What Qur'an says about Deism.

Qur'an Surah 6

..95. It is God Who splits the grain and the seed. He brings the living from the
dead, and He brings the dead from the
living. Such is God. So how could you
deviate? 96. It is He Who breaks the dawn. And He made the night for rest, and the sun
and the moon for calculation. Such is
the disposition of the Almighty, the All-
Knowing. 97. And it is He Who created the stars for you, that you may be guided by
them in the darkness of land and sea.
We thus explain the revelations for
people who know. 98. And it is He who produced you from a single person, then a
repository, then a depository. We have
detailed the revelations for people
who understand. 99. And it is He who sends down water from the sky. With it We produce
vegetation of all kinds, from which We
bring greenery, from which We
produce grains in clusters. And palm-
trees with hanging clusters, and
vineyards, and olives, and pomegranates—similar and dissimilar.
Watch their fruits as they grow and
ripen. Surely in this are signs for
people who believe. 100. Yet they attributed to God partners—the sprites—although He
created them. And they invented for
Him sons and daughters, without any
knowledge. Glory be to Him. He is
exalted, beyond what they describe. 101. Originator of the heavens and the earth—how can He have a son when
He never had a companion? He
created all things, and He has
knowledge of all things. 102. Such is God, your Lord. There is no god except He, the Creator of all
things; so worship Him. He is
responsible for everything. 103. No vision can grasp Him, but His grasp is over all vision. He is the Subtle,
the Expert. 104. “Insights have come to you from your Lord. Whoever sees, it is to the
benefit of his soul; and whoever
remains blind, it is to its detriment. I am
not a guardian over you.” 105. We thus diversify the revelations, lest they say, “You have studied,” and
to clarify them for people who know...

note that its not necessary to "study" to know God. And even the creation is called revelation also the verses are called signs like things in nature.

reply to post by logical7


From a Muslim stand point,

If I live a decent life as a Christian,

Am I doomed by Allah?

Originally posted by godlover25
reply to post by logical7

 

From a Muslim stand point,

If I live a decent life as a Christian,

Am I doomed by Allah?

Qur'an Surah 3

75. Among the People of the Book is he, who, if you entrust him with a
heap of gold, he will give it back to
you. And among them is he, who, if
you entrust him with a single coin, he
will not give it back to you, unless you
keep after him. That is because they say, “We are under no obligation
towards the gentiles.” They tell lies
about God, and they know it. 76. Indeed, whoever fulfills his commitments and maintains piety—
God loves the pious. 77. Those who exchange the covenant of God, and their vows, for a
small price, will have no share in the
Hereafter, and God will not speak to
them, nor will He look at them on the
Day of Resurrection, nor will He purify
them. They will have a painful punishment. 78. And among them are those who twist the Scripture with their tongues,
that you may think it from the
Scripture, when it is not from the
Scripture. And they say, “It is from
God,” when it is not from God. They tell
lies and attribute them to God, knowingly. 79. No person to whom God has given the Scripture, and wisdom, and
prophethood would ever say to the
people, “Be my worshipers rather than
God’s.” Rather, “Be people of the Lord,
according to the Scripture you teach,
and the teachings you learn.” 80. Nor would he command you to take the angels and the prophets as
lords. Would he command you to
infidelity after you have submitted?

Surah 5

68. Say, “O People of the Scripture! You have no basis until you uphold the
Torah, and the Gospel, and what is
revealed to you from your Lord.” But
what is revealed to you from your
Lord will increase many of them in
rebellion and disbelief, so do not be sorry for the disbelieving people. 69. Those who believe, and the Jews, and the Sabians, and the Christians—
whoever believes in God and the Last
Day, and does what is right—they
have nothing to fear, nor shall they
grieve.

116. And God will say, “O Jesus son of Mary, did you say to the people, `Take
me and my mother as gods rather
than God?'“ He will say, “Glory be to
You! It is not for me to say what I have
no right to. Had I said it, You would
have known it. You know what is in my soul, and I do not know what is in
your soul. You are the Knower of the
hidden. 117. I only told them what You commanded me: that you shall
worship God, my Lord and your Lord.
And I was a witness over them while I
was among them; but when You took
me to Yourself, you became the
Watcher over them—You are Witness over everything. 118. If You punish them, they are Your servants; but if You forgive them, You
are the Mighty and Wise.” 119. God will say, “This is a Day when the truthful will benefit from their
truthfulness.” They will have Gardens
beneath which rivers flow, wherein
they will remain forever. God is
pleased with them, and they are
pleased with Him. That is the great attainment. 120. To God belongs the sovereignty of the heavens and the earth and what
lies in them, and He has power over
everything.

reply to post by logical7


Thank you

Allah also says that a sign for the believers is the dead earth after that we give it life. By Allah this is completely true, Thank you for pointing it out with some verses. Though to understand the whole story, One has to read the rest of the verses.

