Simon Wiesenthal Center: Top 10 Anti-Semites, Israel-Haters for 2012

reply to post by ThinkingHuman

No, actually you are making no sense. "Gentile" is a group as you well know. And you conveniently left out another hate group, White Supremacists. People can hate not just one specific group but ALL OTHERS who are different.

So if a White Supremacist hates Muslims, is that "Anti-Gentilism?" Hatred of all those who are different already has a word: "xenophobia." Why do you feel the need to coin a new one? Is it agenda driven?

Maybe you like it better, or follow what I am saying more easily, if I call the racists not "Anti-Gentilists" but rather "Jewish Supremacists".

If you feel that a particular group of Jews consider themselves to be inherently superior to everyone else, "Jewish Supremacists" would be the appropriate term. Zionism is not Jewish Supremacism.

IMO, Barbara in the video is an example of a Jewish Supremacist. She expresses an opinion of Jews being superior to non-Jewish (gentile) Swedes by claiming that the Swedes depend on the Jews to save their society from "not surviving".

I have already shown your opinion to be so wrong as to be either ludicrous or inflammatory. Nowhere does she assert that Jews are in any way superior to anyone else. She merely states that Jews must take the lead, presumably because of their long history of assimilation. She does not say that the Swedes depend upon the Jews.

Even if you happen to disagree in her particular case, there may be other Jews in the past or future who are Jewish Supremacist. If they exhibit similar behavior as Anti-Semites, as you suggested earlier (hate speech is hate speech not matter who makes it), their behavior must be equally open to discussion, criticism and condemnation just as much as that of Anti-Semites.

There are always bigots and insecure people who wish to tear others down. The Jewish people are no exception. A Jewish Supremacist is just as stupid and insecure as a White Supremacist.

In today's environment this seems impossible because simply criticizing a Jewish person for expressing racist opinions is being attacked as Anti-Semitic. This prejudice has proven to be impossible to overcome, even 68 years after the end of the Holocaust. One step in finally overcoming it is to give a name to the phenomenon of a Jewish person expressing racist opinions, either Anti-Gentilism or Jewish Supremacism, and to define it (as you did) equivalently, though opposite, to Anti-Semitism.

Can you provide an example of a Jewish person expressing racist opinions? I have no doubt they are out there. Can you show how this person's views were defended by charges of Anti-Semitism against his or her detractors? Again, the racist Jew would probably make that accusation, but can you provide an example of that "defense" being seconded by someone else?

Incidentally, I cannot help but notice that you have once again hurled accusations without making a statement about where you yourself stand. Never mind; it is unnecessary. Your accusations make your opinions and beliefs painfully clear.

Originally posted by DJW001
reply to post by buster2010

 

Let's not forget about how the man that started modern day Zionism said one of the duties of Zionist was to spread antisemitism so it would drive Jews to Israel.

Source, please.

Will his diary do?




Here's a link to his wiki page. Theodor Herzl

Originally posted by buster2010

Originally posted by DJW001
reply to post by buster2010

 

Let's not forget about how the man that started modern day Zionism said one of the duties of Zionist was to spread antisemitism so it would drive Jews to Israel.

Source, please.

Will his diary do?

Here's a link to his wiki page. Theodor Herzl

So you can't find an actual quote from Theodor Herzl where he says "one of the duties of modern Zionism is to spread antisemitism so it would drive Jews to Israel," so you quote a section of his diary where he lays out a strategy to give Anti-Semites an incentive to assist Jewish migration. Pathetic.

Originally posted by DJW001

 

ANTI-SEMITISM IS PERFECTLY OKAY - by your definition.

Where did I say this and what definition are you using?

Of course the phrase "Anti-Semitic" applies to opinions, even when they are not expressed.

I have pointed out several times now that having an opinion is not illegal, and not immoral under ANY law. (If it were it would be impossible to enforce.)

Ergo, if you apply Anti-Semitism to opinions then (at least some kind of) Anti-Semitism is not illegal or immoral.

It is not complicated.

Zionism is not Jewish Supremacism.

only Zionists believe that the Jews are "chosen."

Thesed two sentences are contradictory to each other. If they believe they were chosen by God, they believe that they are superior.

You came close to acknowledging the things I asked you to, so I will also make your statements:

Just say: "I do not hate Israel. Israel has every right to exist and its citizens deserve to live peacefully and unmolested."

