Why is it that people with no knowledge of communism are so against it?

Originally posted by JarheadFidelis
If you have studied the works and theories and history and still dont get why it doesnt work....you may never get it. Go visit a communist country and get a good feel for it and then tell us how you feel about the subject.

What communist country? I thought it was already established because it doesn't work no country has ever tried it?

Russia was not communist, and neither were the other so called communist countries.

They were all state-capitalist. Private ownership of the means of production by the state.

Communism is against all forms of capitalism, no matter who the private owner is. Communism can only be worker ownership because anything else is exploitation.

I've read most of what the OP listed and much more.
A really good read about communism is Anne Applebaums "Gulag".
Also The state of revolution- Lenin
Marx for Beginners - Rius
Tons of books out there.

Communism has one major flaw. It doesn't work.

Originally posted by NysgjerrigDame
I agree. Most so-called communists just use that fact that communism is most logical and makes the most common sense to become dictators. Examples are the USSR, cuba, North Korea, etc. But nobody ever talks about Spain before Franco's coup. I believe that unless you've read the Communist Manifesot, Socialism: Utopian and Scientific, State and Revolution: by Lenin, the Foundations of Leninism, The New Class: Djilas, Combat Liberalism (communists detest liberalism), I do not believe that you have right to talk about it. There are many more works that ought to be read on the matter. Most of ATS believes the lies of the West, but if any, those of you whom have truly studied the communist works, what is your argument against it?

edit on 2-1-2013 by NysgjerrigDame because: (no reason given)

edit on 2-1-2013 by NysgjerrigDame because: (no reason given)

I have knowledge of communism. I'm against it.

reply to post by ANOK


Okay, thanks for clearing that up for me. I just know the theory and why it doesnt work. As history has shown us it doesnt.

Originally posted by badgerprints

A really good read about communism is Anne Applebaums "Gulag".
Also The state of revolution- Lenin
Marx for Beginners - Rius

No they are not about communism they are about the USSR.

And why not actually read Marx instead of someone elses opinion of him?

Marxism is not communism, it is a political path to communism, an important distinction. Not all socialists are Marxists, Anarchists are also socialists/communists.

"Politically we are anarchists, and economically, communists or socialists." Adolph Fischer, Anarchism: Its Philosophy and Scientific Basis as Defined by Some of its Apostles (1887)

To socialists the state is no different to capitalism, they are both exploitative and oppressive systems.

Originally posted by ANOK

Originally posted by hellobruce

It has never worked in any country, anywhere.

Because it's never really been tried.

Except as the OP mentioned in Spain prior to Franco's takeover the country was ran by the anarchist CNT on socialist/communist principles, that being the common ownership of the means to produce and a sharing of resources instead of exploiting for profit.

It worked very well for two years, it failed not because it doesn't work but because of outside authoritarian forces.

1936-1939: The Spanish civil war and revolution

Good post OP, we need more true left representation on ATS.

It does not work since it is not allowed to work. The capitalists do not let even so "labeled communist countries" exists by their side since it can give their own population ideas. How much crap have CIA done in south America and Cuba to keep their view of rought capitalism in those countries that even was not implemented in US since it would cause an outrage. US was the country you showed for the world as an example that capitalism works and the only reason it worked/works in US is because US is a parasite on all other countries resources (imperial power) with the help of their corperations.

You split up the whole world in two parts and have total capitalism in one part and total communism (with not parasiting political soultrash and direct democracy from the people) in another part and people can leave for the goverment they want and see what part of the world will be more socially healthy after 50 years.

Capitalism premote greed and ego and natural disaster on a global scale.

Originally posted by JarheadFidelis
reply to post by ANOK

 

Okay, thanks for clearing that up for me. I just know the theory and why it doesnt work. As history has shown us it doesnt.

No, I showed you where it did work. Stop trying to deny the reality of history.

Capitalism doesn't work for the majority of people if you haven't noticed. We can do anything, it's negative attitudes like yours that will keep us under an economic system that doesn't benefit us.

Originally posted by badgerprints
I've read most of what the OP listed and much more.
A really good read about communism is Anne Applebaums "Gulag".
Also The state of revolution- Lenin
Marx for Beginners - Rius
Tons of books out there.

Communism has one major flaw. It doesn't work.

I gave you a star just for the fact that you said that you were familiar with most of what I mentioned. I am above disregarding people whom disagree with me. Thank you for your contribution.

This entire thread is so sad. Only one person has admitted to reading the works of only a portion of those I have mentioned. Every other person in this thread that is opposed to it is doing it is opposed due to their specific country`s propaganda. So so very sad.

Originally posted by cconn487
I'm sure Edison failed multiple times while creating the light bulb.

I'm sure Edison tried something different each time, not the same thing over and over again.

Communism assumes that you'll work as hard to put food on your neighbors table as you would your own . People will always work harder if you reward them directly , and you don't have to keep an eye on everyone to make sure they're working hard either .

