Simon Wiesenthal Center: Top 10 Anti-Semites, Israel-Haters for 2012

Originally posted by AngryCymraeg

 

I have no intention of commenting on Zionism because I'm not an expert in the Middle East.

"no intention of commenting on Zionism"?

Then your only pupose for commenting in a thread about Zionism is to troll?

Originally posted by DJW001

 

"uneducated morons", more inflammatory name-calling because their opinion does not suit you. Do I need to say more?

Only fools seek to feel better about themselves by tearing others down.

YOU ARE A FOOL - by your definition. You are tearing others down by calling a group people "uneducated morons".

To be true to my word, I need to call you a liar for the third time. You are copying my words stating "I do not hate Israel" and the you ask "why do you hate Israel?" Can you not read? Do you believe your own lies? Do you believe the reader is stupid? Why do you pretend that I said the opposite of what I did say?

You have never said that you do not hate Israel; you have never even affirmed that it has a right to exist. You said, and I quote you exactly: " I do not hate Israel because my family was not killed by them." It is a conditional statement,

YOU ARE A FOOL AND A LIAR. "You have never said that you do not hate Israel" is a lie. "It is a conditional statement" is another one of your lies.

This is not a "conditional statement" but an unqualified, absolute statement, along with a reason for the absolute truth of it.

Thank you. Notice, if you can ONLY hold one opinion, and the opposite is prohibited, then it is not an opinion but a dictate.

Thus, people like Barabara Spectre should be free to air their opinion of what is best for Europe without being demonized.

"demonized"? Of course she is entitled to express her belief or opinion that JEWS ARE SUPERIOR TO GENTILES. Nothing wrong with that, right? She stated herself that Jews will be resented for it. History repeating itself.

IMO, there are a lot more Jews in Israel than Sweden and they are doing a TERRIBLE job at peaceful integration there. IMO, Gentiles will be resented but they are needed to teach the Israelis about multi-culturism. Israel MUST go through a huge TRANSFORMATION or otherwise their society, Israel, will not SURVIVE.

I find it astounding that you consider a mere opinion to qualify for Anti-Semitism. IMO, this invalidates the whole concept that Anti-Semitism is condemnable.

And I find it astounding that you cannot comprehend the simple tautology that Anti-Semitic opinions are Anti-Semetic, and therefore people who espouse them have Anti-Semitic attitudes!

ANTI-SEMITISM IS PERFECTLY OKAY - by your definition. The moment (this) Anti-Semitism becomes "demonizable", Jews portraying SUPERIORITY to Gentiles must also be demonized. Anti-Gentilism must be demonized. Expression of ANY opinion about ANY ethnic group must be demonized.

Infact, ANY opinion about ANYTHING must be demonized because it may just be a "cloak" for an Anti-... opinion. Who wants to live in THAT society? I say No, Thanks.

reply to post by ThinkingHuman

Only fools seek to feel better about themselves by tearing others down.

YOU ARE A FOOL - by your definition. You are tearing others down by calling a group people "uneducated morons".

I did not call any group but the group of uneducated morons "uneducated morons." There are some people who are actually proud of their status.

To be true to my word, I need to call you a liar for the third time. You are copying my words stating "I do not hate Israel" and the you ask "why do you hate Israel?" Can you not read? Do you believe your own lies? Do you believe the reader is stupid? Why do you pretend that I said the opposite of what I did say?

Then clear things up. Just say: "I do not hate Israel. Israel has every right to exist and its citizens deserve to live peacefully and unmolested."

You have never said that you do not hate Israel; you have never even affirmed that it has a right to exist. You said, and I quote you exactly: " I do not hate Israel because my family was not killed by them." It is a conditional statement,

YOU ARE A FOOL AND A LIAR. "You have never said that you do not hate Israel" is a lie. "It is a conditional statement" is another one of your lies.

Again, clear things up; make an unequivocal statement: "Although Israel displaced Arabs 70 years ago, I do not hate Israel."

This is not a "conditional statement" but an unqualified, absolute statement, along with a reason for the absolute truth of it.

Just say it. "I do not hate Israel, despite all that it has done.".

Thus, people like Barabara Spectre should be free to air their opinion of what is best for Europe without being demonized.