"I do not hate Israel. People in Israel, whether Israeli citizens or people from countries such as Turkey, deserve to live peacefully and unmolested." Does Israel have the right to exist? Who has granted that right? I think it is up to the people of that country, all its people. If there is a civil war then the country may practically not exist any longer.

make an unequivocal statement: "Although Israel displaced Arabs 70 years ago, I do not hate Israel."

"Although Israel displaced Arabs 70 years ago, I do not hate Israel." I do not have relatives who were killed or "displaced/deported". People who had parents or children killed may feel natural, understandable and healthy hate. This feeling would best be channelled into a process called sublimation (eg. establishing a process to help prevent future killing).

Just say it. "I do not hate Israel, despite all that it has done."

You really seem to like to hear it many times, so I will say it a third time: "I do not hate Israel, despite all that it has done." And also should not be given US tax money. And their lobbies, like those of any other foreign nation, should not be able to influence US politics.

Originally posted by buster2010

 

Let's not forget about how the man that started modern day Zionism said one of the duties of Zionist was to spread antisemitism so it would drive Jews to Israel.

Thanks for the quote from his diary. Do I understand correctly that he said
- he lost his court case on purpose,
- Jews had the power to put him into parliament
- he said Zionists purposely increase Anti-Semitism?

reply to post by ThinkingHuman

Thanks for the quote from his diary. Do I understand correctly that he said
- he lost his court case on purpose,

No, he did not.

- Jews had the power to put him into parliament

Yes, by voting for him as a bloc in parliamentary elections.

- he said Zionists purposely increase Anti-Semitism?

No, he did not say that at all. What he said was that Jews should sell their property to Anti-Semites so that Anti-Semites cannot claim that the Zionists leaving the country are taking their wealth with them. I cannot believe this is a reading comprehension issue. It is delusional thinking. You see things that are simply not there.

reply to post by ThinkingHuman

I have pointed out several times now that having an opinion is not illegal, and not immoral under ANY law. (If it were it would be impossible to enforce.)

Ergo, if you apply Anti-Semitism to opinions then (at least some kind of) Anti-Semitism is not illegal or immoral.

It is not complicated.

Where have I ever said that it is illegal to hold an opinion, or that it is desirable to make it so. Anti-Semitism is not illegal, but it can lead to immoral actions, as you yourself have pointed out.

Zionism is not Jewish Supremacism.
only Zionists believe that the Jews are "chosen."

Thesed two sentences are contradictory to each other. If they believe they were chosen by God, they believe that they are superior.

Not all Zionists believe the Jews were chosen by God. Many, if not most, are what you can call "Secular Zionists." They view Israel as a safeguard of cultural and even physical survival. Such Secular Zionists do not necessarily believe themselves to be superior. On the other hand, the belief that the Jewish people were literally chosen by God automatically makes one a Zionist, even if one holds Anti-Semitic opinions.

You came close to acknowledging the things I asked you to, so I will also make your statements:
Just say: "I do not hate Israel. Israel has every right to exist and its citizens deserve to live peacefully and unmolested."
"I do not hate Israel. People in Israel, whether Israeli citizens or people from countries such as Turkey, deserve to live peacefully and unmolested." Does Israel have the right to exist? Who has granted that right? I think it is up to the people of that country, all its people. If there is a civil war then the country may practically not exist any longer.

The right for Israel to exist was granted by the United Nations, and is guaranteed by recognition of every nation state on Earth but the following:

Bhutan, Brunei, Chad, Cuba, Djibouti, Guinea, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq (this may soon change), North Korea, Lebanon, Libya (this may be subject to change), Malaysia, Mali (again, possibly subject to change), Morocco (ditto), Niger, Oman, Pakistan, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Somalia (if that is, in fact, a nation state), Sudan, Syria (which would annex the Palestinian territories if it could), Tunisia (subject to change), United Arab Emirates, Yemen and we might as well pro-actively throw in Venezuela. With the exception of Cuba and, eventually Venezuela, these are all majority Muslim states. There are many majority Muslim states in Central Asia that do acknowledge Israel's right to exist.

"Although Israel displaced Arabs 70 years ago, I do not hate Israel." I do not have relatives who were killed or "displaced/deported". People who had parents or children killed may feel natural, understandable and healthy hate. This feeling would best be channelled into a process called sublimation (eg. establishing a process to help prevent future killing).

There is no such thing as "natural, understandable and especially healthy hate.

I will say it a third time: "I do not hate Israel, despite all that it has done." And also should not be given US tax money. And their lobbies, like those of any other foreign nation, should not be able to influence US politics.

And how do you feel about the military aid that the United States gives to Iraq, Pakistan, Somalia and Sudan, none of which recognize Israel's right to exist?

