What Qur'an says about Deism.

reply to post by logical7


ok what part of the sky needs holding up?

Maybe if you are a 7th century Arab who thinks the sky is a canopy
www.islamawakened.com...
www.islamawakened.com...
www.islamawakened.com...

a canopy that might get a tear in it
www.islamawakened.com...

then maybe you might think the sky need invisible pillars (or forces)

reply to post by logical7


like eight bits says you are stuck trying to fix your book

Arab guys view was based on the Quran the other guy was saying what >science< now knows is going on

reply to post by babloyi


I have given you my honest assessment of the Quran and like it or not it does say what I said it says

I can only take the text at its face value

if you want me to cut the quran some slack then why not everybody else’s book

ancienthistory.about.com...
why pick your myth over any of these?

I'm honestly not asking you to "cut the Quran some slack", was more of "don't read it with a biased presumption", but I don't know how you're reading into it..I dunno, perhaps it is personal, I just don't read it that way...it clearly says to me the sky is NOT being help up by pillars.

And I didn't ask you not to cut some slack for other belief systems either. Read them up if you like. Belief in the Quran (or any other scripture) doesn't really hinge on cutting some slack.

The OP was speaking about Islam's shared opinion with one of the central ideas in deism, that God can be acknowledged through observation of reality and nature. That isn't ALL that the Quran says about God, and the other stuff wasn't really the subject of the thread, but yeah, sure, it exists.

Originally posted by racasan
reply to post by logical7

 

like eight bits says you are stuck trying to fix your book

Arab guys view was based on the Quran the other guy was saying what >science< now knows is going on

edit on 29-12-2012 by racasan because: (no reason given)

i am not stuck trying to fix anything, i m just trying to share my views with you, doesnt mean you have to change yours. But do you consider your view as objective??

Originally posted by babloyi
The OP was speaking about Islam's shared opinion with one of the central ideas in deism, that God can be acknowledged through observation of reality and nature. That isn't ALL that the Quran says about God, and the other stuff wasn't really the subject of the thread, but yeah, sure, it exists.

yes that’s fine and as I said before I am happy that he did – and it gave me the opportunity to explore why deists as a rule could care less what it say in some theists book

reply to post by logical7



do you mean objective as in searching for truth
as opposed to
subjective as in individual feelings/imaginings/interpretations

then yes I think I am being objective

reply to post by racasan

yes that’s fine and as I said before I am happy that he did – and it gave me the opportunity to explore why deists as a rule could care less what it say in some theists book

a deist's stand on any book being worthless is also just an idea.
Nothing superior to what theists believe.
A theist also could care less about what a deist believes.
But if thats your stand then why are you even posting anything here? Breaking your own stand?

reply to post by racasan

But who is saying deists as a rule could care less what it says in some theist's book? Nobody but you. It certainly isn't a part of the deists err.....theology (for lack of a better word). Just like it isn't part of the theology of another religion what is written in that book. Doesn't mean it isn't interesting and useful information. Are you saying that deists are against reading about the beliefs of other people who don't follow what they follow? A rejection of a belief system isn't the same as a rejection of gain in knowledge about people and religions.

It'd be like if in a thread about "Jesus in Islam" (like someone started in this subforum a while back) someone responded "Why would we care about Jesus in Islam? Islam is false, so we don't care what it says!"...it seems a bit ignorant, and perhaps confusing sharing of knowledge with evangelism.

I don't believe (again, my interpretation of the OP) that the OP was in any way suggesting "Islam has a similar view of the world to this aspect of deism, therefore deists should follow Islam". What I understood it as was "Islam has a similar view of the world to this aspect of deism".

Originally posted by racasan
reply to post by logical7

 

do you mean objective as in searching for truth
as opposed to
subjective as in individual feelings/imaginings/interpretations

then yes I think I am being objective

searching for truth? or approching a book already thinking you know the truth better? If you already have a preformed idea of God and you think that you are better equiped to comprehend God then obviously you are assuming that you are capable of that task.

reply to post by babloyi

(all this leading back to the importance and focus islam gives to education and learning and even partly to what became the basis of empirical science).

