Why Atheists are Unrelenting

reply to post by jiggerj
Jiggerj, first an apology; too many Bombay and tonics will impair the ability to debate in a proper way. Now that that is said and done this is the point that I miserably failed at last night; sorry again! Let me make this clear from the start, your beliefs are yours and I respect that and will not even try to change it; it is yours and yours alone not for me to try and influence or force my beliefs on you or anyone else. I hate people who do that myself and tend to betray myself from time to time.
I think it comes done to “Faith” :
Noun
1. Complete trust or confidence in someone or something.
2. Strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.


Synonyms
belief - trust - confidence - credence - credit

There is NO PROOF therefore I can not defend it on the basis of fact or an objective opinion other than my own. I was raised a Methodist and in a very religious home. I dreaded Sundays when I was a child; alter boy, tithing, and confirmation, on and on. I searched many different faiths because I had many questions and the answers I was given did not add up. After my fathers death when I was 11 years old I lost my faith totally for many years. I cursed God and everything that had to do with religion; I was to say it gently a Mother’s worst nightmare. I graduated early at 17 yrs and joined the Army as Airborne Infantry and was given the opportunity to go to Ranger School which I did and successfully graduated and eventually became a sniper. Bear with me here please, I am wearing my heart on my sleeve so you can understand where I am coming from. This was during the Reagan years when the U.S. started engaging on foreign soil for the first time since Viet Nam. I was pulled from the field one mission by a call from the Red Cross saying my Grandfather was dying. After numerous military hops I arrived in Cincinnati, Ohio and my Mother picked me up for a rushed trip to the hospital to see him before he died.
What I did before I left the field is what restored my faith. I remembered when in classes in church the scriptures said where three or more of you gather I will be there. So……before I left, two dear friends and I prayed: I ask God to let me see my Grandfather one more time before he died. While on the way to the hospital my mother told me that he did not know my Grandmother or her or anyone in the family to brace me for what I was about to see. When I walked in his room his mouth was open and he was gasping for every breath until I said Grandpa I am here in tears. At that point he closed his mouth and his breathing became regular and he said: “Donnie what are you doing here?” I told him to come and see him and to promise him I would take care of my grandmother no matter what. He looked at me in my uniform and smiled and said you have finally become the man I knew you could be. We talked a little while and I went home at around 3 am. When I walked in the house the phone was ringing; it was the hospital and he had passed away. In that moment, I knew without proof, without any tangible evidence that God had answered my prayer. I believed again and since that day have never doubted my “Faith.” I am sorry to hear about your brother! I can not imagine losing mine; I am not eloquent enough to convey the proper feeling to you.
I look at it this way, even the disciples e.g. Thomas doubted Christ. Even the men that walked with him did not believe so it is not hard to understand in this time we live in people will question or call the bible a fairy tale; I did at one time myself. It is personnel choice each man and woman must make for themselves. I do not believe in “Structured” religion, my beliefs are mine and mine alone that I will NEVER try and force on anyone. There have been many time in my life that I thought today was the day! I was checking out….dirt bath 101! My faith; justified or not is what got me through it. I have done things I will forever/forgive regret in the name of country and service. However, I believe that it is forgiven because I have asked to be forgiven.
We all have our opinions and beliefs brother. I’ll respect yours but intern please don’t try and convince me I am wrong. We can agree to disagree on this point. There is no right or wrong that either of us can prove definitively. Life is like a ferris wheel ride; we never know ho is the next to get off! LOL! Either way, it has been nice talking with you and if your right then it is nothingness and if I am right then maybe we can hangout for a couple thousands years and debate further. Again, sorry for being brash last night. Take care and I won’t insult you with a blessing you don’t believe in.
LPOPranger

reply to post by MagnificentTongue

....so they might not know how badly they've been defeated.

Title of thread: Why Atheists are Unrelenting
I didn't even know this was a competition, and yet you think you've won it. Isn't that what kids do?

reply to post by jiggerj

As long as you're open-minded to new information and not unwilling to learn new things...

Are you?