I think you'll find that Bhutan follows Mahayana Buddhism, not Islam. I was surprised to see it on your list. Why don't they acknowledge Israel's right to exist?

reply to post by AngryCymraeg

I think you'll find that Bhutan follows Mahayana Buddhism, not Islam. I was surprised to see it on your list. Why don't they acknowledge Israel's right to exist?

You are correct. Apparently, Bhutan only has diplomatic relations with 50 countries. Perhaps they will get around to Israel in time.

Originally posted by DJW001

 

No, he did not say that at all. What he said was that Jews should sell their property to Anti-Semites so that Anti-Semites cannot claim that the Zionists leaving the country are taking their wealth with them. I cannot believe this is a reading comprehension issue.

If true, they should GIVE their property away. By selling it, this enables them to take the wealth, the objects they would not be able to take on the boat.

Tell me, what is the meaning of "I find that the anti-Semites are fully within their rights."
and who he calls "respectable, accredited anti-Semites".

Everybody interested has by now read the diary themselves. Good job, Buster.

Originally posted by DJW001

 

You keep changing the meanings of the words you use. And/or using the wrong definition.

Ergo, if you apply Anti-Semitism to opinions then (at least some kind of) Anti-Semitism is not illegal or immoral.
It is not complicated.

Where have I ever said that it is illegal to hold an opinion, or that it is desirable to make it so. Anti-Semitism is not illegal, but it can lead to immoral actions, as you yourself have pointed out.

You call the opinion Anti-Semitic.

The opinion, not what it may lead to. Anti-Semitic opinions are NOT immoral. An Anti-Semite may simply be somebody with an opinion. Do you know ANYBODY who does not have an opinion?

only Zionists believe that the Jews are "chosen."

Not all Zionists believe the Jews were chosen by God. Many, if not most, are what you can call "Secular Zionists."

You keep changing your claims.

Such Secular Zionists do not necessarily believe themselves to be superior.

Since you also consider Barbara NOT to believe herself and Jews in general to be superior to Swedes, this means absolutely nothing. The qualifier makes the statement even more meaningless.

There is no such thing as "natural, understandable and especially healthy hate.

Get a grip, it's a feeling.

People are entitled to opinions and feelings. Feeling is feeling. Feeling is NOT mental disease. Different words, different meanings.

Exposed: Strategies of Zionists and others who try to distort the truth.

1) Create words such as Anti-Semite, Birther, Truther, Climate Denialist, Conspiracy Theorist, etc.
2) Instill hate against a group of people, by using those "artificial" words, as derogatory labels.
3) Repeat the word, and the insult that comes with it, so often that people get sick of just hearing it, and automatically accept it as true without fact checking.
4) Lie, distort and misquote in order to argue that there is something that really does not exist.
5) Claim that words mean something they don't, depending on what is convenient for the context. Avoid providing a definition that can nail down one specific meaning of the word.
6) Create hate and urgency by accusing people wholesale with inflammatory labels (like "Swedes are becoming increasingly Anti-Semitic")
7) Pretending that using inflammatory language means there is no need to provide real evidence.
8) The accuser pretending to be superior by judging, degrading, demonizing the people who disagree with an opinion, and trying to impose his/her remedy by using threats and fear-mongering.
9) Those who oppose the remedy auutomatically become labeled by the same inflammatory name-calling.
10) Pro-Semite or pro-government organizations (in fields such as Politics, Journalism, Science, History Textbook Publishers, Education) are identified and supported as mainstream, whereas others have their funding sources punished with economic measures (such as boycotts).
11) If you are a Politician, Journalist, Scientist, Historian, Educator, Filmmaker you will become a target of name-calling and public humiliation, you may be reprimanded for insubordination or even lose your job.
12) Use "agents" to express certain opinions in unreasonable or unacceptable ways in order to make it easier to discredit ALL undesired opinions in general.

reply to post by ThinkingHuman

You keep changing the meanings of the words you use. And/or using the wrong definition.

I can't help it if you do not know what words actually mean.

The opinion, not what it may lead to. Anti-Semitic opinions are NOT immoral. An Anti-Semite may simply be somebody with an opinion. Do you know ANYBODY who does not have an opinion?

Yes, everybody has an opinion. Do you like classical music? No? Fine. You are welcome to that opinion, but if it leads you to burn Symphony Hall down, it is an irrational hatred that has led you to an illegal and immoral act. Are you starting to get it now?

only Zionists believe that the Jews are "chosen."
Not all Zionists believe the Jews were chosen by God. Many, if not most, are what you can call "Secular Zionists."