Hiya, babloyi....
your post above is very interesting indeed.

Can you help me understand, if education and learning and even "empirical science" are important to Islam,
why that young girl was shot in the face just for walking to school?

These are the events that the non-Muslim world cannot comprehend as being acceptable -
much like the stonings that go on...

The question of "Why would deists care?" seems to be a bit naive and short-sighted, though, I think. Why would anyone care? Why do we discuss anything at all? Why talk to Christians about Hinduism or to Buddhists about Judaism? Everyone already has their views, and shouldn't care anything about anything else, right? Wrong. Learning and understanding the other side is what ATS is about, and occasionally along the way, you learn something that might resonate with you, and while it won't change your world view, you'll be better for it.

I am in complete agreement with this point that we should all care. Yes, ATS is about understanding one another, and getting past MSM and "stereotyped" impressions.

I understand that the media sensationalize these events; just have they have done with the horrible Sandy Hook massacre....
do you understand how it is hard for non-Muslims to reconcile your statement about education being important, but keeping women not only "covered up" but, "uneducated", and not even allowed to speak to men to whom they are not related?

Are these incidents actually rare? Or are they occurring every day in the Middle East?

I want to understand it. Thanks for your contribution here.
~wild

reply to post by babloyi

I don't believe (again, my interpretation of the OP) that the OP was in any way suggesting "Islam has a similar view of the world to this aspect of deism, therefore deists should follow Islam". What I understood it as was "Islam has a similar view of the world to this aspect of deism".

exactly what i meant. Thank you for clearing that up, i expected it to be obvious but i was wrong.

reply to post by wildtimes

Can you help me understand, if education and learning and even "empirical science" are important to Islam, why that young girl was shot in the face just for walking to school? These are the events that the non- Muslim world cannot comprehend as being acceptable - much like the stonings that go on...

let me say something however i would also like babloyi's response.
.
Islam puts a lot of stress on learning. Education is important as prophet Muhammad said to go to china if required to seek knowledge.
Now about taliban shooting that girl, this is what i think, taliban very narrow mindedly thinks that "secular"education comes in package with western/american culture and that it will lead to destruction of values that are upheld in islam. They think that the girl seeking education wants to become a mini-skirt wearing, tatooed, colour haired, gum munching teen.
They start to feel she is against islam and going to "enemy" camp.
They are very wrong ofcourse.
But i would like to know what you meant by 'stoning that go on..' ??
The non-muslim world cant comprehend it because of sheer ignorance. And they dont feel a need to know the truth themselves of what MSM tells them.
are you curious about sharia laws in criminal offences or already judged them as barbaric?
Its a difference between two systems. The non-muslim world tries to comprehend it with standards of their system and obviously fails.

They think that the girl seeking education wants to become a mini-skirt wearing, tatooed, colour haired, gum munching teen.

And that would be wrong for the girl to want, because...?

That she might want that would be any of their business, because...?

The appropriate precaution against her wanting this is to spray acid in her face, because...?

Originally posted by eight bits

They think that the girl seeking education wants to become a mini-skirt wearing, tatooed, colour haired, gum munching teen.

And that would be wrong for the girl to want, because...?

That she might want that would be any of their business, because...?

The appropriate precaution against her wanting this is to spray acid in her face, because...?

thats because they hate a culture thats not their own and think theirs better, that they have a superior system and they will protect it just like some idiots who think nuking middle east would be good to eradicate all those backward bloodthirsty muzzies.
I so appreciate that you dont think that way.

reply to post by logical7

But i would like to know what you meant by 'stoning that go on..' ??
The non-muslim world cant comprehend it because of sheer ignorance. And they dont feel a need to know the truth themselves of what MSM tells them.
are you curious about sharia laws in criminal offences or already judged them as barbaric?
Its a difference between two systems. The non-muslim world tries to comprehend it with standards of their system and obviously fails.

