Controversy as 200 Utah teachers to be given concealed weapons training in wake of Sandy Hook

reply to post by MysterX


Though you do have a point....if the police arrive and there are 10 people shooting....how will the police know who the criminal is?..teachers could get shot by police too.....and bullets do go through walls you know......the kids can be hiding in their classrooms and take a shot!

reply to post by thisguyrighthere


Wow thats sucks, armed police who are not trained, have you seen what our police have to go through to get on the firearms team.
I agree with the guy above get security on the doors heck get better doors.
Teachers should only have to worry about teaching not a gun battle with kids running about.

Originally posted by WhereIsTheBatman

Like I said in an earlier post, there is no black and white in this world. Only shades of grey. I wonder whether this will resolve anything. I guess it's better to have a first line of defense just in case horrible event should reoccur. Let's hope not. I sincerely hope this will deter potential shooters.

www.dailymail.co.uk
(visit the link for the full news article)

edit on 28-12-2012 by WhereIsTheBatman because: typo

Well it certainly won't put the kids in any danger, so there is no negative to this. If a crazy person knows that the teachers are armed then that may keep the potential shooter from going to a particular school, and if he/she goes there anyway, at least there is some form of defense. The bottom line is that even if the teachers are armed, a shooter will still be able to kill a few people before a teacher could respond, but I guess 5 dead kids is better than 20, even though both outcomes are tragic.

Originally posted by boymonkey74
reply to post by thisguyrighthere

 

Wow thats sucks, armed police who are not trained, have you seen what our police have to go through to get on the firearms team.
I agree with the guy above get security on the doors heck get better doors.
Teachers should only have to worry about teaching not a gun battle with kids running about.

A my kid's school, all the doors are locked the whole day, there is only one way in and its throught the main door (locked also). There is a camera with an intercom, and you have to state your full name, name of your kid, teacher's name, group #, etc...if not you wait outside. No guns anywhere!

This was only established after a gunman walked in in April 2011 (no shots fired though thank god, 2 of my kids were there at the time). Its sad really that is takes this kind of incident before they take precautions.

Originally posted by Teye22
PUT METAL DETECTORS AT EVERY SINGLE ENTRANCE WITH AN ARMED SECURITY GUARD!!!! this would work a lot beter I think.

This sandy hook shooting i read the kid shot through a window to get in, and also if someone wanted to commit another shooting, i doubt they will stop once the beeping goes off. One more point, my high school had about 30 entrances, so the price for an armed guard at every doorway and a metal detector would never work too pricey.

oh man how much is the union going to negotiate for salary increases for carrying guns, having to go through training and to be certified every year? I'm thinking huge increases in salary...

reply to post by chrismarco


Rightly so as well, I would want to have a raise if they told me I had to be armed to teach kids.
BTW what If the Teacher refuses to carry one?

Originally posted by OptimusSubprime

Originally posted by WhereIsTheBatman

Like I said in an earlier post, there is no black and white in this world. Only shades of grey. I wonder whether this will resolve anything. I guess it's better to have a first line of defense just in case horrible event should reoccur. Let's hope not. I sincerely hope this will deter potential shooters.

www.dailymail.co.uk
(visit the link for the full news article)

edit on 28-12-2012 by WhereIsTheBatman because: typo

Well it certainly won't put the kids in any danger, so there is no negative to this. If a crazy person knows that the teachers are armed then that may keep the potential shooter from going to a particular school, and if he/she goes there anyway, at least there is some form of defense. The bottom line is that even if the teachers are armed, a shooter will still be able to kill a few people before a teacher could respond, but I guess 5 dead kids is better than 20, even though both outcomes are tragic.

Armed guards at the entrance would avoid the person going inside altogether though wouldnt it? Or at least keep him as far away from the classrooms as possible. Unless the gunman wins that initial fight of course...but I think that no way will ever get schools 100% secure unfortunately

If someone is really determined for whatever reason, he/she will get to his destination. This is the world we live in I guess

Originally posted by Teye22
Yeah Great Idea!!!!

