Ton of Gun Control Bills hit the house

Originally posted by bekod
reply to post by macman

 

Not all FFL dealers are on the up and up got the Cash no paper trail got the bucks you to can own a m60 full auto, your just a joe who uses a lot of 308, one in ten are like this, one day sales some are the first to be some are the last 30 cal and 308 are the big give a ways buy 2 mags get one free, also sell AR15 conversion kits, so i'v been told. Are thees sales done in side or in the parking lot? the last one i went too, seen with my own eyes NAVY 82a1 50 full auto sold no paper work just cash, done on the inside was look at a BAR my self converted to NATO did not get it

A full auto M-60 under the counter, really? LOL. A full auto Barrett 82A1? You do realize that those are not even manufactured in full auto, right? 1 in 10 dealers is dirty? Again, LOL. You realize that an FFL has to document every gun that comes in and out in his bound book and that the ATF does annual inspections right?

Originally posted by Cosmic911
reply to post by Cosmic911

 

Here's a question for you guys...what does the law say, if anything, about private sales and who you can or want sell to? What happens if you sell a firearm to a felon, since you don't have access to NCIS to perform a background check?

I think you just answered my question...thx!

edit on 4-1-2013 by Cosmic911 because: (no reason given)

I bought a Kimber super carry last month from a Marine. Private, FTF sale. He took a photocopy of my DL and CCW as part of a bill of sale with my signature on it.

reply to post by thisguyrighthere


Ok...makes sense. When I sold a Glock to a friend he of course had a valid permit, it was recorded at the pistol permit office and the firearm was added by the clerk to his license. Without involving the county it would have been an illegal sale.

reply to post by NavyDoc


Ok, thanks for the post. In my county all pistols are physically recorded on the back of our permits. Also recorded in our files. So even our private sales need to be processed through the issuing office, accompanied by the modest fee of 3 bucks lol

Originally posted by Cosmic911
reply to post by thisguyrighthere

 

Ok...makes sense. When I sold a Glock to a friend he of course had a valid permit, it was recorded at the pistol permit office and the firearm was added by the clerk to his license. Without involving the county it would have been an illegal sale.

Some states mandate a handgun puchase permit even for a FTF sale. In my state, a valid CCW permit counts as a handgun purchase permit, which is why I showed the seller mine so he could be satisfied that I was a legal purchaser. Handguns are not registered in our state, so the country needs not know. There is a papertrail on my pistol, but that was more for the seller's peace of mind than any legal requirement. The law states that all I had to do was show him my CCW or purchase permit to be legal, not give him a copy.

FFL dealres keep an A and D log that tracks serial numbers date Aquired and date disposed. Also with the purchasers info for when the ATF does its audit. Every buyer has to fill out a 4473 even if they have a permit to carry. Non CCW holders have to be called into the NICS office and get a NTN number. Gun Show or not all fire arms are traced. You have to show where the firearm went with out paper work you are fined and can face federal charges.

reply to post by NavyDoc
Not in full auto ? think again class 3FFL says you can www.guns.com... are far as the Navy well that was what it was sold as www.fullautofirearms.com... should point out not affiliated with nor have dealings with the links, posted just for info want too see a out of box full auto www.youtube.com...

reply to post by Preacher76

Like I have posted previously the House and Senate needs a Constitutional Committee with a big rubber stamp marked UNCONSTITUTIONAL and a red ink pad to stamp most of these bills or resolutions before they come up for a vote.

Is gun a private property?I can see where this is going, guns won't be a private property, instead it will be a licensed material.

At some point, there will be a bill just stating this - You just have a license to use the said gun, or transfer the license (some of the new bill doesn't allow even this). It is a privilege rather than a right. They can take away this license anytime. The only way they can disarm the population is to make it as a licensed property.

It worked in Music/Movie/Software industry. When you buy a CD, you don't own music in it, it is just a license to to play the said songs. If you want to play same song in another format(mp3), buy the license again. You can't share the licensed mp3 with your friend or family or someone online. Same thing with Windows license, you don't own the software, Microsoft give you a license to use it.

At some point, gun will fall under this category I guess. Thats my guess, I could be wrong.

