A list of already debunked theories, re: Sandy hook

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan
reply to post by Human_Alien

 

mourning the death of 27 people, people whom you don't know, by insinuating that guns owners are crazy.

It seems a little disingenuous when you are using your time of mourning to demonize others. But if you say so.

edit on 25-12-2012 by bigfatfurrytexan because: (no reason given)

Unlike the non-compassionate souls here, I don't need to justify, dignify or qualify how this event effected me to you!
But one thing is for certain, those kids (and now, their families) did NOT have a joyous holiday this year.

And being a parent and now grandparent, I can't shake this lame feeling that ----every single child has the RIGHT to feel safe and secure in their school let alone on this planet!!

So in summation, if you can't 'dig' where I am coming from, please refrain from future dialogue with me.

Peace in~

Originally posted by RedBird

Originally posted by westcoast
.....and YOU'RE talking about ethics?

This kind of statement is exactly the kind of crap we are talking about.

Yes...some of things you listed, I agree with you, there is too much liberation in those discussions. But how can you write about all of that in your post, postulating that none of that is okay, and then say THAT? Completely unvalidates any of your post, IMO.

No, I'm talking about HYPOCRISY! I'm talking about using ethics and decorum as a cudgel to silence discussion whenever the topic makes us feel icky, but letting everything slide when we have no personal axe to grind.

My entire point is that I claim no ethical or moral high ground! I do not think there is "too much liberation in those discussions" -- on the contrary, I think that all of those topics are FAIR GAME! I also think that Sandy Hook is fair game!

I think ATS should be the kind of place where I can make whatever claim I want, short of libel.

And for the record, I did not shed one bloody tear for the victims at Sandy Hook. Wanna know why? Because it's a big world full of suffering; children die every day, tragedy strikes lives every day, and I don't decide to rent my clothes and put on a big freaking show just because the victims were middle-class white kids living in suburban Connecticut.

Call me a monster all you want. At least I'm not a bloody hypocrite.

So the difference between your point of view and those of the administrators is what makes this site different from others.

THAT is why I chose to only post on ATS, so that I can have at least a little bit of a filter from others that share your blatant lack of decorum.

No...they and ATS are far from perfect, but at least they try and acknowledge when a topic has gone to far and may be causing someone HARM. I agree that there is a lot of suffering and grieving is this world....a whole lotta evil right now. Kids are dying every day, and if I stop just for a moment and allow myself to think about it and feel that pain....I do cry, like I am right now. I used to shield myself from it but you loose so much, you have to allow yourself that humane element sometimes or it is lost. The difference with the massacre is that it hit so close to home. Call that as wrong as you want...but it is the truth. It was in our own country, or own state, our own town or for some, our own families. It is all over our media, we are inundated by it. Those who were able to block that much sadness 'in your face' out, and turn from it has something inherent wrong them. It is just humane nature to respond with grief, so it only makes sense that to mock others feelings or to try and cast doubt on a parents obvious grief....posting personal information and saying things that obviously are VERY hurtful, is just.....wrong.

I personally think that same regard SHOULD be given to several of the other topics you listed, for the same reasons. But those topics just aren't as RAW so don't have the same impact or harm as the massacre does. It is called civil decorum.

I really am sorry for you that you feel no sorrow or grief for those children or their families. I get what you are saying that it is a big world filled with that same grief every minute of every day somewhere....I obviously can't hunt down every story of sorrow and cry about it, doesn't mean I am not aware. However, there comes a time when something is close enough to you that it's important to acknowledge it....to allow yourself to FEEL it and be reminded that yes, this does happen and it IS real and our world is messed up but we have to find compassion.

Originally posted by bknapple32
Here's a hunch...

Laykilla=Ladyk74


The similarities are erie!!!!!! OMG were on to something. Where does it end?? The K in ladyk HAS to stand for killa in this other name. It must be the same poster!!!

See how easy it is? With no evidence? I have just condemned someone because of circumstance. Of course I dont believe it. But this is the level of 'journalism' it degraded to.


