of departed manufacturing or the start of new, updated manufacturing companies in the U.S..

I'd exempt Mexico and Canada from this tariff as the economic connection has been extant much longer than the current mess. They are also, the two biggest suppliers of crude to the U.S. as well.

This would bring US popularity to a new low, world-wide, but I see no other alternative.

Even this solution, group-wise, doesn't correct the "I want it now" mentality of too many. They'd rather bleet about the system rather than work on improving the qualifications/value of their services.

As bad as it may be, there's still a bunch of people doing fairly well and I don't see penalizing them with higher taxes to appease the complainers of how hard it all is.

There's two levels here, the indiviual and the group/nation. Both need to get of off their butts and come up with solutions to their problems. I for one will never depend on the Gov't to solve my problems.

Originally posted by Honor93

i have never met any employee that has -0- skill set.
every student or dope dealer has skill sets, even if they've never touched a computer screen or a cash register

It is not skill sets of the person, but skill sets to do the job... 18 yearold fresh out of highschool stocking shelves...8 or 9 bucks an hour...a phd chemist stocking shelves right next to him...8 or 9 bucks an hour...

what you are insinuating is that specific skill sets are more compensable than others and when you compare a rocket scientist to a brain surgeon, i would agree.

Skill to stock a shelf compared to let's say a dental assistant...not much difference?

most skills are natural and subsequently enhanced with additional knowledge.
some skills are acquired through knowledge and practice.

Skill is based on experience and practice. I agree knowledge is different, but also needed.

Neither nature or nurture has cornered the market on skills ... see previous post for example.

I think we are talking about different skills, I'm not talking natural skills, but learned skills...Take two lawyers one fresh out of college and the other practicing for 20 years...with all things equal, but of how long they been a lawyer which one has more skill? Learned skill?

Call it skill, ability or whatever...every job out there needs a degree of knowledge and skill to do it..even shelf stocking at Wal-Mart. Those jobs that take a week to master by someone fresh out of high school will be a low paying job. The reason is it is easy to fill since it needs little or no requirements, but simple localized training. This is why a pilot makes more than a shelf stocker...

Ms Walton does not have either the skills or knowledge to operate WalMart or she'd be doing it ... however, neither of the above is motivation to improve herself or an excuse to be a killer, is it?

lol no clue to how you are fitting all this into the discussion? She most likely doesn't even have the ability to stock selves, I'm missing your point...SHE WAS BORN WITH STOCK IN HAND!! What does that have anything to do with the payment of a job?

so, how does skill or knowledge or money for that matter, make a 'better person, a better professional or even a better participant in society' ??
especially one who is worthy of said compensation ?

What? Who said "better" can you do the job or not...YES/NO

and then, in the same breath, you state ... "I am talking about what job would be worth minimum wage." ... and there i have to say "HUH?"

Ok...you cut my grass how much should I pay you? You clean tables at burger king how much should I pay you an hour? I'm missing your point so lets start small...

see, this is where i fail to follow the reasoning.
in one breath, (she) her efforts, though unskilled, are priceless and in the same breath, minus her presence, those same unskilled skills become "slave wage eligible" ... care to discuss how that's even possible, let alone acceptable ?

You are suggesting I think her work is minimum wage....

Put two kids in daycare... 2k per month
Hire a cook... 1.5k+ per month
Hire a livein house maid 2k per month
Hire a driver 2k per month
Hire an escort service 2k per month
Hire an accountant, mail person, dog grommer/walker etc

I'm sure there is a lot more I could add, but it doesn't look like her job would be minimum wage...does it look that way to you?

in WalMart's view, they are 'creating jobs' because it will take 10 employees to complete the tasks 2 could perform with full time hours,

I'm not defending Wal-Mart or any shady practices they employ...I'm saying some nutcase billionaire is a non-issue for us to worry about, AND that there are a lot of jobs that are worth close to minimum wage...