"demonized"? Of course she is entitled to express her belief or opinion that JEWS ARE SUPERIOR TO GENTILES. Nothing wrong with that, right? She stated herself that Jews will be resented for it. History repeating itself.

Except that is not at all what she said. Nowhere does she express the opinion that Jews are superior to Gentiles. That is your fear and paranoia speaking.

IMO, there are a lot more Jews in Israel than Sweden and they are doing a TERRIBLE job at peaceful integration there. IMO, Gentiles will be resented but they are needed to teach the Israelis about multi-culturism. Israel MUST go through a huge TRANSFORMATION or otherwise their society, Israel, will not SURVIVE.

I actually agree with what you say, but not with what you mean. If you mean that Israel needs to turn back from the road to apartheid, then yes. Apartheid violates the principles of universal inclusiveness, justice and self determination that are central to traditional Jewish values. If they continue, Israel will increasingly become like the societies they rejected, and will cease to be a liberal democracy. Unfortunately, I think you are still under the impression that it means that the Israelis will all be killed. Is that how you mean it, and how do you reconcile that attitude with your supposed non-hatred of Israel?3

ANTI-SEMITISM IS PERFECTLY OKAY - by your definition.

Where did I say this and what definition are you using? I fear that you are once again arguing with a figment of your imagination.

The moment (this) Anti-Semitism becomes "demonizable", Jews portraying SUPERIORITY to Gentiles must also be demonized. Anti-Gentilism must be demonized. Expression of ANY opinion about ANY ethnic group must be demonized.

You've completely lost me here. You are the only one discussing demonization, and certainly the only one advocating it. The fact that you are still under the impression that anyone but you has claimed that Jews are superior to Gentiles on this thread suggests you have not been reading my responses at all.

Infact, ANY opinion about ANYTHING must be demonized because it may just be a "cloak" for an Anti-... opinion. Who wants to live in THAT society? I say No, Thanks.

Why must you demonize anything at all? Facts speak for themselves, that is why I advocate freedom of speech. One cannot speak for very long before revealing oneself. That is why so many are following this thread and starring your posts, but are afraid to speak for themselves.

Originally posted by DJW001

 

Just say: "I do not hate Israel. Israel has every right to exist and its citizens deserve to live peacefully and unmolested."

make an unequivocal statement: "Although Israel displaced Arabs 70 years ago, I do not hate Israel."

Just say it. "I do not hate Israel, despite all that it has done."

What a moronic thing you keep insisting to do! Why do you want to put words into my mouth? The words of a Gentile not good enough? Feeling like you can order me to use your words, rather than my own?

Okay, I will play your weird game. But you go first, you say:
"Jews are not superior to Gentiles, and Gentiles and Jews were chosen by God to the same extent, and all land areas were chosen by God to the same extent";

"I do not hate any country despite all it may have done to Jewish or Israeli people";

"Israel must go through a huge transformation, to learn to peacefully integrate Palestinians into its monolithic society in order to survive".

"Negative opinions by Jews or Israelis about any Gentile person and any country other than Israel are to be described as 'Anti-Gentilic', and those opinions are by definition hateful in nature, and must be treated with the same standard as negative opinions by Gentiles about Jews and Israel";

"Anybody may convert to Judaism is they so choose";

After you those, I will say what you ask me to say.

reply to post by ThinkingHuman

What a moronic thing you keep insisting to do! Why do you want to put words into my mouth? The words of a Gentile not good enough? Feeling like you can order me to use your words, rather than my own?

You may state your position any way you would like, provided it is not intentionally ambiguous. It has nothing to do with the fact that you consider yourself a "Gentile," but rather your inability to convey your position directly. I am certainly not "ordering" you to do anything. You can continue to be perceived as deceitful, for all I care.

Okay, I will play your weird game. But you go first, you say:
"Jews are not superior to Gentiles, and Gentiles and Jews were chosen by God to the same extent, and all land areas were chosen by God to the same extent";

No one group of human beings is inherently superior to any other group. The Jews and their culture is not superior to those of any and all non-Jewish people, including Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists and Atheists. Since there is no deity, all political questions, such as the possession of territory, are best left to reason, negotiation and the rule of law, tempered by compassion.

