What Qur'an says about Deism.

Originally posted by babloyi
reply to post by racasan

 

Hey racasan!

I get the feeling you really did not understand my point. Having a certain theological or idealogical view does not necessitate or require ignorance of all other views, in fact, knowledge of other views strengthens the original views (or destroys it if it is wrong, so either way, good). So just because a person may not believe in Islam, doesn't mean they should be proud of not knowing about it. I hope you understand that that is utter idiocy and literally the definition of ignorance.

Not sure what you are saying - but I have read the quran

Originally posted by racasan

I don't believe (again, my interpretation of the OP) that the OP was in any way suggesting "Islam has a similar view of the world to this aspect of deism, therefore deists should follow Islam". What I understood it as was "Islam has a similar view of the world to this aspect of deism".

edit on 29-12-2012 by babloyi because: (no reason given)

edit on 29-12-2012 by babloyi because: (no reason given)

But its can be shown that islam does not have that view

What on earth does Ghazali and muslim nobel laureates have to do with whether Islam has that view, considering that the OP quoted (and I paraphrased) passages from the Islamic scripture that show it does?

edit on 3-1-2013 by babloyi because: (no reason given)

Where I come from they say that the proof of the pudding is in the eating – there are something like 1 billion + muslims in the world and there contribution to science as measured in noble prizes is poor, the Jews at around 15 million have loads

en.wikipedia.org...
en.wikipedia.org...


why do you think that is?

reply to post by wildtimes

How is the Muslim world in general
trying to eradicate it?

Hey wildtimes!
I don't know the details of what you and logical have been discussing, and I'm not sure I agree with all of either his/her points or your points, but I just wanted to point out:

How is the Muslim world in general
trying to eradicate it?

Not that I am shi'ite or Irani or anything, Iran has removed stoning as a punishment for adultery now.

reply to post by babloyi


Yes, I saw that Iran had outlawed it....
which is good on them.
Thanks for the shout out, though!

logical7 and I have been discussing Deism, Reincarnation, and now Islam.

reply to post by racasan

Originally posted by racasan
Not sure what you are saying - but I have read the quran

Good on you, but your previous statements suggested that such investigation is useless and irrelevant, depending on your belief system (i.e. the "X couldn't care less about what it says" stuff). What I have been trying to say since then is that such an approach to learning and knowledge is deeply ignorant and detrimental.

Originally posted by racasan
Where I come from they say that the proof of the pudding is in the eating – there are something like 1 billion + muslims in the world and there contribution to science as measured in noble prizes is poor, the Jews at around 15 million have loads

en.wikipedia.org...
en.wikipedia.org...


why do you think that is?

Unfortunately, that would imply that number of noble(sic) prizes each religion gets is somehow indicative of the "intelligence" of that religion, while discounting all other variables, never mind the initial (and monumentous) contribution of Islam to the sciences that even your video speaks of. It is an interesting question you ask, and the answer is surely very complicated (complacency, colonialism, wars, poverty even yes, foreign intervention) but I'd say outside of the scope of this thread.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by logical7

 

Its interesting that you are against capital punishment but believe in reincarnation, wouldnt capital punishment be a great lesson for the soul of the killer.

It is not up to other PEOPLE to be judge and jury in karma, though.
It's up to the Source - or Creator - or the karmic dimension..."poetic justice" is not the same as inflicted punishment on purpose....
Like I've said, I don't have all the answers.

Good point.

thanx.
Actually its up to people to uphold justice, truth and equality.
Isnt watching that being denied makes you angry?
Isnt it a responsibility of people to stand up against oppression.
Qur'an surah 4

135. O you who believe! Stand firmly for justice, as witnesses to God, even if
against yourselves, or your parents, or
your relatives. Whether one is rich or
poor, God takes care of both. So do
not follow your desires, lest you
swerve. If you deviate, or turn away— then God is Aware of what you do.

logical7

thats because they hate a culture thats not their own and think theirs better,

That explains why they might, say, attack cultural icons of the hated culture that isn't their own. It doesn't help much with understanding why a schoolchild is attacked for seeking a basic education in her own homeland.

Surely there's nothing in math, reading, writing, science, history, geography, health, ... that could possibly pose a threat to any culture, least of all threaten a culture which boasts of its centuries of accomplishments in all these areas of knowledge.

I so appreciate that you dont think that way.