Because from what I can tell, you've been bombarded with new information, good stuff, things worth pondering and thinking about, but here you are parroting another variant of precisely the same material.


"There is a principal which serves as a bar against all information and proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance. That principal is called - contempt, prior to investigation."
~ Herbert Spencer, Scientist.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by jiggerj

 

I respectfully disagree - vehemently. If we let the religious have their way, then our children will fall prey to dangerous ideals and superstitions. Hitchins said it best: Religion poisons EVERYTHING!

What about spirituality, then?

Isn't it amazing how so many words can have so many different meanings. For me, spirituality is being in utter awe of Mother Nature.

I could watch the awesome power of Niagara Falls for days without getting bored.

Sometimes in early mornings there is a mist that hangs low to the ground and it makes the woods look prehistoric, to the point where I half expect to see a dinosaur go romping by.

I have no fear of one lightning strike, but I must admit I get a bit concerned when persistent flashes and booms are close by while the heavy rain literally pummels the roof.

Aren't shooting stars wonderful!

Aren't babies beautiful and funny!

Don't you just love to watch kittens trying to catch a beam of light?

Isn't it great to stretch out on the lawn on a sunny day and just daydream?

Isn't it awesome when we get so caught up in a novel that the whole world seems to have gone away for a while?

I love it when the sheer beauty of some women leave me utterly speechless.

Herein lies my spirituality.

reply to post by LPOPranger

Jiggerj, first an apology;...
...tend to betray myself from time to time.

Getting tired now, so I'll read the rest of your post later. Just wanted to take a second to say it takes a mature person to apologize, and as for betraying yourself, isn't that what humans do? Catch ya later!

reply to post by Ollie769


I very much agree, the problem we have is we either tilt to one extreme, or another. With (modern) Christianity there are too many holes and like you it irks me to think that the current bible is supposed to be literal and the be-all-end-all.

And that tends to be the crux of the problem with most religious types, they take things literally or wash them over with an air of ambiguity that leaves no real middle ground where usually the equation comes to a balance.

I chose Islam for a few reasons, one was the chain of tradition, that has been unbroken for 1400 years and the many brilliant intellectual minds that have risen around it, like the late great Imam Ghazali (ra) who was a spiritual genius of his age and someone who to this day is admired by people from all walks of life (religious or not).

But I am trying to follow the teaching of my spiritual teachers and that is to walk the middle ground and it is my belief the next evolution of the spirit cannot take place until some kind of merger of ideas that takes place in the near or distance future - possibly what some call the 'Age of Aquarius'.

In my opinion what everyone is trying to workout and eventually understand one day (whether in this life or another) is that we need to completely let go of our egos and destroy our physical self before we can start to see the grand picture and realise that we are not the centre of this universe (however we maybe the centre of our universe).

Someone mentioned the problem with spirituality earlier, that problem is actually man made because in everything we do we manifest our ego. Until we can learn to let go of our ego, realise that the only veil that holds us back from the truth is our own self-serving-conciousness we will never truly comprehend the ALL and nothing or god for that matter (realising that god is unattainable no matter how much our egos wish it were so).

This is why I walked away from modern day Christianity...to be told you must believe that Jesus is a man on a cross who died for your sins but is a god at the same time and is the son of himself (an oxymoron right there) when I have looked into the depths of space and seen galaxies up galaxies present and gone making up the vastness of the universe.

We are merely space dust...

reply to post by jiggerj
You have some great points to spirituality! Standing on the south rim of the Grand Canyon makes me realize how I am a spec of dust,

After the first snowfall; it is like everything has been cleansed and is pure and peaceful.


I get a little nervous on my boat in a lighting storm! 1800 lbs of aluminum in the water; I have visions of fried chicken!

Shooting stars are awesome and I make a wish every time!

I have a 5 month old and she “MELTS” me with her smile! She is my greatest accomplishment! Oh how I just wish, I could read her mind at this age! But she seems to understand and agree when I call her peanut and how much Daddy loves you.

Not a cat guy! Kittens are cute but a baby Boxer pup running all over the house makes me smile!