Remember we talked earlier about finding the "common denominator"? Humanity must strive to understand one another; and to eradicate such outrageous atrocities that Taliban (or whoever) thinks are "appropriate."

I've looked at "sharia law", yes, and tried not to let the obvious "slant" of the MSM or advertising campaigns taint my understanding of it.

"What 'stoning'"?, you ask ...

Iran: Four women stoned to death Nov 2012
This one includes a statement saying:

ews of stoning of these four women have been published while in the October 4, 2012, Allahyar Malekshahi, Law and Justice Committee chairman of Islamic Consultative Assembly (the Parliament) had spoke of determining alternative punishment for "stoning" in the new bill of "Islamic Penal Code"....

Islamists: Two stoned to death in Mali Aug 2012 This one by "extremists" who are terrorizing Mali with unduly harsh "sharia law".

Death by Stoning

History: Stoning is arguably the world's oldest form of execution. It is as old as written literature, and the most common death penalty described in the Bible (prompting Jesus' famous anti-death penalty statement in John 8.7: "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone"). Although it has never been a legal form of execution in the United States, it is practiced elsewhere in the world, primarily in the Middle East and sub-Saharan Africa.

So a simple "Google" for "stoned to death" and you get pages and pages of hits. This happens regularly.
Here is a list from wiki page on Moden incidences of Stoning

Modern
Soraya Manutchehri, 1986, stoned to death in Iran after unconfirmed accusations of adultery
Mahboubeh M. And Abbas H,at Behest-e Zahra cemetery, southern Teheran, Iran, 2006.The public was not invited to the stoning, and the incident was not reported to the media, however it was spread by word to mouth to a journalist and womans rights activist. The activist gathered information and further exposed the happening to the world. In response to this, several women's rights activists, lawyers and members of the Networks of Volunteers went on to form the Stop Stoning Forever campaign to stop stoning in Iran.
Du’a Khalil Aswad, 2007, a 17-year-old stoned to death in Iraq
Jafar Kiani, in Agche - kand, a small village near Takestan, Iran, 2007.
Sara Jaffar Nimat, aged 11, in the town of Khanaqin, Iraqi Kurdistan, 2007. She had been hit by bricks and stones, and burnt.
Aisha Ibrahim Duhulow, aged 13 in Kismayo, Somalia, 2008.
Kurdistan Aziz, aged 16, Iraqi Kurdistan, 2008. She had been stoned in an act of "Honour" - killing.
Shano and Daulat Khan Malikdeenkhe, in Khwezai - Baezai area, Pakistan, 2008
Solange Medina, 2009, a 20 year old stoned to death in Juárez, Mexico[46]
Vali Azad, 30, in Gilan province, Iran, 2009.
Gustavo Santoro, 2010, a small town mayor in Mexico believed to have been murdered by stoning[47]
Murray Seidman, 2011, a 70 year old senior in Philadelphia, stoned to death by 28 year old John Thomas after allegedly making sexual advances towards the younger man. Thomas' defence is that he did it because The Bible says to kill homosexuals.[48]

Then there is this page FAQs about Stoning from violenceisnotourculture.org

Shouldn’t we just accept stoning as part of someone’s culture and their right to freedom of belief?

There is no excuse for the killing of women in the name of any ‘religion’, ‘culture’ or ‘tradition’. ‘Religion’ and ‘culture’ cannot and must not be invoked as excuse for the killing of women, because religion and the laws which derive from it are always subjective interpretations. Culture is not static, but constantly re-created and re-defined by the various interests of groups in positions of power in a society at any given time.
...No ‘culture’ has the right to kill and harm women based on their perceptions of morality or honour. The freedom of belief does not mean freedom to kill. Stoning is a brutal example of how culture and religion are being misused to perpetuate violence against women.

I see that it happens in certain Muslim countries and not others; that it is supported by some "traditionalists" and condemned by other Muslims...
How is the Muslim world in general trying to eradicate it?
Capital punishment is horrible. That said, humanity still practices it, at individual and societal (genocidal) levels.


