question for aussies about guns

reply to post by Grimpachi


Im sorry but your just plain wrong

So you speak for everyone stating you don’t mind being burglarized? You guys seem to be easy targets for criminals.

No one likes to be robbed but no one says they wished they had a gun, Ive stopped a break in simply by confronting the person who was trying to do it.
It was the middle of the day and I was in bed with my GF, there was a knock at the door and I assumed it was a salesman so didnt bother as I was "busy" I heard my side gate but thought it was just the dogs jumping against it then I heard my back door trying to be opened, I went down the back of the house and saw a junkie walking past my back window. I went and opened the back door and said "what the **** are you doing in my backyard" he said something like he saw some kids go into my yard and was chasing them. I said "BS you were gonna rob me" he got in my face and I shouted "call the cops" to my GF and he took off.
Police arrived 10 min later and when I described him they knew who he was, they came back the next day with a book of mugshots and I knew which one straight away, I made a statement and 1 month later he was back in jail.
No guns at any stage required.

The fact is the numbers support the hypothesis that banning guns has little or no effect on crime and if anything it has emboldened home burglary.

Once again junkies dont care, all their thinking about is a fix, having guns in your home would just mean these people now have guns.
The hypothesis is bunk as not many Aussies had guns even before the buyback scheme.
Crims here dont fear citizens have guns but by the same token citizens dont fear crims with guns.

I see what giving up your guns has done. It has made you all easy targets. The more I look into it the more the statistics and facts show that a weapons ban has been a huge mistake on your part.

Horrible stories, but thats just say guns were readily available then would these crims also have had guns? How do you not see that

I tell you this much if meth or bath salts catches on in your country you guys will probably be changing the laws for home defense.

No we wouldnt change any laws because the overwhelming majority of Australians DONT WANT GUNS!!!!!!
Its not part of our culture and all it does is up the ante, citizens get guns, crims get guns, citizens get bigger guns, crims get bigger guns and so on.
I started a thread awhile ago asking non Yanks if they wanted guns, the overwhelming majority said no.
Even if my home was broken into and I was beaten up I still wouldnt want guns to be accessible to the public, sure, me and people I know could be trusted to do the right thing but its not worth the risk with so many nutters out there, as you guys find out on a all to regular basis.

•In 2006, assault rose 49.2 percent and robbery 6.2 percent.
•Sexual assault -- Australia's equivalent term for rape -- increased 29.9 percent.
•Overall, Australia's violent crime rate rose 42.2 percent.

Sorry but official stats say robbery is down since 91
Sexual assualt has risen due to the stigma attached to reporting it being less. I worked with a womens refuge in Australia for awhile on a few projects and while reporting has gone up the actual number of women seeking help has declined since the 90's which means the incidents have dropped. Sadly a large number still go unreported so the figure should be higher than it is but in reality its lower than it was.
It actually makes me really mad when people use rape and sexual assualt in these arguments, I personally see it as ignorant and low. only a tiny portion of rape victims dont know their attacker and in those cases they are often grabbed from behind and a gun would be useless, learning a martial art is your best defence against sexual assualt not a gun. Its almost like your saying its the victims fault for not having a firearm.

Yes violent crime is up but its also due to the way things are reported and a rise in crim on crim crime.
Prior to 2000 (I think) unless a report was made it wasnt included in statistics. Now if there is a bar fight for instance even if no serious injury and no charges laid it is included in stats

Anyway facts are facts. I guess this has been the reason no one from the anti-gun camp has tried to present evidence to support their position. Usually when someone has a strong case you see them post links graphs and quotes.

As weve seen stats can be made to say anything and are not always reliable, most of your side say that the stats Ive shown cant be trusted coz there from the FBI, I stopped bothering. As for quotes, at the end of the day thats just someones opinion

without a doubt baning guns hasn’t effected murder rates

True but they were introduced to stop shooting sprees, 100% sucess

Originally posted by IkNOwSTuff
reply to post by wewillnotcomply666

 

Another fool who knows nothing about what bikies are like . lmao . Walk in and have a conversation with them without crying and #ting in your pants to make them want to belt you , and they will probably invite you to come back for their weekly poker game . Bikies arent all bad and some of the comments i got back on this are ridiculous , meet a few bikies and get to now them lol.

My uncles a rebel and Ive been to a club house.