No, I don't think that way. I am glad that that comes through in my posting, and that you appreciate it. However, the same impulse that makes me recoil from senseless violence on a massive scale also makes me recoil from senseless violence on a personal scale.

generally ... a point about deists

First, I am not a deist, so I am not advocating their views. I do respect their views, however, and think that their views, like Muslim views or anybody else's, should be portrayed fairly.

It is not that deists are unaware of the Abrahamic revelations, and certainly not that they are "proud" of their "ignorance" about them. Rather, the God which typical deists believe in doesn't choose human representatives to speak on God's behalf. Not ever.

This is a fundamental disagreement between Islam and deism, as fundamental as there can be between two groups who each confess a supreme being. That both groups respect "natural theology" tells me that both groups have noticed that human beings are endowed with reason, something they share with many other individuals and groups, including folks who have no gods.

So, if someone were to say "Deists don't care what's in the Koran," then they must mean that "Deists don't look to the Koran for information about God." However, like any thinking person, a deist may "care about" the Koran in other senses, including having an interest in comparative religion, or in world literature, or the simple wish to understand a billion fellow humans' thinking.

reply to post by eight bits

Hey eightbits!

Again, I haven't been keeping up with the discussion you've been having with logical, but insofar as your last post goes, if we get into specifics, Islam is all for education and learning (and that is putting it mildly). There is nothing in Islam that could be construed as being against education for women, in fact, the opposite: There is a tradition of Muhammad where he specifically says that girls should be educated as well, and if the girl is in danger for going out for learning, she should be taken with protection.

The latter part of your post, if you'll excuse me for jumping to conclusions, seems to be somewhat directed at me, especially considering the wording you used that I had used, so I hope you don't mind me addressing it.

I am, of course, aware of deism's rejection of revelations as a source of knowledge of God. It just seemed odd to me where when logical was posting some information with verses from the Quran, and pointing out its similarity to deism's understanding of how evidence of a higher power can be found in nature, he got a response akin to "Deists don't care". I figured he also understood this statement to be a condensed version of what you yourself are saying, i.e. "Deists don't look to the Koran for information about God", so he said:

Originally posted by logical7
i am not asking a deist to take an 'alleged revelation' as revelation, i am pointing out to the valid arguements in the revelation that appeal to common sense and reasoning which deist consider supreme.

But then when the same statement was again repeated several times, i.e. "deists as a rule could care less what it says in some theists book", you'll understand my confusion and desire to clarify?

reply to post by wildtimes

Hey again, wildtimes! Seeing your response here then seeing where you addressed some questions for me before that I unfortunately missed, I figured I should respond to them, even though logical7 already somewhat addressed them. Suffice it to say that Islam certainly isn't against education, even for women (see my response to eight bits above). The Taliban are hardly beacons of Islamic understanding, in fact, I'd go on to say that quite a bit of what they say and do is contrary to Islam. Unfortunately, such incidents (or at least incidents in a similar vein) are not unusual where the Taliban hold sway...there are forced closings of schools by them, threats of violence if girls go to school, etc. However, I reiterate, this is not islamic.

Originally posted by babloyi
reply to post by racasan

 

Good on you, but your previous statements suggested that such investigation is useless and irrelevant, depending on your belief system (i.e. the "X couldn't care less about what it says" stuff). What I have been trying to say since then is that such an approach to learning and knowledge is deeply ignorant and detrimental.

Given that the quran debunks its self by making the grand claim that its ghost written by the creator of the universe but then talks about a flat earth and so on means that nobody is obliged to take anything its says as serious

Unfortunately, that would imply that number of noble(sic) prizes each religion gets is somehow indicative of the "intelligence" of that religion, while discounting all other variables, never mind the initial (and monumentous) contribution of Islam to the sciences that even your video speaks of. It is an interesting question you ask, and the answer is surely very complicated (complacency, colonialism, wars, poverty even yes, foreign intervention) but I'd say outside of the scope of this thread.

Well I agree that the situation is complicated but one very possible reason that islam stopped muslims advancing in science is that science has disproven the quran – to me it looks like you can have islam or science but not both

reply to post by racasan

Originally posted by racasan
Given that the quran debunks its self by making the grand claim that its ghost written by the creator of the universe but then talks about a flat earth and so on means that nobody is obliged to take anything its says as serious

I would ask you to point out where it says such a thing, but then when you would and it'd be something saying the opposite, you would say that your understanding of it makes it look like it says the earth is flat, and then the discussion would come to another standstill.