I don't have the answers, but I certainly want to understand what is being done to stop it.
I saw a great sign once:
"Why do we kill people who kill people to show that killing people is wrong?"
These stonings weren't carried out as punishment for killing people, though.

Originally posted by babloyi
reply to post by racasan

 

But who is saying deists as a rule could care less what it says in some theist's book? Nobody but you.

en.wikipedia.org...

Deism is the belief that reason and observation of the natural world are sufficient to determine the existence of God, accompanied with the rejection of revelation and authority as a source of religious knowledge

so me and every body else says deists don’t care what it says in a theist's book

It'd be like if in a thread about "Jesus in Islam" .

www.jesusneverexisted.com...

I don't believe (again, my interpretation of the OP) that the OP was in any way suggesting "Islam has a similar view of the world to this aspect of deism, therefore deists should follow Islam". What I understood it as was "Islam has a similar view of the world to this aspect of deism".

edit on 29-12-2012 by babloyi because: (no reason given)

edit on 29-12-2012 by babloyi because: (no reason given)

But its can be shown that islam does not have that view


Tell us about the Muslim noble prize winners?

How come Spain translates more books in just one year than have been translated in to Arabic in the last thousand years?

the total number of books translated into Arabic during the 1,000 years since the age of Caliph Al-Ma’moun [a ninth-century Arab ruler who was a patron of cultural interaction between Arab, Persian, and Greek scholars] to this day is less than those translated in Spain in one year”

www.worldpress.org...

so what happened to islam, here’s what Neil DeGrasse Tyson thinks (its all good but 3:50 on)

reply to post by racasan

Hey racasan!

I get the feeling you really did not understand my point. Having a certain theological or idealogical view does not necessitate or require ignorance of all other views, in fact, knowledge of other views strengthens the original views (or destroys it if it is wrong, so either way, good). So just because a person may not believe in Islam, doesn't mean they should be proud of not knowing about it. I hope you understand that that is utter idiocy and literally the definition of ignorance.

Originally posted by racasan

I don't believe (again, my interpretation of the OP) that the OP was in any way suggesting "Islam has a similar view of the world to this aspect of deism, therefore deists should follow Islam". What I understood it as was "Islam has a similar view of the world to this aspect of deism".

edit on 29-12-2012 by babloyi because: (no reason given)

edit on 29-12-2012 by babloyi because: (no reason given)

But its can be shown that islam does not have that view

What on earth does Ghazali and muslim nobel laureates have to do with whether Islam has that view, considering that the OP quoted (and I paraphrased) passages from the Islamic scripture that show it does?

reply to post by wildtimes


i can say that the people stoning women for 'adultery' are no better than the jews who brought a woman to Jesus pbuh for the same.
The law requires 4 eye witnesses for the 'act' who watched it.
Thats almost impossible. And if no witnesses and the woman denies it, she cant be punished.
Also where is the partner?
Thats just misusing the law on the weaker section.

How is the Muslim world in general
trying to eradicate it?

muslim world will try to prevent misuse. But maybe you dont know what sharia means to a muslim. It is not a law made in parliament that can be changed by majority votes.

I saw a great sign once:
"Why do we kill people who kill
people to show that killing people is
wrong?"

maybe to tell potential killers that better dont do it or it would bring instant karma.
Also to do justice to the family of the victim.
And ya, i think killing 'innocent' people is wrong.
Its interesting that you are against capital punishment but believe in reincarnation, wouldnt capital punishment be a great lesson for the soul of the killer.

reply to post by logical7

Its interesting that you are against capital punishment but believe in reincarnation, wouldnt capital punishment be a great lesson for the soul of the killer.

It is not up to other PEOPLE to be judge and jury in karma, though.
It's up to the Source - or Creator - or the karmic dimension..."poetic justice" is not the same as inflicted punishment on purpose....
Like I've said, I don't have all the answers.

Good point.