"I do not hate any country despite all it may have done to Jewish or Israeli people";

I do not hate any country despite all it may have done to the Jewish, Israeli, Palestinian, Kurdish, Bosnian, Serbian, Tibetan, Chinese, Native American or other oppressed peoples. Hatred is anathema to me. It is a mental illness that clouds the mind, and I refuse to hate anyone or any thing.

"Negative opinions by Jews or Israelis about any Gentile person and any country other than Israel are to be described as 'Anti-Gentilic', and those opinions are by definition hateful in nature, and must be treated with the same standard as negative opinions by Gentiles about Jews and Israel";

That doesn't even make any sense! When a White Supremacist attacks a Muslim, is that " Anti-Gentilic violence?" Would you be willing to settle for "hate speech is hate speech, no matter who it is directed against and who makes it?"

"Anybody may convert to Judaism is they so choose";

It's not for me to determine, but as far as I am concerned, anybody can convert to Judaism if they so choose.

"Israel must go through a huge transformation, to learn to peacefully integrate Palestinians into its monolithic society in order to survive".

Absolutely. Israel must go through a huge transformation to peacefully integrate Palestinians into its monolithic society in order to survive. I have great hopes that Palestinians will be willing partners in this.

After you those, I will say what you ask me to say.

There, I believe I have made my position perfectly clear. It is exactly as I have been expressing it all along. Your turn.

Originally posted by ThinkingHuman

Originally posted by AngryCymraeg

 

I have no intention of commenting on Zionism because I'm not an expert in the Middle East.

"no intention of commenting on Zionism"?

Then your only pupose for commenting in a thread about Zionism is to troll?

I feel the pressing need to point to poorly articulated arguments, as well as to point out when people aren't making sense. It's a weakness of mine.

Originally posted by ThinkingHuman

Originally posted by AngryCymraeg

 

I have no intention of commenting on Zionism because I'm not an expert in the Middle East.

"no intention of commenting on Zionism"?

Then your only pupose for commenting in a thread about Zionism is to troll?

Oh and I thought that this thread was about the Simon Wiesenthal Centre's top 10 list of Israel haters? There's a handy thing called a "title" at the top of the page.

Originally posted by AngryCymraeg

Originally posted by ThinkingHuman

Originally posted by AngryCymraeg

 

I have no intention of commenting on Zionism because I'm not an expert in the Middle East.

"no intention of commenting on Zionism"?

Then your only pupose for commenting in a thread about Zionism is to troll?

Oh and I thought that this thread was about the Simon Wiesenthal Centre's top 10 list of Israel haters? There's a handy thing called a "title" at the top of the page.

So why are you not commenting on that either? Not an expert in anything?

Originally posted by AngryCymraeg

Originally posted by ThinkingHuman

Originally posted by AngryCymraeg

 

I have no intention of commenting on Zionism because I'm not an expert in the Middle East.

"no intention of commenting on Zionism"?

Then your only pupose for commenting in a thread about Zionism is to troll?

I feel the pressing need to point to poorly articulated arguments, as well as to point out when people aren't making sense. It's a weakness of mine.

I have articulated many arguments - you have ZERO.

Originally posted by DJW001

 

For the first time in a long time I see a sincere effort on your part to be constructive.

No one group of human beings is inherently superior to any other group. The Jews and their culture is not superior to those of any and all non-Jewish people, including Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists and Atheists. Since there is no deity, all political questions, such as the possession of territory, are best left to reason, negotiation and the rule of law, tempered by compassion.

While this sounds like a good defintion for the first part of my quotation, you dropped the part about Jews and Israel not being "chosen".

I do not hate any country despite all it may have done to the Jewish, Israeli, Palestinian... or other oppressed peoples. Hatred is anathema to me. It is a mental illness that clouds the mind, and I refuse to hate anyone or any thing.

Okay.

"Negative opinions by Jews or Israelis about any Gentile person and any country other than Israel are to be described as 'Anti-Gentilic', and those opinions are by definition hateful in nature, and must be treated with the same standard as negative opinions by Gentiles about Jews and Israel";

That doesn't even make any sense! When a White Supremacist attacks a Muslim, is that " Anti-Gentilic violence?" Would you be willing to settle for "hate speech is hate speech, no matter who it is directed against and who makes it?"