Originally posted by racasan
Well I agree that the situation is complicated but one very possible reason that islam stopped muslims advancing in science is that science has disproven the quran – to me it looks like you can have islam or science but not both

Hundreds of thousands of devout muslim scientists (who you seem to discount for not being nobel laureates) as well as millions of devout muslim science students would disagree with you.

Originally posted by babloyi
reply to post by racasan
I would ask you to point out where it says such a thing, but then when you would and it'd be something saying the opposite,

I guess we are just going to have to agree to disagree about that

Originally posted by racasan
Hundreds of thousands of devout muslim scientists (who you seem to discount for not being nobel laureates) as well as millions of devout muslim science students would disagree with you.

edit on 3-1-2013 by babloyi because: (no reason given)

Ah but do we actually know how devout they are?

reply to post by racasan

Having worked in and with many universities with lots of muslim faculty, and having seen it firsthand, had discussions with them (boy did they love their philosophical discussions), I'd say quite a lot of them.

reply to post by logical7

Actually its up to people to uphold justice, truth and equality.
Isnt watching that being denied makes you angry?

Yes, that's what makes me angry. However, the "death-penalty" is still barbaric....
what the world needs is EDUCATION and OPPORTUNITY...

Social issues are the main problem. As long as one "group" sees fit to hold others down - whether it's Corporate Oligarchs, or Dictator governments, or Taliban, or the Westboro Baptist Church makes no difference to me. They are all equally infringing on the basic rights of humanity -
for food, shelter, water, clean air, education, clothing, and compassion for those who are different.

Cultural Competency is SO IMPORTANT.

I want to thank you, and babloyi, and all the others who have helped us "Westerners" to understand better what YOUR perspectives are. I've been here going on 2 years now, and I have learned a LOT, about many different "belief systems."

It's the condemnation and "putting to death" that I protest. Not justice and equality and truth. But all religions miss a part of the TRUTH, as we have discussed. It's not hard to sully one group's reputation, or to glorify another -
but on the bottom line, we need to be able to UNDERSTAND each other's point of view, and not "punish" or "kill" or maim or point out the worst specimens as the "whole" of that group.

On the other hand, we MUST insist that those who want to silence others, and instead only promote hate and insist on narrow-minded misunderstanding, who injure and maim and condemn others, to STOP IT! Even if they feel they are "right", when the people watching them say, "Hey!! Hold on a minute!! That's not right, it's not fair, and it's not OKAY!"

That said, I still have issues with ANY sort of mythology or legend claiming to have "facts." Because they don't.
No amount of arguing or persuading or debating makes "myths" true.

I have come to the point of compassion for Islam, and my earnest desire to be aware of the "peaceable" parts of it.

So, HOW would YOU deal with Hamas, the Taliban, the rockets between Israel and Gaza, the threat of global "sharia law" of the most militant kind.????

What are MUSLIMS doing to stop those atrocities?

Westerners try to sanction our "own" who are beastly, backward, and violent. Does Islam have an actual way to round up these extremists and chasten them into STOPPING? Or do you WANT them all nuked??

I'm not being a smartass; really want to know how Islam feels about dealing with the extremists.
Just as Christianity has rejected the Westboro Baptist Church as freaks, and stands together to stop them from disrupting people's lives with their rabid hatred and INSANITY.

Hi, babloyi

You and I seem to agree that historically, Islam has been justifiably associated with learning, preservation of knowledge, and advances in both theory and skilled practices. Maybe, then, there is an opportunity for dialog within Islam about what the authentic tradition actually is. It may be especially urgent to discuss that tradition as it relates to educating women and girls.

As to deism and Islam, it wan't my intention to single you out. I think that the thread as a whole may have gotten off on a wrong foot. Natural theology is found in many religious movements and in some "irreligious" movements as well. The role of natural theology within a revealed context would be a great topic, and deism would fairly come up somewhere within the topic.

However, to put the spotlight on deism, and deism alone, as the representative of natural theology was unfortunate. Deism is not just the application of natural theology, something in which it is not alone, but also has the distinction of outrightly rejecting revelation as a source of knowledge of God.