TO BE CLEAR

SO is not demanding that people NOT talk about Sandy Hook.. But he is reminding our community that he allowed it to go on, he gave you the freedom to discuss it. And you took that offering from him, and pissed all over it. You degraded to breaking cardinal sins of ATS. You incorporated personal information from innocent civilians who's only fault was being involved indirectly in the mass murder of women and children. Innocent until proven guilty by a court of law, not a mob online thinking they are going to break some case and their names will be in the spotlight for finding out 'the truth' You not only posted personal information of innocent civilians, but you resorted to calling this person some of the most heinous things you could call a person. And I would know, I was sexually attacked as a child... But I don't just call someone a pedophile just because.

Because I know what that assault means. I know what it implies. Ever stop to think that what if this caught on? What if SO didnt step in? This man's family google's him for a holiday joke, and then they see this, a community calling their relative a pedophile. With not so much as an iota of truth.


So you all want to know why the crackdown has come? Because you all were given a chance to be civil with this topic. The second it went from asking questions to putting together a minute by minute synopsis integrating ''alleged father'' ''faking tears'' ''crazy doctor is in on it'' ''those children never died'' '''look that girl is alive'', you all took that chance SO and the staff gave you and spit on it.

Excuse me, who are you talking to, leave out the "you all" bit. Tone it down a bit man!

Originally posted by smurfyI understand what you say, but we are not yet at the stage of an 'official' story, that is what makes this whole speculation so ugly. the only hard facts so far seem to have come from the coroner, apart from the police identitification of the person responsible.

edit on 25-12-2012 by smurfy because: Text.

But this is exactly my point. If, as you say, there is no official story...where are the people clambering to defend the morality/ethics of crucifying this kid in the press from day one?

Surely if this concern for the families, or other people's delicate sensibilities, is sincere it should also extend to a person not officially tied to the event? Even tho that person has been convicted in the eyes of every person that has heard even the briefest of "details" from this story.

Kudos to RedBird...Idon't think I could make the points any mor eloquently.

reply to post by smurfy


The you all is to those who contributed to the disgust SO is talking about. If you werent part of it, its not directed at you. Sorry if that wasnt clear. My bad

reply to post by Druid42


But not you or anyone else has found anything of any substance to continue to peddle some of the nonsense that has permeated across these boards.

-Why do we speculate....

Well, look at CNN's front page and the entire "Sandy hook" section and this is what we have...
www.cnn.com... -CNN Homepage

"Shooting in newtown" [entire section]
TOP STORY:

politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com... This story si about the Moderator on "Meet The Press" who used a 30 round clip in a news segment and may have committedwww.cnn.com... a Felony and violated D.C. Law... Note: Not about Newtown
www.cnn.com... Story #2. About a new York Paper printing Gun owners names and addresses [NOTE: This story has been discussed here already and there were links to the original article which contains personal (and Public) info similar to arrest records which were posted and against the TOS I guess...
www.cnn.com... Story #3. All newtown officers get Christmas off... Well isnt that sweet? Not really news, but...
www.cnn.com...#/video/showbiz/2012/12/24/sot-hollywood-enough.cnn And the last story in the entire newtown Shooting section... Celebrities make an Anti-Shooting Pub lic Service Announcement.

Notice, no questions being asked, no information about anything and only "emotional" and "gun control" stories on CNN in the Newtown Shooting section... This is going on 2 weeks later and the last new info we had was from last week...

So yeah, we are left with questions and speculation- This has been a Circus fueled on Emotion and emotion alone and it has hindered discussion... I guess we wil wait for the Official Story to "clear things up" and then we will know what happened since the Official Story must be correct as it is "Official" and out Free press would get to the bottom of anything amiss, right???

Originally posted by fleabit

Not to get too far off track, but it's like the Pentagon crash - people act as if someone has never seen a JUMBO JET before. But they claim that the witnesses were just "mistaken" by what they had seen. Baloney. I think the police can gather quite a lot of very specific, correct information via witnesses, without having to rely on a bunch of guesswork.