Peace be upon you.

It is interesting to see that there is Koranic support for what is called "natural theology," that is, conclusions about the existence and character of a supernatural creator made by natural observation and reflection. All the Abrhamic religions have some supplementary role for natural theology. Nevertheless, they are all revealed religions, and the principal source of their doctrines is, in each case, some set of texts held to be inspired or even written by God, who is the subject of the revelations contained in the texts (or, at least, revelations extracted from the texts by pious readers).

Deism, as the term is usually applied, is the product of natural theology exclusively. There is no revealed component in deism, and the typical deist stance would be to deny any and all doctrines derived solely from purported revelation. The rejection of revelation is fully consistent with the deists' (usual) rejection of any intervention whatsoever by the Creator in space and time, after the creation act itself.

Ironically, some forms of atheism and some forms of agnosticism are also fairly described as the product of "natural theology." It's just that the atheists and agnostics reach different conclusion about the question of God than deists, just as deists reach different conclusions than adherents of the revealed religions do.

So, the title of the thread might be a little confusing. Deists would not look to any revealed work for additional information about God, nor would God being quoted as approving of natural theology add anything to a deist's confidence in the inferences they find in it. Conversely, few adherents of any of the revealed religions would likely be comfortable with the outright rejection of the authority of their favorite revelation, which is the typical deist view of the matter.

Surely, Allah in the recitations of Mohammed did not propose that the Koran be rejected based on paying attention to the world and how things work here.
-

reply to post by eight bits


my suggestion is that yes deism does lead to idea of a Creator but incomplete, it would be like trying to figure out the personality of an artist by looking at his painting.
Qur'an picks up from where deism just leaves solid reasoning and goes into assumptions, about afterlife, attributes of God, validity of revelations etc
Qur'an 21:30

Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth were a joined entity, and We separated them and made from water every living thing? Then will they not believe?

Qur'an 53

31. To God belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on earth. He
will repay those who do evil according
to their deeds, and recompense those
who do good with the best. 32. Those who avoid gross sins and indecencies—except for minor lapses
—your Lord is of Vast Forgiveness. He
knows you well, ever since He created
you from the earth, and ever since you
were embryos in your mothers’
wombs. So do not acclaim your own virtue; He is fully aware of the
righteous. 33. Have you considered him who turned away? 34. And gave a little, and held back? 35. Does he possess knowledge of the unseen, and can therefore foresee? 36. Or was he not informed of what is in the Scrolls of Moses? 37. And of Abraham, who fulfilled? 38. That no soul bears the burdens of another soul. 39. And that the human being attains only what he strives for. 40. And that his efforts will be witnessed. 41. Then he will be rewarded for it the fullest reward. 42. And that to your Lord is the finality. 43. And that it is He who causes laughter and weeping. 44. And that it is He who gives death and life. 45. And that it is He who created the two kinds—the male and the female. 46. From a sperm drop, when emitted. 47. And that upon Him is the next existence. 48. And that it is He who enriches and impoverishes. 49. And that it is He who is the Lord of Sirius. 50. And that it is He who destroyed the first Aad. 51. And Thamood, sparing no one. 52. And the people of Noah before that; for they were most unjust and
most oppressive. 53. And He toppled the ruined cities. 54. And covered them with whatever covered them. 55. So which of your Lord's marvels can you deny? 56. This is a warning, just like the first warnings. 57. The inevitable is imminent. 58. None besides God can unveil it. 59. Do you marvel at this discourse? 60. And laugh, and do not weep? 61. Lost in your frivolity? 62. So bow down to God, and worship!

reply to post by eight bits

The rejection of revelation is fully consistent with the deists' (usual) rejection of any intervention whatsoever by the Creator in space and time, after the creation act itself.

its a very contradicting stand by deists. A Creator not intervening after the initial act. I actually agree with it but my idea is that the Creator doesnt need to rather than dont or worst cant.
Because the Creator knew the end even before the start. Its not that God created but doesnt know how it will evolve and so needs to tweak and repair, then its not Perfect and so its not God.
Rejecting revelations because it means intervention is incomplete conclusion because what if they were planned too right from the beginning?
Deists work from an initial assumption that the Creator planned the creation without revelations and prophets which may or may not be true.
But revelations become necessary if there is afterlife.
So if deists believe that death is not the end then leaving people in the dark about whats next would be unjust of God.