So next time there is a shooting, it will not be one way....it will now be a gun fight....lets just wait and see at the next shooting (I truely hope there are none of course). There will be kids cought in the cross fire and as many will be hit by teachers as the mad gunman...I think it is the worst Idea ever.......

PUT METAL DETECTORS AT EVERY SINGLE ENTRANCE WITH AN ARMED SECURITY GUARD!!!! this would work a lot beter I think.

The problem I think is not to shot the person walking in the school with a gun...Its keeping him outside the school in the first place.

Inner city schools here in St. Louis already have metal detectors. Kids laugh about how easy it is to still smuggle items into the schools. It helps, but isn't fail-proof.

I also notice most of the objections in this thread are coming from foreigners. Not that you all aren't entitled to your opinions, just sayin'.

reply to post by scottromansky


There are ways to go around that but in a highschool, its harder to implement I would guess. Even if you tell the students to only use the one door for security reasons, the will be those rebels that will go out where they please.

Maybe place alarms at other doors...I dunno but I just dont think that guns inside the classrooms is the answer IMO.

Originally posted by boymonkey74

Wow thats sucks, armed police who are not trained, have you seen what our police have to go through to get on the firearms team.

Truthfully I havent ever looked into UK training.

If it's anything like this though: Euro Tactical PFTC it's essentially the same as a few rounds of IDPA or 3-Gun.

Not what I'd consider high training.

I'm curious now, what do laymen think cops are trained for and how do you think they are trained?

I guarantee there is a pretty wide disconnect from what the public perceives and what the reality is.

reply to post by thisguyrighthere


From wiki

Training
Out of the total 150,000 officers in the 39 territorial police forces in England, 6,500 are trained in the use of firearms. 2,500 of them are in service with the Metropolitan Police.[14]
Before a police officer can apply to join the firearms unit, they are required to have completed their two year probationary period. After being screened for security clearance and undergoing various interviews, they are invited to attend the National Police Firearms Training Centre at Gravesend, Kent. At the centre, the potential AFOs undergo one week of intensive training on the Glock 17 pistol, Heckler & Koch MP5 semi automatic carbine, Heckler & Koch L104A1 baton gun and the X26 Taser. This is followed by training on the legal regulations regarding the police use of firearms and rules of engagement, a further six weeks of training is focused solely on ARVs, with an emphasis on driving techniques, high speed pursuit methods and safely executing controlled crashes.
Authorised Firearms Officers applying to become Specialist Firearms Officers, are required to attend an eight week training course at the National Police Firearms Training Centre. The main role of an SFO is to intervene in situations that are beyond the control of AFOs, such as building sieges involving a hostage situation. Potential SFOs are extensively trained in the use of specialist firearms, method of entry techniques and abseiling 'fast rope' skills. Potential SFOs are also trained in safe entry into air and watercraft. Training also includes the use of tear gas and stun grenades, safe handling of hostages and rescue techniques, computer simulated 'war games' of potential threats such as a major evacuation or terrorist attack, and training in the use of protective clothing against CBRN attack.
The guidelines regarding operational use of firearms and rules of engagement are dictated by the Association of Chief Police Officers, making sure that the rules outlined are compliant with the European Convention of Human Rights and the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984. Firearms officers are authorised to fire upon a suspect if they pose an "immediate threat to life", such as if an armed offender brandished a firearm at a member of the public or police officer. They may also fire if an offender is clearly in possession of a firearm, or is suspected to be carrying one. In all situations, a clear oral warning must be given of the officers intention to use firearms, unless in a particular situation it would be pointless or place life at risk. Firearms officers are also authorised to use their firearms for the humane destruction of animals, if the latter pose a significant threat.[15] Firearms officer are not required to give an oral warning if they are approaching someone who is believed to be intent on committing a suicide bombing. All officers are trained to fire once at the central mass in order to incapacitate a threat, then to re-assess the situation and the threat posed to justify any further shots. However, if Operation Kratos contingency plans are activated, an armed officer may shoot at the target's head, to kill, as a standard incapacitating shot risks detonating a bomb attached to the person. In all situations, the officer is to make the decision when to shoot. However, they are accountable in court and are asked to justify their actions in a court of law.