You walk in off the street as a stranger and ask to buy a gun see what happens, best case scenario they throw you out. In no scenario are you walking out with a gun.
If you know them or have dealings with them maybe its diffrent but the average citizen, not a hope in hell.

As for you seeing gun exchanges first hand, once again your either a criminal and we all agree crims will get guns or your full of it

Ok, my fathers a comanchero , my uncles are both gladiators and my ex gf is a hells angel and ive been to nearly every clubhouse in nsw..

You people arent getting it , im not saying you walk on in for the first time ever , and straight up ask for a gun . .

If you ask in the right way , the right people and with the right cash and you WILL get it .
And as for being a crim the most illegal thing i have ever done is park in a handicap zone lol. A lot of bikies are not crims and neither are all the people who associate with them , pull ur finger out .

Originally posted by DaesDaemar
It's probably possible to get a gun, but stockpiling would be rather difficult. I personally don't think I know the right people to be able to get one illegally, nor would I like to associate with them.

Owning guns isn't really the issue, it's the number of them available. If people have less access to them, then these tragedies may not happen. That's my opinion.

So does that mean, If someone were to give you statistical facts to prove your assumptions to be false That you would change your mind? If for example, I were to say, that in my state of Michigan, gun crime has gone down 25% since CCW permits began to be streamlined to the average citizen, you would say, "Maybe I'm mistaken about my views on gun control"? Is that what your saying?

You know what the first things that crossed my mind when I had a gun in my possession?
This was long ago because now i'm no longer eligible to excercise my "Rights" however I remember it like yesterday.

The first thought I had was, "Wow, I now have the power of life and death in my hands". My Second thought? Ihope I never have to use this.

No what happend when I owned that firearm? Nothing... No what's happend since I've not owned a firearm? Nothing...

I believe these ideas to be the experience of the vast majority of gun owners. When someone says there 12,000 deaths a year. Remind them there's another 290,997,000 Other responsible gun owners in the US.

reply to post by IkNOwSTuff


You got lucky where others were not. What happened you didn’t care about personal stories from others so I don’t care about yours. Next time show respect and it will be afforded to you.

You have ignored where your own countrymen have said they are disappointed with the gun laws. You haven’t provided any numbers to support your statements. Your entire argument is based in emotion with nothing to back it up and people are being hurt and still killed in your country. Your gun laws are a fail it has only made you easy targets.

The facts do not support you.

reply to post by wewillnotcomply666

Ok, my fathers a comanchero , my uncles are both gladiators and my ex gf is a hells angel and ive been to nearly every clubhouse in nsw..

If this is all true and I highly doubt it then you fit into a very small % of Aussies who have possible access to guns, so these people know your a normal guy and not a crim, what are the odds they would give you gun?
Im guessing your uncles or father would belt anyone who did and this would most likely keep them from doing anything stupid.

You people arent getting it , im not saying you walk on in for the first time ever , and straight up ask for a gun . . If you ask in the right way , the right people and with the right cash and you WILL get it .

That was the impression you gave, so what your saying is if you can somehow make friends with a bikie gang (not something the average Aussie would be easily able to do) and hang out with them for a few months then casually bring up you need a gun (in the right way of course) you could get a gun?
So basically getting a gun is harder than even I was saying if this is the case.

And as for being a crim the most illegal thing i have ever done is park in a handicap zone lol. A lot of bikies are not crims and neither are all the people who associate with them , pull ur finger out .

Youve been in a position to watch multiple illegal firearms being sold, your either full of S**T or the people doing the transactions felt comfortable enough in front of you not to worry because your also a crim. They would not do these things in front of a friend of the club.

Most likely your just full of BS

reply to post by Grimpachi


I personally think the numbers which we all know dont support your side.

12,000 gun deaths and how many gun shooting sprees a year.

But of course it has nothing to do with guns being everywhere

Well agree to disagree

reply to post by IkNOwSTuff


Your murder rate has not dropped and your crime rate nearly doubled after the ban ours has dropped in both instances you don’t have a leg to stand on in your quest.

Ban all knives, sticks, bricks and people will still kill. Your entire premise is ludicrous.

Originally posted by Grimpachi
reply to post by IkNOwSTuff

 

Your murder rate has not dropped and your crime rate nearly doubled after the ban ours has dropped in both instances you don’t have a leg to stand on in your quest.