Qur'an 6:124. When a sign comes to them, they say, “We will not believe unless we are
given the like of what was given to
God’s messengers.” God knows best
where to place His message...

this is also a deistic belief that the revelation is only applicable to the one it was revealed but to others its just a tale.

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by eight bits

 

it would be like trying to figure out the personality of an artist by looking at his painting.

What’s the problem with that?
As far as deists are concerned that’s sort of the point of the game

And as eight bits points out why would a deist care what it says in some alleged revelation they are deists after all

reply to post by racasan


i am not asking a deist to take an 'alleged revelation' as revelation, i am pointing out to the valid arguements in the revelation that appeal to common sense and reasoning which deist consider supreme.

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by racasan

 

i am not asking a deist to take an 'alleged revelation' as revelation, i am pointing out to the valid arguements in the revelation that appeal to common sense and reasoning which deist consider supreme.

Well no – your op was something about allah does this blah blah blah, allah moves the sun around yadda yadda yadda

So what in any of that is a deist is going to find as ‘valid’ or be ‘common sense’ or have any ‘reasoning’ in it?

Is it not just a load of theism – the kind of thing deists don’t care about?

reply to post by racasan


deist watch creation and conclude that there must be a Creator. The op says to do the same, watch the sun, plants, fruits ripening etc and see the signs of God, An Intelligence behind them.
You are objecting maybe to the way its put or that its in 1st person. You are saying that deists will reject it because they dont like the "Allah doing.." part as that makes God Active. I am not discussing that.

reply to post by logical7


Deists see the ‘revelations’ of theistic religions as worthless – I assume you understand that – right?

So what is the point in you posting bits of your book to deists?

Anyway back to my original question:
You said

it would be like trying to figure out the personality of an artist by looking at his painting.

My question is what’s the problem with that?

If someone dismisses the ‘revelations’ of theistic religions as rubbish but still suspects there might be a god lurking around somewhere then examining the universe is the only way you might get some idea of what that god is all about

reply to post by racasan

Deists see the ‘revelations’ of theistic
religions as worthless – I assume you
understand that – right?
So what is the point in you posting bits
of your book to deists?

the point is that its not worthless. But the reason i put the op is to present ideas, why care from where they come.

My question is what’s the problem
with that?
If someone dismisses the ‘revelations’
of theistic religions as rubbish but still
suspects there might be a god lurking
around somewhere then examining the universe is the only way you might
get some idea of what that god is all
about

ya exactly SOME IDEA but not complete, not answers to all questions like whats beyond death, what about justice, judgement day, heaven and hell?
And from that point deism goes into conjectures and assumptions.

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by racasan

 

the point is that its not worthless. But the reason i put the op is to present ideas, why care from where they come.

I didn’t ask if you thought it was worthless – I asked if you understand that deists think it’s worthless

ya exactly SOME IDEA but not complete, not answers to all questions like whats beyond death, what about justice, judgement day, heaven and hell?
And from that point deism goes into conjectures and assumptions.

Ok where did you get the “whats beyond death, what about justice, judgement day, heaven and hell” stuff from – your book – right?

Your book that you say is a >revelation< from allah – right?

So since deists don’t believe in any of that why would they care what it says?


Tell you what lets move on because I think we will just go in circles with this


Your view on what deists believe seems a bit limited so here are a few deists’ ideas about the universe and there are probably loads more

Someone turned some dials on a machine and pulled a leaver – and puff the universe began and since then that someone has paid no more attention to the universe
Or
Same as above but it was done to answer a question – so the universe is a calculation in progress – one that will take billions of years to solve
Or
The universe is a simulation
www.huffingtonpost.co.uk...
and we are just here to learn or have fun (there is a lot of intriguing ideas about this one)
we know a song about that:


and I think any one of these ideas is far more interesting than the infantile non-sense in the koran or bible

reply to post by racasan


in a line, God dint just make the experiment, He also made the rules, and being Omnipotent comes with a Unique power, Him being active or leaving doesnt make a difference, He is still in control.
Also, you are just questioning why i made an op that is based on something that deist reject. I accept that you dont agree and lets break the circle. I would love to discuss any other points..

logical7

i am not asking a deist to take an 'alleged revelation' as revelation, i am pointing out to the valid arguements in the revelation that appeal to common sense and reasoning which deist consider supreme.

