Why Atheists are Unrelenting

reply to post by jiggerj


"God exists"
"God doesn't exist"
"God might or might not exist"

This is what theism, atheism and agnosticism boil down to—faith in these propositions and whether they are true or not. We then toss these ideals into the ring and fight over them. It's laughable if you ask me.

The only thing that's different between a theist, an atheist and an agnostic is a word or two. Any dogma that comes from either camp is still purely religiously motivated.

God is still right there in each of those propositions as an idea and as the very subject in the sentence, an ideal. Not until you lose faith in ideals do you become truly godless. When we remove these ideals and stop bickering over them can we move this dead-end of a debate forward.

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by AwakeinNM
Atheists can't explain to me how my grandmother has communicated with me three times since she died, either. They can believe or disbelieve what they want for all I care, as long as they don't try to shove their nonbelief down everyone's throa... Oh yeah, they DO that , don't they?

I won't try to explain it, Awake. Three days after my brother died I was outside having a smoke when a cloud passed by. The front of this massive cloud was the PERFECT image of my brother's face. I mean, it was Perrrrfect!
Some want to automatically jump to supernatural explanations, while I have to ask, why just my brother? I've known lots of people that died and I didn't get a cloud from them. So, until I get another cloud face I HAVE to conclude that my brother's cloud face was just coincidence.

You say your grandmother communicated not once, but three times. Now, I don't know what you mean by communicated, but if she spoke to you in a way that could have been recorded, or if she slid things across a table (three times!) I would definitely believe it too.

One is tangible,and it showed up in a photograph as an answer to a question I asked of her as I was taking it. The most recent one was a lucid waking vision where she assured me that my mom's dog was with her. I did not know at the time that my mom's dog was being put down at that moment because she had cancer and there was nothing more they could do for her. My mom was very upset.

reply to post by LesMisanthrope

God is still right there in each of those propositions as an idea and as the very subject in the sentence, an ideal. Not until you lose faith in ideals do you become truly godless. When we remove these ideals and stop bickering over them can we move this dead-end of a debate forward.

Well, then...is it possible to be spiritual without a god? Spiritualism is a fancy word for connection, so it's not like you need a god to be spiritual with your fellow man and the nature around you, right? What's the necessity for a god? Just a source of authority? Someone to give you all the answers when you need them?

reply to post by AfterInfinity

Maybe some people truly can't be independent or think for themselves? Makes more and more sense to me by the day!
Personally, I feel 'God' is as important to humanity, as the bloody Queen is to us Canadians.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


Mind is as invisible as Spirit

There is no separation of the two. Only in word.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


It is in my opinion that yes one can be spiritual without a god. But I would bet our ideas of what constitutes spirituality is quite different.

reply to post by old_god

[spiritual]... are able to imagine and their imagination creates

Couldn't have said it better, OG.

reply to post by jiggerj


Hmm...very interesting topic.

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
reply to post by jiggerj

 

"God exists"
"God doesn't exist"
"God might or might not exist"

When we remove these ideals and stop bickering over them can we move this dead-end of a debate forward.

It is true that atheists can't prove that something doesn't exist. All we can do is point out how there is no evidence to back up the claim of the existence of a god. And, if this lack of evidence were made of physical stuff, there would be mountain of it. What I mean is, there is enough evidence to prove the existence of almost every mythical creature except a god.

Leprechauns: We know that there are Irishmen. We know there are really short Irishmen. We know that some Irishmen wear green clothing. We know that some Irishmen smoke a pipe. The evidence is there!

Unicorns: We know there are horses. We know there are horned creatures. We know there are winged creatures. The evidence is there!

Gods: There are no squirrel gods running around in forests and creating nuts out of thin air. No creatures that can float by an unknown force - a force that defies the known laws of physics. No creatures that weigh more than the surface tension of water, yet can still walk on it. No creatures that perch on windowsills to whisper 'I love you'. No creatures that can talk directly into one's mind.

There is literally no evidence whatsoever of gods.

reply to post by LesMisanthrope

It is in my opinion that yes one can be spiritual without a god. But I would bet our ideas of what constitutes spirituality is quite different.

I wouldn't be averse to hearing your opinion.

reply to post by jiggerj


Save yourself some time next time and just say "because they care about truth - not belief."

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
reply to post by jiggerj

 

"God exists"
"God doesn't exist"
"God might or might not exist"

When we remove these ideals and stop bickering over them can we move this dead-end of a debate forward.