The Koran may very well celebrate natural theology, even as it respects reason in other senses, too. But the Koran cannot celebrate a religious perspective whose distinguishing feature implies that the Koran is not, contrary to its own plain text, the word of God. That isn't the same as a holder of that perspective having no interest in the Koran whatsoever, but it is a difference that cannot be compromised or discussed away. The spotlight, then, was pointed in the wrong place.

reply to post by wildtimes

That said, I still have issues with ANY sort of mythology or legend claiming to have "facts." Because they don't. No amount of arguing or persuading or debating makes "myths" true. I have come to the point of compassion for Islam, and my earnest desire to be aware of the "peaceable" parts of it.

a 'myth' is no better than baseless 'conjenctures' and the same argument applies to them.
Compassion is good.
And "peaceable" parts? That just means that the MSM got to you at some level. Islam is peaceful but not peaceful to the extent of being coward.
Maybe you know history, who made taliban, hamas? And now FSA? Who is giving the extremists power and weapons to serve their own selfish goals? Broadly its a proxy war between superpowers sprinkled with their own creations turning rogue. The rogues are labeled terrorists but when good puppets then they are anti-soviet heroes(OBL/taliban), FREE syrian army(Al-Qaeda).
There is more voilence in Bible but if the superpowers used christian extremists, their majority christian subjects wouldnt take that easily but that backward 7th century Islam about which they are already ignorant is perfect for exploitation.
.
If you see the events above and see them as voilent parts in islam then you are not seeing the whole picture.
In short just because some players in these conflicts are muslims, doesnt mean that they represent islam. America attacked Afghanistan to liberate the women and bring justice to all. Really?? God, peace, justice are the most abused words to hide selfish interests.
You are welcome to know more about Islam and i'l love to tell you anything you want to know.
But i'l suggest that you also inquire about the parts that you dont consider peaceful. Maybe they are not as you think.

reply to post by wildtimes

Hey wildtimes!

Thanks for your response! I'll be the first to admit that Islam doesn't shy away from the death penalty, BUT it requires a proper system of justice in place, you can't have random people meting out death sentences if they feel that something unislamic is going on. Also, there are several traditions of Muhammad that impose "innocent until proven guilty" to an extreme that it could be "innocent until there isn't any sliver of possibility that they're anything BUT guilty". There is a hadith that it is better for there to be a mistake made in granting someone innocence rather than a mistake in them being said guilty. Another tradition states that it is better that a 100 (some versions say 1000) guilty people get set free rather than one innocent person be punished.

As for your question as to how muslims should deal with these extremists, you might not know, but they already are. I believe that there is a statistic that 80% of the radicals caught by the FBI in the US are by the help of a muslim person reporting them. In fact, an agent provocateur was discovered after a muslim reported them to the FBI for radical behaviour (when the FBI was the one who had put him there...talk about trust). I've linked before on ATS the (literally) thousands and thousands of religious groups and leaders who condemn terrorism and radicalism.

And I hate to bring up the blame game, I really hate it because it attempts to simplify things to one side or the other, when honestly it is never TOTALLY one side's fault. For example, these splinter extremists groups always existed in Islamic society, and they had their peaks and troughs, but they were usually marginalised and sidelined in any place that mattered. However, due to interference from outside forces:
- Saudis regained power when they allied with the British who wanted them as a force against the Turks
- The Taliban gained power because the US trained and stoked their religious zeal as a weapon against Communist Russia.
- Hamas gained power through the help of Israel who wanted someone to be able to counter Fatah (and now they're used as an excuse for continued attacks)
- The Iranian regime gained power when the US brought down the democratically elected Iranian government and tried replacing it with a puppet shah.

Now I admit, these outside forces wouldn't have been able to do such things if such sentiment didn't already exist in society (in whatever small amount), so the responsibility lies on the society as well. I'd say there are 2 main things to fight in this regard...the money and influence of these extremist groups, and the ignorance of the people they're targetting. In response to that, I'd say that the solution is education, and I believe that slowly but surely, that will work (you can already see how the Taliban are terrified of that).