Just want to post some real goodies from Lenin, he was a peach.....socialism is so serene and utopian....

The revolutionary dictatorship of the proletariat is rule won, and maintained, by the use of violence, by the proletariat, against the bourgeoisie, rule that is unrestricted by any laws.[21]

And if you exploiters attempt to offer resistance to our proletarian revolution we shall ruthlessly suppress you; we shall deprive you of all rights; more than that, we shall not give you any bread, for in our proletarian republic the exploiters will have no rights, they will be deprived of fire and water, for we are socialists in real earnest, and not in the Scheidemann or Kautsky fashion.[21]

The dictatorship of the proletariat, i.e. the organization of the vanguard of the oppressed as the ruling class for the purpose of suppressing the oppressors, cannot result merely in an expansion of democracy. Simultaneously, with an immense expansion of democracy, which, for the first time, becomes democracy for the poor, democracy for the people, and not democracy for the money-bags, the dictatorship of the proletariat imposes a series of restrictions on the freedom of the oppressors, the exploiters, the capitalists. We must suppress them in order to free humanity from wage slavery, their resistance must be crushed by force;

www.marxists.org...


So basically, hate the rich, hate hard workers and earners, hate of private property rights and individualism, hate of success.

And help the workers rise up by suppressing other that you detest. Fantastic. Nothing hypocritical about that.

Reading his works really gives me inside into the liberal mind and an explanation of what is happening to Europe and the USA.

Thanks for getting me to research him further, now I know how to fight back and what to watch for.

Originally posted by NysgjerrigDame

Originally posted by badgerprints
I've read most of what the OP listed and much more.
A really good read about communism is Anne Applebaums "Gulag".
Also The state of revolution- Lenin
Marx for Beginners - Rius
Tons of books out there.

Communism has one major flaw. It doesn't work.

I gave you a star just for the fact that you said that you were familiar with most of what I mentioned. I am above disregarding people whom disagree with me. Thank you for your contribution.

It's not really about disagreement. It's just noting historical results.
Communism simply won't work with people who are aware of a life outside of communism. It is a nice idea but it relies on people to be almost non-human. Absolute servitude is not something that is possible without extreme coercion. Perfect leadership is also non existent.

When I started my Army enlistment, the Berlin wall was still up. The USSR was still the enemy and a tour in South Korea was considered hardship due to the politics with North Korea and live fire DMZ duty. It gave me a strong interest in history and I have read a number of books on The USSR, China, North Korea, North Vietnam, Cuba, eastern bloc, Romania and even Laos.
I visited the site of the first Soviet commune established in Romania about four years ago when traveling for my job. It was very interesting talking to Romanians about living in a communist society.
I have a co worker I see every day who was in the north Vietnamese army.

Lots of failed communist countries and the ones that are left are pretty much capitalist/communist hybrids except North Korea which relies heavily on handouts. History just doesn't support communism as a civilized model except under strong duress of the population.

Not that the idea is bad. A workers paradise would be great but only a society of robots could make it work.

Originally posted by badgerprints

It's not really about disagreement. It's just noting historical results.

But the history you have been taught is not the truth.

Russia was never communist. The Bolsheviks used a twisted version of Marxist ideology to simply take state power. They had no intention of implementing a communist economy.

The real communists were opposed to the Bolsheviks. In fact Animal Farm by the Socialist, George Orwell, was about Lenin and the Bolsheviks. All the Bolsheviks did is change their party name from the Bolshevik party to the communist party.

Left-wing uprisings against the Bolsheviks were a series of rebellions and uprisings against the Bolsheviks led or supported by left wing groups including Socialist Revolutionaries, Left Socialist Revolutionaries, Mensheviks, and anarchists. Some were in support of the White Movement while some tried to be an independent force. The uprisings started in 1918 and continued through the Russian Civil War and after until 1922. In response the Bolsheviks increasingly abandoned attempts to get these groups to join the government and suppressed them with force.

Left-wing uprisings against the Bolsheviks

The real working class left did not support the regime in the USSR, far from it.

reply to post by NysgjerrigDame


i know next to nothing about communism. that being said....

...I, too, find it amazing that the people with the loudest voices on this thread seem to be the least knowledgable. added upon by the fact that your title is an obvious bait for this sort of troll. the condition of critical intelligence is abominable these days.

notice how I didn't say anything about communism? because I don't know it. simple.


"communism is baaaaadd." "watch out fer the turrrrists, they're baaaaaaadd."

Originally posted by timetothink
Just want to post some real goodies from Lenin, he was a peach.....socialism is so serene and utopian....