Ban all knives, sticks, bricks and people will still kill. Your entire premise is ludicrous.

I explained the reason for an increase in crime stats and once again even before the ban very few Aussies had guns.
You do realise how ridiculous the ban knives, sticks, Drs thing is dont you?

Murder with guns hasnt increased nor has crimes using guns so your premise that it emboldens crims is nonsense, HARDLY ANY AUSSIES HAD GUNS EVEN BEFORE THE BANS!!!!!
Crime increased due to drugs not crims thinking "sweet no guns, lets go rob and beat people up"

So you wanna keep going OK

Why does America have such a high rate of gun deaths and have shooting sprees every few months?
Dont twist it and say "well so does mexico" why does it happen in the US?

reply to post by IkNOwSTuff


Your explanation is only your opinion and was not fact based or supported by any evidence. Your opinion cannot be taken as fact.

The facts are your weapons ban has not affected crime rates in a positive manor it is considered as an epic fail.

The US has had the same problems with drugs and immigration even more so yet our rates have dropped and can be considered as proof positive loosening concealed carry laws has had a positive effect on lowering crime across the board.

I don’t care how a person was killed just that they were killed and your ban has not changed those numbers. Sorry but your opinion is moot.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Murder is still murder regardless to how it was done. Can we agree on that?

Originally posted by IkNOwSTuff
reply to post by wewillnotcomply666

 

Ok, my fathers a comanchero , my uncles are both gladiators and my ex gf is a hells angel and ive been to nearly every clubhouse in nsw..

If this is all true and I highly doubt it then you fit into a very small % of Aussies who have possible access to guns, so these people know your a normal guy and not a crim, what are the odds they would give you gun?
Im guessing your uncles or father would belt anyone who did and this would most likely keep them from doing anything stupid.


1. It is true, whether you doubt it or not . And do you think they care who they sell them to ? Crim or no crim they dont care lol. On the other hand , if someone walked in and said they wanted to use it on a whole bunch of innocent kids or something then yes , they probably would.



You people arent getting it , im not saying you walk on in for the first time ever , and straight up ask for a gun . . If you ask in the right way , the right people and with the right cash and you WILL get it .


That was the impression you gave, so what your saying is if you can somehow make friends with a bikie gang (not something the average Aussie would be easily able to do) and hang out with them for a few months then casually bring up you need a gun (in the right way of course) you could get a gun?
So basically getting a gun is harder than even I was saying if this is the case.

2. Have you ever been to a bikie clubhouse or a tattoo shop run by some ? Have you ever heard anything about them that wasnt blown out of proportion by the media making people believe all bikies are bad. You have no idea whether it would be easy for the 'average aussie' to make friends with a bikie club as you have never tried .

And as for being a crim the most illegal thing i have ever done is park in a handicap zone lol. A lot of bikies are not crims and neither are all the people who associate with them , pull ur finger out .

Youve been in a position to watch multiple illegal firearms being sold, your either full of S**T or the people doing the transactions felt comfortable enough in front of you not to worry because your also a crim. They would not do these things in front of a friend of the club.

Most likely your just full of BS

3. They felt comfortable because they were my family fool. Why do i have to be a crim to be smart enough not to snitch in a whole heap of bikies to the cops for selling guns? Lol . No , you're right they do not do these things in front of a friend of the club , i am not a friend. By the way , the point was would they sell guns to someone , not whether they would do these things in front of a friend of the club . We are talking about John Doe walking into a biker clubhouse and asking a few questions and either leaving with a gun or directions on how to get one .

edit on 26-12-2012 by wewillnotcomply666 because: (no reason given)

This is a question for all Aussies.

Do you like the gun laws in your country?

Do you wish you could legally own one without having to jump through hoops? I am not saying there would be no regulation just that it wasn’t so strict or expensive.

If you lived in a high crime area where home break ins were common would you like to be able to own a legal handgun or shotgun and have the right to defend yourself without fear of prosecution?

Originally posted by Grimpachi
reply to post by IkNOwSTuff

 

Your murder rate has not dropped and your crime rate nearly doubled after the ban ours has dropped in both instances you don’t have a leg to stand on in your quest.

Ban all knives, sticks, bricks and people will still kill. Your entire premise is ludicrous.