Another thing would be to break down the divide between "Us" and "Them". You participate in that too, probably unconsciously with your dividing it into "us westerners" and "you muslims". I'm muslim, but I'm also a "westerner" (not from the US, though). In the US, muslims make an admittedly small percentage of the total population (estimates go from less than 1% to almost 2%), but then again, jews make up barely 2% as well, and nobody doubts their influence on what the United States are. And the claim that it is all just "immigrants flooding our country" is fairly false (although if it wasn't, so what? The US is a country made up of immigrants)- did you know that almost a third of the slaves brought over from Africa were muslim?
I'm not picking on you, of course..there is a wider issue at play, with certain groups trying to demonise or "other"ise muslims, like this "global shariah threat" thing you brought up. I've discussed it before, and it is total hogwash... In fact, I'd say there is more chances of the US turning into a "Christian Law" country (although probably not for the next 4 years) than Islamic Shariah state.

Now of course, again, it isn't all only one side's fault. There are these fringe groups that you could pick up and claim to be proof that it is all evil. But then it all spirals out of control from there..one side says the other is evil, the other side says "Look, they're calling us evil, they must be evil", and an unending cycle is then set in place. Again, I'd say education and learning about the different sides is an important way to break out of this.


reply to post by eight bits

Hey eightbits!

Don't worry, I didn't feel targeted, we're all just having a conversation here. I suppose the OP could've used some other belief system as an example, but I'd say that Deism is somewhat the poster child for natural theology. Aside from that, yes, I suppose this all came down to a misunderstanding (or misuse) of words involving "not caring" about what is written. That particular mix-up wasn't directed at you, but If the error is on my side, I apologise. I just read it how I saw it, since the OP presented the information as an "check out this interesting stuff you may possibly not have known about, where Islam has a similar view to that of deism". I suppose using the term "natural theology" would've been more appropriate, but again, I may be putting words in his mouth, but it seemed to me to be part of a whole "look how we're similar" thing, that worked better with an actual "religious" group.

babloyi,
and logical7,

You two have really helped me in seeing the picture better.
I was really not aware of much going on in the "Middle East" until after Sept 11 2001 --
and there is no question in my mind that MSM, governments, and politics are behind MUCH of the misunderstandings between Islam and non-Muslims.

I learn more every day about the history, culture, beliefs, and thoughts of you all who so generously and openly share yourselves here on ATS.

It amazes me to realize how little I paid attention to political matters at "state" levels (in terms of countries, not just states of one country) as a younger adult. In fact, it wasn't until I became a parent 24 years ago that I even paid attention to domestic "politics", and another 10 years after that before I began to study "in earnest" the social ills and psychology of our "global civilization".

I guess I'm much more focused on the day to day goings-on between actual citizens of various countries. I have been around "foreigners" all my life; I went to a major university that attracts people from all over the world;
my social circle in college - about 12 or so of us who hung out together very regularly - included, among others, an Egyptian, a Pakistani, and an Indian; also Caucasian Americans, Hispanic, African-American, etc. We were all friends with each other (even the Middle-Easterners; the Pakistani and Indian were roommates), and with us. I just didn't care about world politics. These were my friends; they were fascinating and "exotic", yet just regular college-age kids studying typical coursework.

I worked with the Hispanic community in the USA for YEARS, in their homes, or in my office, or in groups, or at schools; and the vast majority of them were good, honest, hardworking, clean, kind people. When all the fuss about "Fast and Furious" broke headlines, I didn't know what the hell they were talking about. (Still don't, to be honest - I gather it has something to do with drug cartels, violence, and covert assistance with guns going over the border due to the US government decisions??)

And frankly, sometimes I don't WANT to know. It's overwhelming.

People are, I believe, mostly just wanting to live their lives, earn their keep, raise their kids (or reach adulthood and become contributing members of society), and mind their own business.

In my profession, I always held out that Everyone is Doing Their Best at all times, even if to others it appears they are disturbed, lazy, ignorant, militant, fanatical, addicted, or whatever. What worries me is how that "personal best" can become SO WARPED due to lack of perspective and education;
or due to timely and destructive "indoctrination" (brainwashing, if you want) on the part of powerful people who see someone to take advantage of.

Anyway, just rambling. Thanks again for your contributions to my understanding!!

(Oh, and by "westerners", I mean people who were not brought up with "oriental" culture....please excuse me if I sounded "superior" or whatever -- I don't think that at all. In fact, I think America is pretty screwed up, arrogant, bullyish, and controlling. I think we should just BUTT OUT of the rest of the world until our own "house" is in order, and God and the entire world knows, IT IS NOT. It's a mess.)

~wild