We only have 6500 trained officers in the UK, I'm happy with that.
I knew a guy in London (Proper cockney copper) who was one of the first trained as a SFO and boy he told me it was so hard to pass. An AFO is just a normal copper who can get access to a firearm if needs be.

Originally posted by Merlin Lawndart

Originally posted by Teye22
Yeah Great Idea!!!!

So next time there is a shooting, it will not be one way....it will now be a gun fight....lets just wait and see at the next shooting (I truely hope there are none of course). There will be kids cought in the cross fire and as many will be hit by teachers as the mad gunman...I think it is the worst Idea ever.......

PUT METAL DETECTORS AT EVERY SINGLE ENTRANCE WITH AN ARMED SECURITY GUARD!!!! this would work a lot beter I think.

The problem I think is not to shot the person walking in the school with a gun...Its keeping him outside the school in the first place.

Inner city schools here in St. Louis already have metal detectors. Kids laugh about how easy it is to still smuggle items into the schools. It helps, but isn't fail-proof.

I also notice most of the objections in this thread are coming from foreigners. Not that you all aren't entitled to your opinions, just sayin'.

Foreigner! I know Im not in the US but I can drive there within a few hours so its not like Im accross the globe or anything. If you didn't read my earlier posts, you will see that I have lived a similar story less than 2 years ago at my kids school (although no one got hurt) I still lived through this sort of hell so I am no foreigner to this subject of discussion thank you very much!

Originally posted by Teye22

Originally posted by Merlin Lawndart

Originally posted by Teye22
Yeah Great Idea!!!!

So next time there is a shooting, it will not be one way....it will now be a gun fight....lets just wait and see at the next shooting (I truely hope there are none of course). There will be kids cought in the cross fire and as many will be hit by teachers as the mad gunman...I think it is the worst Idea ever.......

PUT METAL DETECTORS AT EVERY SINGLE ENTRANCE WITH AN ARMED SECURITY GUARD!!!! this would work a lot beter I think.

The problem I think is not to shot the person walking in the school with a gun...Its keeping him outside the school in the first place.

Inner city schools here in St. Louis already have metal detectors. Kids laugh about how easy it is to still smuggle items into the schools. It helps, but isn't fail-proof.

I also notice most of the objections in this thread are coming from foreigners. Not that you all aren't entitled to your opinions, just sayin'.

Foreigner! I know Im not in the US but I can drive there within a few hours so its not like Im accross the globe or anything. If you didn't read my earlier posts, you will see that I have lived a similar story less than 2 years ago at my kids school (although no one got hurt) I still lived through this sort of hell so I am no foreigner to this subject of discussion thank you very much!

I don't even know what you just said. I don't speak Canadian.

reply to post by Merlin Lawndart


Typical!

Never heard that one before!

Originally posted by boymonkey74
reply to post by thisguyrighthere

 