Yes it is great to stretch out on the lawn! I use a hammock between two pin oak trees. Get’s really hot in N.C. and a good shade tree is worth it’s weight in gold.

Not much on novels; but I used to read a lot; now I just don’t have time.


Women!!!!!!!!!!!! Don’t get me started>>>>>been married 4 times! LOL!! That is my greatest weakness. Yes, some can leave you mesmerized. It is only after you right the checks for several years that you realize it was lust! LOL!!!

Your cool and I hear where you are coming from!

Originally posted by winofiend

Originally posted by backcase
reply to post by winofiend

 

Every man needs hope, otherwise we are hopeless. Hope in God is the elevation towards him, not a crutch, but a wing. The second wing happens to be faith.

Let me ask you this. Which human was it that first told you about god?

My parents, they said it was a bunch of crap, so don't pay attention to it. All my beliefs, new age basically, came from my own curiosity and experiences.

reply to post by old_god


But every step we take brings us a little closer to being more than space dust. We must work together as a species, but there's a lot of people who aren't fighting to be more. They are content with living in the shadow of a their own imagination. We will never realize our true potential if we're not willing to fight for it.

And in all actuality, science is swiftly becoming our god. They don't need religion to control us anymore. They have other ways. If this Jesus dude doesn't hurry up, he'll miss the jump on world domination. Science will take his scepter and his crown, scream "THIS - IS - SCIENCE!", and kick him out of his throne.

reply to post by jiggerj
No probem, take care brother! Rest well. I look forward to talking with you more; even though we don't agree. I think we could both make each other at least think about it a little more. Best regards!

reply to post by jiggerj


wth are you talking about, lol. You do realize you are grouping tons of people together that don't follow the same beliefs, just like people in the same religion can't agree on one sect(Mormon,snake handlers, protestant, catholic, ect). lol too funny and pretty ignorant to say the least. IM agnostic/atheist, as far as religion I don't believe in any of the religions on the planet as they were all created by man as a control scheme, but something made all this and I don't mean some man/woman in the sky either lol. Id say i am more agnostic than anything and I have never ever in my life said there should be no Santa, so just in one post I have disproved your whole concept of atheists and atheism. Sorry ^^

i dont act a certain way because a religion tells me to or because im scared to go to the "bad place" lol. i try to act nicely to others because thats how i would want to be treated. dont need religion for that ?

in fact I don't care what anyone follows so long as you keep it out my face and it doesn't hurt anyone physically. Enjoy your festivals, enjoy holidays, enjoy YOUR customs and enjoy your fairytale and enjoy what ever parades. As for me to tell anyone how , or what they should believe would be no better than half the religions shoving %^&* in my face ^^

I don't run up to people on the street shoving flowers, books, ribbons, buttons, religious artifacts, pamphlets in peoples faces screaming the end of the world is coming or how someone gods gonna save me when I see half the people in religions suffering lol. But religions do ^^, so really who is unrelenting?

I mean with sweeping arguments like this I guess everyone in the south belongs to k.k.k? hardly think so as I know many from the south that are complete opposite of anyone who would join kkk lol.

And as far as monsters under the bed, obviously you haven seen monsters inc. That should answer any kids questions about monsters under the bed ^^

the title should read "SOME atheists are unrelenting"

reply to post by LesMisanthrope


The reason atheists shout so loudly is to convince themselves, not others, to shake off their own religious indoctrinations.

The fact though they are so hung up on the personifications of primal and natural forces and is sorely missing the point however.

The sun is a god. The source of all life and light. This is evident yet it is not enough for you. You all want unicorns #ting rainbows or something.

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope

We should instead turn our back and walk away from this fruitless debate.

I respectfully disagree - vehemently. If we let the religious have their way, then our children will fall prey to dangerous ideals and superstitions. Hitchins said it best: Religion poisons EVERYTHING!

Yes people should be called on their hypocrisy and double-speak. It isn't religion's fault, it's humanity's fault. It doesn't matter what religion one is, whether theist or atheist, it's the dogmatic mentality and idealism that causes people to do crazy things. We should finally be honest about this fact.