Yes, but the deist is surely already familiar with the three ancient Abrahamic revelations, plus more modern world-famous revelations such as those said to have been given to Joseph Smith and L. Ron Hubbard. The deist has chosen to reject them as a source of information about God; it's not that the deist has overlooked them. Nor is the deist any more likely than any other thinking person to be impressed that a revelation desribes itself as the genuine article. What do you propose any supposed revelation would say about itself instead?

If any deist ever imagines that there is some reasoning or common sense relationship between the God whom they infer from the grandeur of nature, and the God who gives a rat's patootie how many wives Mohammed takes for himself, or what's Mohammed's percentage share of the loot, then they have your number.

reply to post by logical7


Anybody can write a book and make claims about that book but nobody (so far) can counterfeit the universe – so if there really is a creator then the only way to find out about him/her/it is to study that universe


Let me put this another way – suppose everything about islam vanished all the books all the knowledge in people heads about islam – everything gone

So what can you point at in the universe that would tell you the name of your god or that Mohammad was in anyway important – if there is no way to recreate the koran form observation of the universe then that means the whole thing was most likely created in somebody’s imagination

reply to post by racasan

Originally posted by racasan
So what can you point at in the universe that would tell you the name of your god or that Mohammad was in anyway important – if there is no way to recreate the koran form observation of the universe then that means the whole thing was most likely created in somebody’s imagination

I don't think the name of god matters one whit, and neither does Islam, either, really. Another famous verse from the Quran is something along the lines of "All the most beautiful names belong to God".

And as far as Mohammad goes, I'd say that in the history of humanity, it is quite verifiable that Mohammad is fairly important, but again, the Quran makes no real claim towards Muhammad's importance over any of the other Prophets or messengers of God, or claim that he (and the rest of them) were anything more than mere humans.

Neither of these two examples are at all defining in any major way the meaning or the totality of "Islam". THAT would perhaps more accurately be put into the statement "There is no god but God" (I use the translation of "Allah" instead of the word "Allah" in this case, because you seem to have a hang-up about the name).

The verses that the OP posted (and many others throughout the Quran) speak in a manner that assumes the obviousness of a greater power, of God. There are a whole slew of such verses prefaced with "Have you not seen ...?" and "Did you not see...?" and end with something similar to "Verily there are signs for those who are observant" or "those who study" or even "those who are pious" (all this leading back to the importance and focus islam gives to education and learning and even partly to what became the basis of empirical science).

You seem to be misunderstanding the purpose of the OP (as far as I understand it). You seem to be understanding "Because of all these things mentioned, God exists" (something the OP posted to show the similarity to the view of deists) to mean "Because of all these things mentioned, the specificities of the Islamic religion are true". The Quran/Islam/muslims obviously believes in the truth of those, but those particular verses are not focusing on that.

Look at it in the reverse way. If there are deists who acknowledge the existence of a higher power through the observation and the beauty of the universe and its mechanics, if there was a revelation from such a higher power, wouldn't it also include pointing out of these things?

In fact, Abraham in Islamic tradition is said to have been lead to the worship of God through reason and logic. His father made idols, so as a youth he saw their creation and breakability, and thus rejected them as being anything special. There is related a story of how he first decided that a certain star must be this higher power, but then it faded, then the moon, then the sun, and finally he realised it was the one who created these things that was the higher power.

Also, the idea that the universe is a simulation is very interesting, and opens the door to many other very interesting questions, but it is in no way intrinsic or even prioritised by the deistic world view.

The question of "Why would deists care?" seems to be a bit naive and short-sighted, though, I think. Why would anyone care? Why do we discuss anything at all? Why talk to Christians about Hinduism or to Buddhists about Judaism? Everyone already has their views, and shouldn't care anything about anything else, right? Wrong. Learning and understanding the other side is what ATS is about, and occasionally along the way, you learn something that might resonate with you, and while it won't change your world view, you'll be better for it.

reply to post by babloyi

I don't think the name of god matters one whit, and neither does Islam, either, really. Another famous verse from the Quran is something along the lines of "All the most beautiful names belong to God".

Your god doesn't want his name known, otherwise he'd have told Muhammad instead of playing games with him by giving him an nameless appelation, which i find fishy considering that my God wanted Abraham to know his name and commanded Israel to proclaim his name to the nations. So yeah i can see why you'd think God's name doesn't matter.