You keep changing your claims.

Those are two different claims, and they are not mutually exclusive. Only children believe in Santa Claus, but not all children believe in Santa Claus. Get it?

Such Secular Zionists do not necessarily believe themselves to be superior.

Since you also consider Barbara NOT to believe herself and Jews in general to be superior to Swedes, this means absolutely nothing. The qualifier makes the statement even more meaningless.

First, you have never shown anything that indicates what Ms. Spectre actually believes concerning Swedes as a "race." As for the rest of your statement: it's completely illogical.

There is no such thing as "natural, understandable and especially healthy hate.

Get a grip, it's a feeling.

No, it's not. Anger is a feeling; hatred is a state of mind. An unhealthy state of mind.

People are entitled to opinions and feelings. Feeling is feeling. Feeling is NOT mental disease. Different words, different meanings.

If you honestly think that hatred is a natural feeling, you are in need of professional help. There is nothing more to say.

Exposed: Strategies of Zionists and others who try to distort the truth.

1) Create words such as Anti-Semite, Birther, Truther, Climate Denialist, Conspiracy Theorist, etc.

Zionist, Anti-Gentile....

2) Instill hate against a group of people, by using those "artificial" words, as derogatory labels.

As you have. Don't forget to diminish the status of people you hate by calling them "Barbara" instead of, say, "Dr. Spectre."

3) Repeat the word, and the insult that comes with it, so often that people get sick of just hearing it, and automatically accept it as true without fact checking.

As Anti-Semites do with the word "Zionist."

4) Lie, distort and misquote in order to argue that there is something that really does not exist.

Like claiming that educating non-Jews about Jewish culture is a death threat.

5) Claim that words mean something they don't, depending on what is convenient for the context. Avoid providing a definition that can nail down one specific meaning of the word.

As the OP has with "Anti-Zionism."

6) Create hate and urgency by accusing people wholesale with inflammatory labels (like "Swedes are becoming increasingly Anti-Semitic")

No-one said "Swedes are becoming increasingly Anti-Semitic." You are starting to believe your own lies.

7) Pretending that using inflammatory language means there is no need to provide real evidence.

See above.

8) The accuser pretending to be superior by judging, degrading, demonizing the people who disagree with an opinion, and trying to impose his/her remedy by using threats and fear-mongering.

As you are doing with this list.

9) Those who oppose the remedy auutomatically become labeled by the same inflammatory name-calling.

As you reflexively did with Barbara Lerner Spectre.

10) Pro-Semite or pro-government organizations (in fields such as Politics, Journalism, Science, History Textbook Publishers, Education) are identified and supported as mainstream, whereas others have their funding sources punished with economic measures (such as boycotts).

Whereas Anti-Semites boycott Jewish and Israeli products.

11) If you are a Politician, Journalist, Scientist, Historian, Educator, Filmmaker you will become a target of name-calling and public humiliation, you may be reprimanded for insubordination or even lose your job.

Example, please.

12) Use "agents" to express certain opinions in unreasonable or unacceptable ways in order to make it easier to discredit ALL undesired opinions in general.

Is that what you are trying to do here, by claiming that hatred is just a healthy, natural feeling?

reply to post by ThinkingHuman

If true, they should GIVE their property away. By selling it, this enables them to take the wealth, the objects they would not be able to take on the boat.

Why should they give things to people who hate them. Note that Herzl emphasizes selling things at a "reasonable price." He is being very careful that Jews not be seen to be exploiting Gentiles, especially Anti-Semitic ones.

Tell me, what is the meaning of "I find that the anti-Semites are fully within their rights."
and who he calls "respectable, accredited anti-Semites".

There is not enough information in this extract to tell what he was referring to when he said "the Anti-Semites are fully within their rights." Any established, respectable citizen who hates Jews is a "respectable, accredited Anti-Semite."

Everybody interested has by now read the diary themselves. Good job, Buster.

And we can all agree that it does not say: "one of the duties of modern Zionism is to spread antisemitism so it would drive Jews to Israel." Still waiting, Buster.

Originally posted by DJW001

 

And we can all agree that it does not say: "one of the duties of modern Zionism is to spread antisemitism so it would drive Jews to Israel." Still waiting, Buster.

Zionists, and Zionism in general, are a threat to Democracies world-wide. To what extent Anti-Semitism is real, and to what extent it is a fairy tale created by Zionists (Wiesenthal, Barbara and the like), is a discussion that must be continued.