Good example. How do you describe a Jumbo Jet? Some people have little experience flying so any Boeing might be a jumbo jet to them. A more experienced flier might say a Jumbo Jet would be one of the wide-body aircraft like a 747, DC-10, 767, L1011, or the like. If people had described a Jumbo Jet crashing into the Pentagon on 9/11 that would partially color their testimony in my mind in that the "official story" tells of a Boeing 757 crashing there and that is about the size of a 707 or a narrow-body plane. True, a 757 is large by many standards but does not carry the "heavy" radio designation used for those larger planes that might more properly denote a Jumbo Jet per se.

Sorry to stray from the subject of the school slaying but this kind of witness testimony is at least somewhat relevant to our discussion here, I believe.

Originally posted by bknapple32

So you all want to know why the crackdown has come? Because you all were given a chance to be civil with this topic. The second it went from asking questions to putting together a minute by minute synopsis integrating ''alleged father'' ''faking tears'' ''crazy doctor is in on it'' ''those children never died'' '''look that girl is alive'', you all took that chance SO and the staff gave you and spit on it.

I can't believe I'm hearing this. I was right with you until this last paragraph. Obviously I am both thankful and relieved that the earlier categorically untrue suggestion of personal sexual impropriety was removed -- and this was consistent with long-running ATS policy of deleting all content related to... well, pedophilia.

But as for:

"alleged father"
"faking tears"
"crazy doctor is in on it"
"those children never died" and
"look that girl is alive"

These statements might be offensive, ludicrous, asinine, repugnant, and a whole host of other adjectives, BUT: they aren't any more libelous or defamatory than ANY OTHER conspiracy-related statements made on ATS about prominent individuals in the public eye. And these ARE public individuals now, whether they like it or not. You can blame the MSM for that, by the way -- not anyone here on ATS.

If Robbie Parker wants his bloody privacy, he should stay off the TV news. If Gene Rosen wants the integrity of his character to be unimpeachable, he should get out of the freaking spotlight, and stop giving interviews. If Obama wants every tear he sheds to be taken as the absolute word-of-god-genuine-truth-of-a-tear, then he never should have ran for president.

I simply do not understand why it is OK to talk about chemtrails, genocide, NWO, Illuminati, alien-reptilian shape-shifters, and satanic human sacrifice -- specifically accusing real individuals of these things -- but NOT OK to suggest that Robbie Parker's grief did not appear genuine on TV.

If the reason we allow these other wild accusations is because, deep down, we know they're all nonsense, then we're all full of it. If the reason is actually because we know none of those other people will ever SUE us, but that Robbie Parker MIGHT, then SO and the owners have EVERY RIGHT to censor any libelous content, but, they have no right to claim any kind of moral high-ground.

reply to post by Laykilla




Some times a deranged killing is just a deranged killing.
And some times 6-degrees of separation is just that too.
And what is often the case is: suspicious & paranoid people don't like truth unless it's dipped in some covert drama.

It is not our job to investigate this especially at this VERY early juncture. We're not qualified nor are we on the scene but..........I'll coddle you

If you feel you found some uncanny and over-looked tie that can possibly shed some light on this..... the FBI has an 800 number available 24 hours a day/7 days a week. And Christmas!

Originally posted by Human_Alien

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan
reply to post by Human_Alien

 

mourning the death of 27 people, people whom you don't know, by insinuating that guns owners are crazy.

It seems a little disingenuous when you are using your time of mourning to demonize others. But if you say so.

edit on 25-12-2012 by bigfatfurrytexan because: (no reason given)

Unlike the non-compassionate souls here, I don't need to justify, dignify or qualify how this event effected me to you!
But one thing is for certain, those kids (and now, their families) did NOT have a joyous holiday this year.

And being a parent and now grandparent, I can't shake this lame feeling that ----every single child has the RIGHT to feel safe and secure in their school let alone on this planet!!

So in summation, if you can't 'dig' where I am coming from, please refrain from future dialogue with me.