Yes I would be willing to settle for that. But while your quote refers to "speech" only, I was trying broaden the statement to also address "opinion" - since that is what your definition of Anti-Semitism does, it is not limited to speech.

And, with the term "Anti-Semitic" being commonly used, I consider it necessary to have a term for the opposite also. Anti-Semitic being directed against Jewish people, I am using the term Anti-Gentilic for that which is directed by Jews against Non-Jews (which they refer to as Gentile). That enables us to compare them on equivalent, neutral basis.

It's not for me to determine, but as far as I am concerned, anybody can convert to Judaism if they so choose.

Okay.

Absolutely. Israel must go through a huge transformation to peacefully integrate Palestinians into its monolithic society in order to survive. I have great hopes that Palestinians will be willing partners in this.

I have great hopes that Palestinians will be willing partners in this, too.

There, I believe I have made my position perfectly clear. It is exactly as I have been expressing it all along. Your turn.

If you want to add "chosen", include "opinion" (or specify that Anti-Semitism does not apply to opinions), and acknowledge the term "Anti-Gentilic", then we have a deal.

reply to post by ThinkingHuman

For the first time in a long time I see a sincere effort on your part to be constructive.

Perhaps that's because this is the first time you have actually read what I wrote.

No one group of human beings is inherently superior to any other group. The Jews and their culture is not superior to those of any and all non-Jewish people, including Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists and Atheists. Since there is no deity, all political questions, such as the possession of territory, are best left to reason, negotiation and the rule of law, tempered by compassion.

While this sounds like a good defintion for the first part of my quotation, you dropped the part about Jews and Israel not being "chosen".

That is because I do not believe in the God of the Old Testament. There was no Covenant with Abraham, no Exodus, no gift of land to the Hebrews. If you believe in the Old Testament, you are a Zionist.

"Negative opinions by Jews or Israelis about any Gentile person and any country other than Israel are to be described as 'Anti-Gentilic', and those opinions are by definition hateful in nature, and must be treated with the same standard as negative opinions by Gentiles about Jews and Israel";

And, with the term "Anti-Semitic" being commonly used, I consider it necessary to have a term for the opposite also. Anti-Semitic being directed against Jewish people, I am using the term Anti-Gentilic for that which is directed by Jews against Non-Jews (which they refer to as Gentile). That enables us to compare them on equivalent, neutral basis.

Again, this makes absolutely no sense. Expressions like Anti-Semitic, Anti-Catholic, Anti-American, Anti-Iranian, Islamophobic, Homophobic, etc, denote the group which is being discriminated against. What is the opposite of Anti-Catholic? Anti-American? Islamophobic? Pro-Catholic. Pro-American. Islamophile. There are no expressions to convey a global dislike on the part of specific groups. There is no such thing as "Anti-Non-Catholicism." "Anti-Gentile" conveys a false symmetry. Where did you get it? Stormfront?

There, I believe I have made my position perfectly clear. It is exactly as I have been expressing it all along. Your turn.

If you want to add "chosen", include "opinion" (or specify that Anti-Semitism does not apply to opinions), and acknowledge the term "Anti-Gentilic", then we have a deal.

As I have pointed out, only Zionists believe that the Jews are "chosen." Of course the phrase "Anti-Semitic" applies to opinions, even when they are not expressed. As for "Anti-Gentilic," the concept is as absurd as "Anti-Non-Presbyterian."

Originally posted by DJW001

 

Expressions like Anti-Semitic, Anti-Catholic, Anti-American, Anti-Iranian, Islamophobic, Homophobic, etc, denote the group which is being discriminated against.

Of course the phrase "Anti-Semitic" applies to opinions, even when they are not expressed. As for "Anti-Gentilic," the concept is as absurd as "Anti-Non-Presbyterian."

No, actually you are making no sense. "Gentile" is a group as you well know. And you conveniently left out another hate group, White Supremacists. People can hate not just one specific group but ALL OTHERS who are different.