It is true that atheists can't prove that something doesn't exist. All we can do is point out how there is no evidence to back up the claim of the existence of a god. And, if this lack of evidence were made of physical stuff, there would be mountain of it. What I mean is, there is enough evidence to prove the existence of almost every mythical creature except a god.

Leprechauns: We know that there are Irishmen. We know there are really short Irishmen. We know that some Irishmen wear green clothing. We know that some Irishmen smoke a pipe. The evidence is there!

Unicorns: We know there are horses. We know there are horned creatures. We know there are winged creatures. The evidence is there!

Gods: There are no squirrel gods running around in forests and creating nuts out of thin air. No creatures that can float by an unknown force - a force that defies the known laws of physics. No creatures that weigh more than the surface tension of water, yet can still walk on it. No creatures that perch on windowsills to whisper 'I love you'. No creatures that can talk directly into one's mind.

There is literally no evidence whatsoever of gods.

As Dawkins often states.. "While I cannot disprove god, I can prove the statistical probability of a god is so low that it isn't worth my time or effort."

reply to post by Sublevel6

Mind is as invisible as Spirit

There is no separation of the two. Only in word.

No separation of the two, only the division of the upper body from the lower body. Two halves that equal each other and form a whole, but are not synonymous. Each serves it's own purpose, but each purpose relies on the other to succeed. Remove a half, and the remaining half is crippled. It takes true spirit to survive such an encounter, but it takes true mind, and however much time you need, to find spirit.

Your mind must be nimble to understand the mysteries of the world we live in. It must be nimble enough, quiet enough, to observe the nuances of order and harmony that show in every design. Even disaster is beautiful in its own way. Disaster can bring out the worst, but it also brings out the best. In war time, you see politicians clashing for prominence, demonstrating the weakness of the human spirit. But then you see churches that help the homeless, agencies that aid the poor, families that appreciate each other, men and women joining in union or expecting a child, children that dance and laugh and love in spite of the fact the world is burning...and that's where you see it. You can see spirit in those things. You can see the love that brings two people together to enjoy a movie, or just have a coffee on a quiet Sunday afternoon. The sort of love that can't help but build special things, connections, bonds. If you think too much, you can miss it all.

I'll admit I think a lot. I have to think because I've never wanted to be a drone. And that's all I see anymore. And even as science tightens its grip on the world, the spark that is meant to ignite the world is slowly fading as people forget the true purpose of spirituality. Or maybe just what it means to me. Spirituality is harmony, the ability to learn no matter what is thrown at you. To take chaos and spin understanding and comprehension from it. To be able to see the light and dark in anything, and know that they are both necessary. To take happiness from what you do have, instead of languishing for what you don't. Take purpose from it, know that you can do it, and make it happen. And most of all, to respect all. Everything happens for a reason because you give it that reason, you choose what you take or give from that experience, so take care to exercise kindness, you know? That's my kind of spirituality. The gift that keeps on giving. A TRUE gift. You learn to appreciate life more, and you learn how to turn pain into healing. Isn't that was Jesus was all about? Positivity and productivity.

Science has cut down on thinking that way. Limiting resources, imposing restrictions, undermining miracles and quantifying everything we find beautiful and breakthtaking. And it doesn't stop there! Now it's making living creatures, recreating and engineering them. Science is becoming the new god. I've never known technology for being warm hearted. And you know what the military will want to do with a global intelligence networking system. Skynet, anyone?

This is all just to show I'm being fair here. Usually I'm railing against anything Christian, but I have always fully recognized the dangers of science and psychology. I don't mean to get too woo woo, but emotions do cause an electromagnetic response in the body, and if we were all emitting the same emotional frequencies...well, let's just say science has its uses. But at this point in time, everything is being used to curb spirituality and constrain it. Basically, I dearly hope for some kind of change. Otherwise, we're gonna wish 2012 DID happen.

Originally posted by HairlessApe
reply to post by jiggerj

 

Save yourself some time next time and just say "because they care about truth - not belief."

Slaps self on forehead. ALL THOSE WASTED WORDS!

Just to get the new readers up to speed, the arguments of the "Atheists" have been completely destroyed in this thread. You should go back and read what was written by both sides, and pay attention to the reliance on mockery and avoidance of philosophy and tempered debate by those in the "Atheist" camp.