Originally posted by Sublevel6
reply to post by LesMisanthrope

 

The reason atheists shout so loudly is to convince themselves, not others, to shake off their own religious indoctrinations.

The fact though they are so hung up on the personifications of primal and natural forces and is sorely missing the point however.

The sun is a god. The source of all life and light. This is evident yet it is not enough for you. You all want unicorns #ting rainbows or something.

We can put the title God on whatever we want, in fact that's what we already do. Nothing changes with whatever declaration we make. Call the sun a god call the universe a god. It's irrelevant and changes nothing. We should at first realize what we're actually guilty of before we place blame.

Theists, atheists and agnostics are no different. They're putting faith in an ideal and argue over it. Do I think one ideal is worse than another? Absolutely. But I'm not going to go pigeon-hole myself and label myself as if I'm a product of atheism. That's a moron's game.

reply to post by jiggerj

Awesome Post!
Cheers to that!

reply to post by Sublevel6


Not everyone 'shouts loudly', and to better understand my own belief, I sit quietly & listen. Something like this is where I am right about now...
When Dawkin's speaks, I listen, reminds me there is so much to understand and research...
When the Preacher man speaks, reminds me of primary school, remember sitting around the half circle listening to Mr. or Mrs. whomever tell the story...
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and as so far, Science and common sense have shown no evidence of ANY greater power.

Originally posted by backcase
reply to post by AfterInfinity

 

Our imperfection compared to God's perfection.

edit on 5-1-2013 by backcase because: (no reason given)

If God is perfect, then he is an asshole. I am tired of seeing suffering and having it explained away as part of his plan. Frankly, I don't want to be in that club even if it were real.

But it isn't. You yourself realize that, or you would actually converse on the topic instead of quoting scripture. Learn to think for yourself.

reply to post by CashStronomer Sometimes there is need to shout loudly. Stating the oblivious is the safe position; therefore when it does not happen you can say: “I told you so” and if it comes to pass then: “Well I warned you.” Even thought the later is not in your belief. Why does there have to be a right or wrong brother?
Can we not agree to disagree? No harm no foul, no name calling, and no shouting from the mountain top. I can respect your belief and you mine. At the end of the day it really does not matter because it is either eternity or nothingness. The older I get (The closer to death) I question many things, but I have to believe there is more than this. Go to school and learn, go back to school and learn some more. Get a job, pay taxes….stay in line follow that status quo. Teach you children well…make sure they do the same as you but make sure they do better.
I don’t buy into that; I think there has to be more than this; or at least I hope for that. Believe or not; God or no God, I think it is in your heart it is your essence that decides your fate. It is not for me to decide or even to venture to guess. I just believe in my heart that there must be something more than this existence. If I am wrong then I will never know and it will be nothingness/blackness and it will not matter. However, if I am right then at least I stand a chance at something more.
It is each person’s choice, free will whatever you call it. I sincerely hope that “ALL” have a revelation that is nothing close to what has been taught/preached and that will be an awesome day.

Take care and only the best wishes for you!

reply to post by LPOPranger

In the sense that yes, there has to be more, I am in full agreement. However, this is not to say anything of a God, Greater 'Being', or Greater 'Purpose'. Just, more. I do not feel the need to find a God, Reason, or Purpose. Just simply deal with fact that I AM. Make the most of THIS life I have while I am here, and if there should be simply SOMETHING beyond 'here', I feel it's just easier to sit and await the ride. Until that day comes, if it in fact does so, that we reach 'the next level', or whatever?, well then all we can do is wait and see what 'it' is. But for all intents and purposes, believing in something is a little (to me) pointless, having a curiosity is quite normal, sometimes I may even get that good gut feeling of something, but in the end, it is only that which you see that is actually there.
CHEERS

reply to post by LPOPranger


Why does it have to be "eternity or nothingness"? It is only what god said it will be or it will be nothing? Isn't it possible there is some kind of inbetween?

Stating that it must be eternity in heaven or nothingness seems pretty condescending and closed minded.