Peace in~

Amen to that Human. It is normal to have empathy, and the same sadness with folk who have lost in this manner, or any other for that matter. I've seen similar words like, "mourning the death of 27 people, people whom you don't know" uttered on 9/11 posts.

reply to post by Human_Alien


Not a problem with that. But please refrain from casting aspersions on entire groups of people because you don't like the behaviors of some here at ATS. One of the folks you insulted, even if inadvertantly, was me. A gun owner, and a parent myself.

reply to post by Human_Alien
I do not disagree with what you've said.
But where there is a lack of evidence, there will remain questions.

Originally posted by Human_Alien
reply to post by Laykilla

 

Some times a deranged killing is just a deranged killing.
And some times 6-degrees of separation is just that too.
And what is often the case is: suspicious & paranoid people don't like truth unless it's dipped in some covert drama.

It is not our job to investigate this especially at this VERY early juncture. We're not qualified nor are we on the scene but..........I'll coddle you

If you feel you found some uncanny and over-looked tie that can possibly shed some light on this..... the FBI has an 800 number available 24 hours a day/7 days a week. And Christmas!

You are right...

Its not our "job" to discuss anything at all that is related to anything here (well for most of us anyhow, I am sure)

Again- We speculated about 911 within hours and far before the 911 commission report which must have clearly been 100% conclusive since it was an "official" investigation.

So no- This isnt our "job"- We are here because we are looking to try to see past what many of us feel is a smokescreen of controlled confusion... If you see no smokescreen, so be it- Talk about Aliens (that isnt your "job" either...But...)
EDIT: Just do not go outside what is "officiallty" known about Aliens- To do otherwise would be to intimate that there are thousands upon thousands of liars in our Government and a big Conspiracy which you cannot prove- Thus feelings may get hurt and no evidence will be offered.

Originally posted by westcoast
I really am sorry for you that you feel no sorrow or grief for those children or their families. I get what you are saying that it is a big world filled with that same grief every minute of every day somewhere....I obviously can't hunt down every story of sorrow and cry about it, doesn't mean I am not aware. However, there comes a time when something is close enough to you that it's important to acknowledge it....to allow yourself to FEEL it and be reminded that yes, this does happen and it IS real and our world is messed up but we have to find compassion.

I don't need your sorrow or your pity, but thank you for your otherwise kind and civilized words. Your admonition that we should all be more courteous, thoughtful, and exercise restraint was articulate, passionate, and reasonable.

I will forgive you for accusing me of discourtesy, as I realize your only exposure to me has been this rather heated argument (if you would like to look at my profile, I think you will be pleasantly surprised by my history) and it can be hard to extrapolate from isolated and exceptional data points.

I affirm, re-affirm, and champion your right to feel moved by this tragedy, and to choose it (among the many tragedies of our world) as the one incident that will touch you deep down, and give you pause for reflection. Again -- I live nowhere near CT, I don't know any of the victims personally, and from my perspective, theirs deaths are no more tragic or worthy of tears than the deaths of 20 children, from chronic diarrhea, whose names I will never know, in the time it took me to write this post.

You don't need to feel sorry for me that I was not moved by this tragedy. I am not an un-feeling monster. I just don't know any of these people, and I don't let the TV-news set my emotional state for me (not meaning to imply that you do -- you may have been personally touched by the tragedy, I was not).


Again, having said ALL THAT:

I proclaim that people should be allowed to make whatever claims they want, short of libel, regardless of who it offends, as long as they do so in a courteous manner.

reply to post by captaintyinknots


She seen his feet that was it, I don't know how seeing someones feet can turn into seeing somebody's eyes but whatever I agree with you on that one. There is not enough evidence to support any claim anyone has came up with because it simply doesn't exist. Sound familar to 9/11? Even if the attack was carried out and not staged still doesn't change the fact that we know the people responsible and there the one's hiding in plain sight...if you catch my drift.

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan
reply to post by Human_Alien

 

Not a problem with that. But please refrain from casting aspersions on entire groups of people because you don't like the behaviors of some here at ATS. One of the folks you insulted, even if inadvertantly, was me. A gun owner, and a parent myself.

At the risk of getting this removed, I'm not fully understanding where this self-importance is coming from Tex.
I am not directing any of my earlier posts to you so...... if one of your nerves got hit, own it and heel from it.