I keep seeing this "guns are just tools" argument. I'm sorry but guns are DESIGNED to injure or kill. That is their PURPOSE and they are not a simple "tool" they are a weapon. Trying to call them a tool is just a weak attempt to assign innocence to them because the word weapon implies violence by default.

"No no it's not a weapon! it is a tool.. erm.. like a desert spoon".

reply to post by goou111


Ok I learned to fire a gun under supervision as early as ten years old.
When as a legal gun license owner, I could fire my pull apart 15 shot (down the barrell) legally.
I could store it in two components.
It was a brilliantly designed 22 short weapon.
I handed it in , when the Port Arthur Massacre by one Aussie , caused all Aussies to hand in millions of weapons.
I got about 400 dollars for one of the best weapons designed ever.
Now I see recently arrived migrants shooting up Sydney every single day.
All via illegal weapons..ie no license, not allowed...they are not POlice...or Security Officers ect.
How does thios make me feel?
Law abiding and at the same time defenceless.
A sucker.
The Police in Sydney are afraid of the Lebanese and others crime gangs.
I do not blame them.
The Police are armed with Glocks , the gangs with much bigger guns.
There are suburbs in Sydney no Aussie Anglo will be safe to go...because of the gun laws.
IE the law abiding have no weapons, the criminal scum have many exotic weapons.
Recently , but alas the news has been buried....customs in Australia have been exposed (on Film) actively importing guns into Sydney Australia.
Its all so much evil...its almost a Hollywood movie, except the victims don't get royalties.

reply to post by riley


Then explain rubber bullets, Pepper rounds, rock salt rounds, and bean bag rounds.

Your opinion is noted and dismissed.

reply to post by Grimpachi


They are also all designed to inflict pain and/or injury on fellow human beings.. ergo they are WEAPONS not just innocent tools.

reply to post by riley


Hammers have been used in murders as well do you want to ban them?

How about pepper spray, Tasers, mace how about karate classes it turns a person into a weapon do you wish to ban those as well.

I find it ridicules that you blame the tools in affect you are avoiding the real problem which is the criminal and the shifting the blame off of those responsible. It keeps you from addressing the cause and motivations by blaming a tool. The gun bans in Australia did nothing to stop those from murdering.

The entire premise behind banning guns is a fail. I made my points I hope I hear from other Aussies about my questions.

Originally posted by Grimpachi
reply to post by riley

 

Hammers have been used in murders as well do you want to ban them?

Yep.. you're trying to justify the existence of a weapon that can kill someone at a distance by comparing it to something used to drive nails through wood. There is no comparison between a hammer and something that can kill several people from thirty meters away.

How about pepper spray, Tasers, mace how about karate classes it turns a person into a weapon do you wish to ban those as well.

Yep you're doing it again.. trying to make guns seem not so bad by comparng it to non lethal wapons.. and karate? Really? Thats not even a tool. You realise that it's only meant to be used in self defence don't you? I am also yet to know of anyone who can kick a bullet out of the air so comparing guns to a martial art is just silly.

I find it ridicules that you blame the tools in affect you are avoiding the real problem which is the criminal and the shifting the blame off of those responsible. It keeps you from addressing the cause and motivations by blaming a tool. The gun bans in Australia did nothing to stop those from murdering.

The murder rate US vs Aus seems to suggest otherwise.

The entire premise behind banning guns is a fail. I made my points I hope I hear from other Aussies about my questions.

At least you could have admitted they are weapons that are designed to injure and kill rather than just "tools" that kill people incidentally.. :shk:

Guns don't kill people. People with guns kill people. so do people with nukes, forks, cars, napalm, the flu and money. some of those things we need.
There are guns here. For hunting, sport & law enforcement.
In Australia, we don't need guns because people don't have guns.
Guns, there aren't many on the street because not many people have guns.
You wouldn't need guns if people didn't have guns.

You have guns because you like guns.
Guns are powerful and you think you have the right to the power to give and take life from those who cross your "bestowed" rights.
...and your excuses are many.

Originally posted by IkNOwSTuff
You say our laws remind you of an overbearing mother, American gun laws remind us of alcoholic parents who dont give a toss whet their children get up to.

you want the "state" to be the equivalent of a parent, and individuals as "children" of the state

Not a good way to be