Originally posted by DaTroof

Originally posted by NavyDoc

Originally posted by DaTroof

Originally posted by Preacher76

HR141 - Require Background Checks on All Sales at a Gun Show thomas.loc.gov...:H.R.141:

This one is a must. Gun shows are where a vast majority of illegal guns come from.

No, this one is a deceptive bait and switch. Every sale at a gun show has to follow the same rules of a gun sale everywhere else. If you buy from a dealer or a store you have to have a federal NCIS check. In many states, private sales also require NCIS check as well. In many states private sales or transfers do not require an NCIS check. What they are trying to do is eliminate any and all private transfers without papers so that they can try to capture all of the unregistered guns out there.

Sorry friend, I know exactly how gun shows work.

abcnews.go.com...

My friend's father used to deal arms at gun shows. He ID'd all his clients, but many dealers do not.

Even so, do you have to be at a gun show to sell/purchase a weapon?

Try a local newspaper. Go online. You will find ads in the personals. People sell their own firearms every day, doing private sales, with no dealer or paperwork involved.

reply to post by bekod


full auto 82A1 wow sure you ment semi right? full auto would make it an anti matirial weapon no longer a sniper rifle and NATO rules apply. Not to mention the NFA laws on the full auto m60 and BAR. which the 86 ban covers why these would land them in federal prison to sell with out paper work and why owning one with out an NFA tax stamp would land you in federal jail. as far as the full Auto 82A1 you should have at least held it to say you held a mythical beast that does not exist

reply to post by VimanaExplorer

Guns are private property (unless they say that only "registered militias" can have them and they have to be kept at their armories). Cars and boats are private property but they, too, are registered (altho the Constitution does not say that the ownership of modes of transportation can be "infringed" even tho the Constitution does give us the right to travel freely). They cant come for the cars....but wait I recall seeing an Executive Order that under Martial Law could be construed to take any vehicle they want (EO 10999).

The risk is that firearms are registered and taxed (could be under the National Firearms Act if amended to include semi autos or as "property" like cars and boats, etc and taxed at the local level).

Originally posted by bekod
reply to post by NavyDoc

 

Not in full auto ? think again class 3FFL says you can www.guns.com... are far as the Navy well that was what it was sold as www.fullautofirearms.com... should point out not affiliated with nor have dealings with the links, posted just for info want too see a out of box full auto www.youtube.com...

edit on 4-1-2013 by bekod because: line editing

Yes, LOL full auto. There is an NFA registry of transferrable full auto firearms. Not only is it a felony to transfer a Class III firearm without a background check, not just any FFL can deal in them and every single FA in the registry is documented and tracked by the BATFE and you have to not only get a BATFE signoff, but you have to have a permission letter from your local CLEO and if you sold it "for cash out the back" you would be in jail as soon as the ATF inspected and found one missing.

You realize that the website you linked is about selling and buying "transferrable" class III firearms and parts. "Transferrable" means that it is in the BATF registry. The registry was closed in 1986. The last time I saw a transferrable M-60, it was going for $45k dollars. There is no way in hell anyone would sell one "off the books" because not only would you go to jail after the next inspection, but you would lose a hell of an investment.

I know that they may have advertised an M82A1 on a site called "fullauto." But this rifle never has nor ever will be full auto. I know, I have one. Here is a link that explains it:en.wikipedia.org... It is semi-automatic, very heavy, and expensive. New, they run about 10K. I bought mine used from another collector. They are not restricted any differently than any other semi-auto rifle. I've got a 99-1 too, a bolt action variant.

So you are saying that a dealer ordered a M82A1 from the distributer and then sold it "out of the side" without a 4473? You do realize that when the background check does not show in his bound book, he goes to jail right? You do ralize that ATF tracks sales to dealers as well as sales from dealers, right?