Unfortunately, the demographics of this site are heavy on the preteen and sophomoric. So, one side, having not yet been to college, has a hard time coming up with educated arguments to refute what the non-Atheists have posted - even though they could ask an "educated Atheist" to point them in the right direction - or at least to the next logical avenue of attack (which would also fail, obviously). Right now they are simply in a state of denial, or their current level of education may not really allow for complex analytical thought....so they might not know how badly they've been defeated.

So, we're currently just waiting for an educated retort or for the expected eventual acquiescense from the "Atheists".

Until we receive a well thought-out, non-emotionally charged response, I will post this on every page, hoping it will encourage some of you to show your hand, if you have one. Some of you seem to think you have everything figured out and that your arguments are solid, when I've seen them die over and over again just in this thread. Others seem to be intelligent enough to have figured out that their Atheist worldview can't survive in a logic fight, but instead of admitting defeat, they hold their cards even closer to their chests, throw a few more chips in the middle, and bluff their faces off. If you guys have logical responses - ones in which I would see that I am wrong - then I need to hear them. I hate being wrong. If I am wrong, please correct me, and please don't play juvenile games, as has been your tendency.

If you would like to play fair (within the constraints of logic), you can go back to pg 5 and come up with an argument against what I originally posted...or anything on the next 4 pages or so. Until intelligent arguments are made to challenge what I have written, it should be assumed by all readers that the winners of this debate (if you can call a bunch of hormonal preteens engaging in wordplay against educated truthseekers a debate) are the non-Atheists.

reply to post by MagnificentTongue


I'll take the challenge. What questions do you have for the atheists? I am not atheist myself, but I certainly am not Christian. I could call myself Deist, but even that isn't quite right. I believe in a natural law of order through chaos, to keep it simple. It's a dance between chaos and order, using entropy to paint ever-brighter canvases of potential. It isn't conscious, but it could be called a higher power. It's more sophisticated than the average human being. It does act as storage for every experience in existence, so I guess maybe a consciousness could have formed. Considering the nature of unity and harmony, however, I doubt there would be much going on in there. It enables every other law of nature that we are able to observe, so that's where the true omnipotence comes into play. The grand daddy of all observed laws of reality. I could go further, but I don't believe that's necessary quite yet.

Anyway, that's my spiritual application profile. Do I qualify for your interrogation?

reply to post by AfterInfinity


LOL. No. You don't qualify. If you're educated enough to call yourself agnostic/deist/anything-other-than-atheist, then you're not one of the ones I'm waiting for a response from. Thanks though.

reply to post by jiggerj

It is true that atheists can't prove that something doesn't exist. All we can do is point out how there is no evidence to back up the claim of the existence of a god. And, if this lack of evidence were made of physical stuff, there would be mountain of it. What I mean is, there is enough evidence to prove the existence of almost every mythical creature except a god.

Leprechauns: We know that there are Irishmen. We know there are really short Irishmen. We know that some Irishmen wear green clothing. We know that some Irishmen smoke a pipe. The evidence is there!

Unicorns: We know there are horses. We know there are horned creatures. We know there are winged creatures. The evidence is there!

Gods: There are no squirrel gods running around in forests and creating nuts out of thin air. No creatures that can float by an unknown force - a force that defies the known laws of physics. No creatures that weigh more than the surface tension of water, yet can still walk on it. No creatures that perch on windowsills to whisper 'I love you'. No creatures that can talk directly into one's mind.

There is literally no evidence whatsoever of gods.

Absolutely there are no gods. But what does the Christian pray to? One cannot pray to nothing. He prays to an ideal—his own desire that God exists. The atheist is no different insofar that he dogmatically expresses and pushes his ideal on others. Ideals are the only Gods here.

I've seen humanist billboards, Darwin 'Jesus fishes,' atheist t-shirts, and no shortage of advocates preaching atheism. I mean this dogmatism is the reason I left religion in the first place; why do I see it among the atheists? We should instead turn our back and walk away from this fruitless debate.

Let the religions duke it out lest we become religious ourselves. We should show through example that no God, no ideal is needed to live well.

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope

We should instead turn our back and walk away from this fruitless debate.

I respectfully disagree - vehemently. If we let the religious have their way, then our children will fall prey to dangerous ideals and superstitions. Hitchins said it best: Religion poisons EVERYTHING!

reply to post by jiggerj

I respectfully disagree - vehemently. If we let the religious have their way, then our children will fall prey to dangerous ideals and superstitions. Hitchins said it best: Religion poisons EVERYTHING!

What about spirituality, then?