Maybe you like it better, or follow what I am saying more easily, if I call the racists not "Anti-Gentilists" but rather "Jewish Supremacists".

IMO, Barbara in the video is an example of a Jewish Supremacist. She expresses an opinion of Jews being superior to non-Jewish (gentile) Swedes by claiming that the Swedes depend on the Jews to save their society from "not surviving".

Even if you happen to disagree in her particular case, there may be other Jews in the past or future who are Jewish Supremacist. If they exhibit similar behavior as Anti-Semites, as you suggested earlier (hate speech is hate speech not matter who makes it), their behavior must be equally open to discussion, criticism and condemnation just as much as that of Anti-Semites.

In today's environment this seems impossible because simply criticizing a Jewish person for expressing racist opinions is being attacked as Anti-Semitic. This prejudice has proven to be impossible to overcome, even 68 years after the end of the Holocaust. One step in finally overcoming it is to give a name to the phenomenon of a Jewish person expressing racist opinions, either Anti-Gentilism or Jewish Supremacism, and to define it (as you did) equivalently, though opposite, to Anti-Semitism.

Originally posted by ThinkingHuman

Originally posted by AngryCymraeg

Originally posted by ThinkingHuman

Originally posted by AngryCymraeg

 

I have no intention of commenting on Zionism because I'm not an expert in the Middle East.

"no intention of commenting on Zionism"?

Then your only pupose for commenting in a thread about Zionism is to troll?

Oh and I thought that this thread was about the Simon Wiesenthal Centre's top 10 list of Israel haters? There's a handy thing called a "title" at the top of the page.

So why are you not commenting on that either? Not an expert in anything?

A degree in history and a certain amount of expertise in financial journalism actually.

Originally posted by ThinkingHuman

Originally posted by AngryCymraeg

Originally posted by ThinkingHuman

Originally posted by AngryCymraeg

 

I have no intention of commenting on Zionism because I'm not an expert in the Middle East.

"no intention of commenting on Zionism"?

Then your only pupose for commenting in a thread about Zionism is to troll?

I feel the pressing need to point to poorly articulated arguments, as well as to point out when people aren't making sense. It's a weakness of mine.

I have articulated many arguments - you have ZERO.

I have what I like to think is common sense. Oh and a few less bees in my bonnet than you perhaps. Can you tone the anger down a bit please?

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They forgot a few.

1. The Simon Wiesenthal Center
2. The ADL
3. The JDL
4. AIPAC

Let's not forget about how the man that started modern day Zionism said one of the duties of Zionist was to spread antisemitism so it would drive Jews to Israel.

Originally posted by buster2010
They forgot a few.

1. The Simon Wiesenthal Center
2. The ADL
3. The JDL
4. AIPAC

Let's not forget about how the man that started modern day Zionism said one of the duties of Zionist was to spread antisemitism so it would drive Jews to Israel.

If it only aimed to spread Jews to Israel I would have no problem with that. I believe, as the example with Barbara shows, that it aims to control politics world-wide. It creates a litmus test for politicians to be pro-Zionist or else they must fight against the considerable power of Zionists. The US is one example for that.

AIPAC and other pro-Israel lobbying groups are not being stopped by the US government to lobby, ie. manipulate, financially support elections and appointments of pro-Zionist government officials - in favor of the interests of Israel. Why do Americans allow this to happen?

reply to post by buster2010

Let's not forget about how the man that started modern day Zionism said one of the duties of Zionist was to spread antisemitism so it would drive Jews to Israel.

Source, please.

reply to post by ThinkingHuman

If it only aimed to spread Jews to Israel I would have no problem with that. I believe, as the example with Barbara shows, that it aims to control politics world-wide. It creates a litmus test for politicians to be pro-Zionist or else they must fight against the considerable power of Zionists. The US is one example for that.

Except, of course, that you have completely twisted Barbara Lerner Spectre's words to fit your own agenda.

AIPAC and other pro-Israel lobbying groups are not being stopped by the US government to lobby, ie. manipulate, financially support elections and appointments of pro-Zionist government officials - in favor of the interests of Israel. Why do Americans allow this to happen?

Because the Constitution explicitly provides for freedom of speech. Are you opposed to individuals banding together to exercise their right to free speech?