Is it just me or are the disinfo folks coming out of the woodworks for this thread? I've been going to gun shows since I was a kid [thirty some years going] never have I seen a sale with out a back ground check. They have state troopers wandering around the floor at the Albany one. Now internet sales there is a problem. Just look at what happened with the second man in the Phoenix ATF office. link

A FN Five-Seven semi-automatic pistol, a high powered handgun originally restricted to military and law enforcement customers, was recovered by Mexican police at the scene of a Nov. 23 shootout between the Sinaloa Cartel and the Mexican military. Records show the gun was purchased in January 2010 by George Gillett, the former No. 2 in the ATF office in Phoenix. Gillett now works at ATF headquarters in Washington as a liaison to the federal Bureau of Prisons. Read more: www.foxnews.com...

But then again you need to know the system to play it.

reply to post by NavyDoc
had no idea how it woks as far as the sales or the dealers go, do know you have to have class 3 to own a full auto, that is if you can still get one, love to have a BAR, or Thompson 45. All i can say is i had seen what i had seen, this was back in 85 BTW when the Barret's were first coming out the term full auto was to mean full auto slide like a M1911 browning we all know this is not a full auto but it does have a full auto slide action, as afar as the M60 could have been a mg42 they do look the same, 85 was a long time

Originally posted by Cosmic911
I think you guys are arguing and you're both right and wrong...Im sure some FFL dealers at gun shows don't always follow the rules. Now the loophole with private sales is tricky. In NY I can sell a long gun or a pistol as a private sale without any checks. There is no way to know if you're selling to a felon or someone with mental illness.

No, as FFLs are checked often. A 10 year prison stint is not worth it for 99.99999999% of FFL holders.
The ones that do get in trouble, are dealing with import/export deals and violate the law or are dealing in Class 3 firearms.

There is no loophole, as NY has laws regarding the transactions of private sales.
There is a requirement of due diligence, and a sales receipt in most states.

reply to post by bekod


I have been around FFL and Class 3 holders for a very long time. I hear about all the stories and was involved with numerous investigations of dealers as well.

No, the whole cooking of books and shifting things here or there don't happen.
The BATF has become the IRS in the Firearm world. They do, have and will crawl up the butt of any FFL dealer.


No, FFL dealers, 99.999999% don't even mess around with that crap.

reply to post by Cosmic911


Due Diligence and Sales receipts.

No, as long as you follow the law you are fine.

Originally posted by bekod
reply to post by NavyDoc

 

had no idea how it woks as far as the sales or the dealers go, do know you have to have class 3 to own a full auto, that is if you can still get one, love to have a BAR, or Thompson 45. All i can say is i had seen what i had seen, this was back in 85 BTW when the Barret's were first coming out the term full auto was to mean full auto slide like a M1911 browning we all know this is not a full auto but it does have a full auto slide action, as afar as the M60 could have been a mg42 they do look the same, 85 was a long time

M60:


Mg-42:


Not sure what you mean by "full auto slide action" as that is not a technical specification. The M82A1 is a standard semi-auto:

The M82 is a short recoil semi-automatic firearm. When the gun is fired, the barrel initially recoils for a short distance (about 1 in/25 mm), being securely locked by the rotating bolt. After the short travel, a post on the bolt engaged in the curved cam track in the receiver turns the bolt to unlock it from the barrel. As soon as the bolt unlocks, the accelerator arm strikes it back, transferring part of the recoil energy of the barrel to the bolt to achieve reliable cycling. Then the barrel is stopped and the bolt continues back, to extract and eject a spent case

M1911 Browning is a pistol that is also a semi-automatic pistol, unless you ment to say M1919 browning that is a machine gun that fires from an open bolt.

I don't mean to give you a hard time, honestly I don't, but there is so much misinformation out there, used by anti-gun people who do not understand or know anything about this stuff, that I feel the need to keep the facts out there.

reply to post by bekod


You clearly have no clue as to what involves the transactions of class 3 firearms, what that license means or what even the Class 3 manufacture license means.

There have been 0, none, nada fully automatic firearms manufactured for sale to the public for some time now.

Those with them have acquired them in the following manner:
Apply for a tax stamp and purchase one made before the full auto ban.
Apply for a class 3 license, purchase new with the law stating you can't sell it.
Apply for a class 3 manufactures license with the above applied as well.
Apply for FFL and Class 3 license, purchase new, can't sell to public but to Govt Agencies.


That is it.