DJW001, you are entitled to believe (as in 'to have an opinion' and 'to feel') whatever you want. As does anybody, no matter if others will resort to labeling with 'artifical' words to spread hate in order to further their agenda.
DJW001, Thank you helping me develop the list, '12 Strategies of Zionists and others who try to distort the truth'.

I rest my case.

CorruptionExposed, thank you for bringing up this very important topic.

Originally posted by ThinkingHuman

Originally posted by DJW001

 

And we can all agree that it does not say: "one of the duties of modern Zionism is to spread antisemitism so it would drive Jews to Israel." Still waiting, Buster.

Zionists, and Zionism in general, are a threat to Democracies world-wide. To what extent Anti-Semitism is real, and to what extent it is a fairy tale created by Zionists (Wiesenthal, Barbara and the like), is a discussion that must be continued.

DJW001, you are entitled to believe (as in 'to have an opinion' and 'to feel') whatever you want. As does anybody, no matter if others will resort to labeling with 'artifical' words to spread hate in order to further their agenda.
DJW001, Thank you helping me develop the list, '12 Strategies of Zionists and others who try to distort the truth'.

I rest my case.

CorruptionExposed, thank you for bringing up this very important topic.

"To what extent Anti-semitism is real"???? Are you serious? Exhibit one - the Holocaust. I rest my case, destroying yours completely in the process.

reply to post by ThinkingHuman

Zionists, and Zionism in general, are a threat to Democracies world-wide.

Why? Because Jews cannot be allowed to have a place where they are safe?

To what extent Anti-Semitism is real, and to what extent it is a fairy tale created by Zionists (Wiesenthal, Barbara and the like), is a discussion that must be continued.

Are you seriously denying that Anti-Semitism exists?



Did Barbara Lerner Spectre tell this woman to teach her children to hate?



Is this the Simon Wiesenthal Center?



Nothing to see here. Anti-Semitism doesn't exist.

DJW001, you are entitled to believe (as in 'to have an opinion' and 'to feel') whatever you want.

I don't need your permission for that. On the other hand, there are such things as facts, which are not a matter of opinion or "feeling" Every post I have made on this thread has been entirely factual, not a matter of opinion. On the other hand, the folks who have been trying to shout me down have been caught in lie after lie. Buster said that "one of the duties of modern Zionism is to spread antisemitism so it would drive Jews to Israel." When I asked him where he got that, he quoted a section of Theodor Herzl's journal that said that Jews should sell their property to Anti-Semites at a fair price.

As does anybody, no matter if others will resort to labeling with 'artifical' words to spread hate in order to further their agenda.

Like using the word "Zionist" as a code word for "Jew?" If you substitute "Jew" for "Zionist" in your statement above, you get "Jews are a threat to democracies worldwide." Some people really believe that. They are called "Anti-Semites." Are you trying to spread hate here? What is your agenda?

DJW001, Thank you helping me develop the list, '12 Strategies of Zionists and others who try to distort the truth'.

Every single tactic on that list has been employed by you, time and again on this thread. You had no need of my help.

I rest my case.

You mean you have been told to stop bumping this thread because you have inadvertently been exposing the "Anti-Zionism is not Anti-Semitism" meme for the blatant lie that it is. The woman in the photograph above is undoubtedly Palestinian, and has reason to be angry with the Israeli government. But she doesn't blame the Israelis, she blames the Jews. That's not political protest, that's just plain Anti-Semitism.

CorruptionExposed, thank you for bringing up this very important topic.

Apparently Corruption doesn't consider this to be very important at all. It's been ages since he bothered to check in at all.

My advice to you, and all the others who have been trying to defend the indefensible:

STOP THE HATE!

Originally posted by AngryCymraeg
I think you'll find that Bhutan follows Mahayana Buddhism, not Islam. I was surprised to see it on your list. Why don't they acknowledge Israel's right to exist?

Because Israel has no right to exist. No nation on the planet has a right to exist.

reply to post by buster2010

Because Israel has no right to exist. No nation on the planet has a right to exist.

Then you would agree with the statement: "Palestine has no right to exist." What's all the fuss about then?

Originally posted by DJW001
reply to post by buster2010

 

Because Israel has no right to exist. No nation on the planet has a right to exist.

Then you would agree with the statement: "Palestine has no right to exist." What's all the fuss about then?

Did I say no nation has a right to exist except Palestine? Do you have to have everything spoon-fed to you?

reply to post by buster2010

Did I say no nation has a right to exist except Palestine? Do you have to have everything spoon-fed to you?

So come on out and say it: "Palestine has no right to exist." Then, answer the question I posed.