The revolutionary dictatorship of the proletariat is rule won, and maintained, by the use of violence, by the proletariat, against the bourgeoisie, rule that is unrestricted by any laws.[21]

And if you exploiters attempt to offer resistance to our proletarian revolution we shall ruthlessly suppress you; we shall deprive you of all rights; more than that, we shall not give you any bread, for in our proletarian republic the exploiters will have no rights, they will be deprived of fire and water, for we are socialists in real earnest, and not in the Scheidemann or Kautsky fashion.[21]

The dictatorship of the proletariat, i.e. the organization of the vanguard of the oppressed as the ruling class for the purpose of suppressing the oppressors, cannot result merely in an expansion of democracy. Simultaneously, with an immense expansion of democracy, which, for the first time, becomes democracy for the poor, democracy for the people, and not democracy for the money-bags, the dictatorship of the proletariat imposes a series of restrictions on the freedom of the oppressors, the exploiters, the capitalists. We must suppress them in order to free humanity from wage slavery, their resistance must be crushed by force;

www.marxists.org...


So basically, hate the rich, hate hard workers and earners, hate of private property rights and individualism, hate of success.

And help the workers rise up by suppressing other that you detest. Fantastic. Nothing hypocritical about that.

Reading his works really gives me inside into the liberal mind and an explanation of what is happening to Europe and the USA.

Thanks for getting me to research him further, now I know how to fight back and what to watch for.

edit on 2-1-2013 by timetothink because: (no reason given)

Do you care to post his entire writings? C´mon. Even the bible can be taken as evil if you only recite certain parts. Isaiah 45:7 for example. Thank you for wasting out time.

reply to post by timetothink


Again what you are quoting is Marxism. Marxism is not communism, it is a political path/movement to/for communism.

Having said that though the so called 'dictatorship of the proletariat' is the temporary state system that some communist/socialist thought necessary in order to move from capitalist to socialist economy. Once the economy is worker owned then the state would become unnecessary. Not saying I agree, but that is what Marxism is.

Not all socialists/communists support Marxism. Anarchists were socialists/communists who were apposed to the political path of Marxism, and other socialist movements, and wanted direct action.

Read about Marx and Bakunin to understand this...

THE TEMPESTUOUS relation between Marx and Bakunin is a well known legacy of the history of western socialism. As co-members of the International Working Men’s Association, they seem to have devoted as much energy battling one another as their common enemy, the capitalist system, culminating in Marx’s successful campaign to expel Bakunin from the organization. While at times engaging in cordial relations, they nevertheless harbored uncomplimentary mutual assessments. According to Marx, Bakunin was “a man devoid of all theoretical knowledge” and was “in his element as an intriguer”,1 while Bakunin believed that “... the instinct of liberty is lacking in him [Marx]; he remains from head to foot, an authoritarian”....

The Philosophical Roots of the Marx-Bakunin Conflict

I haven't read Marx for decades. I agree with the OP that the question "Why is it that people with no knowledge of communism are so against it?" is an entirely valid point. On the other hand, it is a trivial point. It appears that neither the OP nor her relief pitcher can come up with a universally acceptable definition for communism. Put 100 comrades in a room and ask them to agree on what true communism is. I hope you've screened them for weapons, because the arguments will be fierce. Which one of these is true communism?

Anarcho-Communism
Left Communists
Marxism
Leninism
Trotskyism
Stalinism
Maoism
Utopian socialists
Free market socialists
Scientific socialism
Anarcho-syndicalism
Reformist Marxism
Council Communism
Libertarian Socialism
Market Socialism
Ricardian Socialism
Mutualism
Liberal Socialism
State Capitalism
Eurocommunism
Autonomist Marxism
Social Centre movement
Post-Structuralists
Bolshevism
Mutualist Anarchism
Collectivist Anarchism
Situationism
Social Democracy
Democratic Socialism
Ethical Socialism
Religious Socialism
Christian Socialism
Christian Anarchism
Islamic Socialism
Regional Socialism
Eco-Socialism
Green Anarchism
Nationalist and Ethnocentric socialism

I'm sure that supporters of those schools would say they have true communism, and everyone else is a running dog revisionist. The OP and ANOK wholeheartedly support one or more of the variations listed, but that alone doesn't mean they have found true communism.

What would be helpful for me would be if people who defend communism provide an explanation, in some detail, of what they are defending.

I'm also disappointed at the other clever moves being employed by it's defenders. "You can't say it's failed because true communism has never been tried." "Sure, it failed, but only because of the pressure of imperialist, capitalist countries." "Well, it did work. Sure, for only two years, but Spain didn't blow up in those two years. Ok, so it did, but you haven't read enough in communist literature, so you're not entitled to a serious opinion."

This could still become a worthwhile thread. Simply explain clearly what you mean by communism, what has to be done to get there, and discuss whether Americans want to take those steps.

reply to post by NysgjerrigDame


The owners of this site frown on large bandwidth wasting posts.

If you read them, I don't need to post them.

Nothing any socialist/communist lover can say could ever change my mind......don't like it and never will.

And coming from someone who "supposedly" owns a business with 16 employees and has a lot of money "your words" it has even less meaning.

Practice what you preach and divide up your company between your workers giving them equal ownership and say. You can't be an owner and decry communism.......hyp O crite!,

reply to post by ANOK


I quoted Lenin's words because the OP was based on him.

They all stink anyway.