From wiki

Training
Out of the total 150,000 officers in the 39 territorial police forces in England, 6,500 are trained in the use of firearms. 2,500 of them are in service with the Metropolitan Police.[14]
Before a police officer can apply to join the firearms unit, they are required to have completed their two year probationary period. After being screened for security clearance and undergoing various interviews, they are invited to attend the National Police Firearms Training Centre at Gravesend, Kent. At the centre, the potential AFOs undergo one week of intensive training on the Glock 17 pistol, Heckler & Koch MP5 semi automatic carbine, Heckler & Koch L104A1 baton gun and the X26 Taser. This is followed by training on the legal regulations regarding the police use of firearms and rules of engagement, a further six weeks of training is focused solely on ARVs, with an emphasis on driving techniques, high speed pursuit methods and safely executing controlled crashes.
Authorised Firearms Officers applying to become Specialist Firearms Officers, are required to attend an eight week training course at the National Police Firearms Training Centre. The main role of an SFO is to intervene in situations that are beyond the control of AFOs, such as building sieges involving a hostage situation. Potential SFOs are extensively trained in the use of specialist firearms, method of entry techniques and abseiling 'fast rope' skills. Potential SFOs are also trained in safe entry into air and watercraft. Training also includes the use of tear gas and stun grenades, safe handling of hostages and rescue techniques, computer simulated 'war games' of potential threats such as a major evacuation or terrorist attack, and training in the use of protective clothing against CBRN attack.
The guidelines regarding operational use of firearms and rules of engagement are dictated by the Association of Chief Police Officers, making sure that the rules outlined are compliant with the European Convention of Human Rights and the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984. Firearms officers are authorised to fire upon a suspect if they pose an "immediate threat to life", such as if an armed offender brandished a firearm at a member of the public or police officer. They may also fire if an offender is clearly in possession of a firearm, or is suspected to be carrying one. In all situations, a clear oral warning must be given of the officers intention to use firearms, unless in a particular situation it would be pointless or place life at risk. Firearms officers are also authorised to use their firearms for the humane destruction of animals, if the latter pose a significant threat.[15] Firearms officer are not required to give an oral warning if they are approaching someone who is believed to be intent on committing a suicide bombing. All officers are trained to fire once at the central mass in order to incapacitate a threat, then to re-assess the situation and the threat posed to justify any further shots. However, if Operation Kratos contingency plans are activated, an armed officer may shoot at the target's head, to kill, as a standard incapacitating shot risks detonating a bomb attached to the person. In all situations, the officer is to make the decision when to shoot. However, they are accountable in court and are asked to justify their actions in a court of law.

We only have 6500 trained officers in the UK, I'm happy with that.
I knew a guy in London (Proper cockney copper) who was one of the first trained as a SFO and boy he told me it was so hard to pass. An AFO is just a normal copper who can get access to a firearm if needs be.

edit on 28-12-2012 by boymonkey74 because: (no reason given)

Bro, paragraphs are your friend. I'm sure everybody looks like your avatar after trying to read your last post.

reply to post by boymonkey74


This is exactly what I'm talking about. Descriptions make it sound like so much is going on but at the course of fire it's not like it sounds in reports and PR releases at all.

Squadding up, moving as a unit, proper handling, transitions, threat identification, shooting up stress, while wounded, etc....

These are elements of gun games.

Even building clearing, shooting through ambushes and hostile terrain movements with simmunition.

There isnt anything special or magical about this stuff.

8 weeks spent shooting guns is not at all like a lifetime spent studying Judo for instance yet the public holds these people up on some pedestal while completely dismissing the fact that millions of non-cop and non-military people are walking around with way more hours under their belts.

Id like to know what specifically your buddy thought was hard because outside of the physical work your body may or may not be up to the gun stuff and the tactics stuff can be done by anyone.

If teachers wanted to be police officers, they would of become police officers. The answer isn't more guns.

200 teachers is hardly news anyways, out of 26,300.

reply to post by Teye22


This isn't that complicated. There's no need to reinvent the wheel.

To protect the President's kids that have multiple armed guards at the school. I'm sure they thought this through and decided t this is the most effective tactic.

Just go to a courthouse. They have multiple armed guards and a metal detector at the entrance. No single shoot is going to get past two armed guards. Same thing at airports.

Why shouldn't kids at school be protected in the same way judges are protected?

reply to post by thisguyrighthere


Futiley??

Some quick thinking on the teacher's part kept dozens and dozens of children safe....without firearms.