I at no time said ALL gun owners are inept. What I am saying is, based on these threads and those members who are defending the Right to Bear arms based on this event......I question their ability to discern a situation accurately.

And it's right there, my concerns rev up. I'd like to think those in the position to kill me, (for say...bringing mail to you that I received accidentally) have better-than-excellent judgement. And I'm not generally seeing that.

Listen...I don't begrudge you for wanting to live your life with a finger on the trigger. I chose to live mine more peacefully. You see: my choice can't hurt you whereas your choice can hurt me.

Originally posted by RedBird

Originally posted by westcoast
I really am sorry for you that you feel no sorrow or grief for those children or their families. I get what you are saying that it is a big world filled with that same grief every minute of every day somewhere....I obviously can't hunt down every story of sorrow and cry about it, doesn't mean I am not aware. However, there comes a time when something is close enough to you that it's important to acknowledge it....to allow yourself to FEEL it and be reminded that yes, this does happen and it IS real and our world is messed up but we have to find compassion.

I don't need your sorrow or your pity, but thank you for your otherwise kind and civilized words. Your admonition that we should all be more courteous, thoughtful, and exercise restraint was articulate, passionate, and reasonable.

I will forgive you for accusing me of discourtesy, as I realize your only exposure to me has been this rather heated argument (if you would like to look at my profile, I think you will be pleasantly surprised by my history) and it can be hard to extrapolate from isolated and exceptional data points.

I affirm, re-affirm, and champion your right to feel moved by this tragedy, and to choose it (among the many tragedies of our world) as the one incident that will touch you deep down, and give you pause for reflection. Again -- I live nowhere near CT, I don't know any of the victims personally, and from my perspective, theirs deaths are no more tragic or worthy of tears than the deaths of 20 children, from chronic diarrhea, whose names I will never know, in the time it took me to write this post.

You don't need to feel sorry for me that I was not moved by this tragedy. I am not an un-feeling monster. I just don't know any of these people, and I don't let the TV-news set my emotional state for me (not meaning to imply that you do -- you may have been personally touched by the tragedy, I was not).


Again, having said ALL THAT:

I proclaim that people should be allowed to make whatever claims they want, short of libel, regardless of who it offends, as long as they do so in a courteous manner.

Well said, point taken and I agree with most of what you have said here.

The only issue here really, is your proclamation. You are certainly entitled to that opinion, but you are not the owner of this site. The owner has stated what they do and do not want said regarding this issue, so that is that. Anyone can practice thier freedom of speech and start their OWN website saying whatever they want (short of libel), but the owner of ATS has made it clear what will and will not be accepted. You don't have to like it, but I think anyone who wants to be a member needs to respect it.

As one of the other, people who helped to create, and has stood firmly by, the policies that helped this site become what it has become, I have to say that I am embarrassed for our community as well.

Where is our HEART?

How can anyone be so callous as to suggest the things I've seen suggested about people who have suffered the way the parents in Newtown have suffered?

Our TAC restricts personal information for a reason.

Our hearts should keep us from attacking those who were so recently attacked in the most awful way a parent can be attacked.

Just because you think something doesn't give you the right to cause more hurt to someone by publicly stating it when you don't have anything more than suspicions, misunderstood evidence, or your own feelings based on what you perceive as reality. Just because you think someone should act a certain way doesn't mean they should.

Especially when what you think is beyond knowing at this stage, when what you think is based on conflicting reports which are the result of the chaos of a horrible and fluid situation unfolding in real time in front of a media industry fighting to be "the first" accuracy and ethics be damned. Or, worse yet, when what you think has no basis in reality and is little more than trying to gain internet fame through shock value.

This tragedy is about people and families who lost their babies in the most tragic way possible, they had zero indication it was coming, they never got to say goodbye.

Anyone who can't see that it's absolutely wrong to publicly speculate about a tragedy like this with unfounded, sometimes bordering on ludicrous, innuendo totally lacking in any factual support needs to find their heart, and it is my hope their mind will follow.

Springer...