All are NOT created equal

Sure, it sounds great and holds some truth to it, but it's been carried to extremes it wasn't meant to be carried to.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness

When this was written, there was still slavery. The slaves weren't considered to be "equal" at all. The writers of the time weren't refering to all humans, nor were they referring to abilities, status or anything else. They were declaring that all European white men were created with the same rights in their minds. That was the limit of it. Later on, the slaves were freed and gained those same rights and were considered "equal" as well, but still, there were limitations to this "equality".

The novel "Animal Farm" was an excellent parody on it. "All animals are created equal, some are just more equal than others". That's the very idea that those words were penned with. It wasn't a scientific based dissertation, it wasn't a religous based declaration, it was part of the Declaration of Independence showing a breaking away from the rule of England. They were saying that all the men settlers in the new world were equal in what they were able to say. That was the limit of it.

We know very well that all are not created eqaul, especially not these days. Yes, they have the same basic rights and responsibilities as anyone else, but the rest, no, they're not equal. Some have a jumpstart in life coming from wealthy parents. Others have a leg up due to their intelligence level or reasoning ability. Others are faced with obstacles from birth such as being orphans or being born to a drug addict or having brain damage of some sort due to complications during pregnancy. Even though their basic rights and responsibilities are "equal", the rest isn't.

Black men are still a rung below on the ladder. Women are two rungs below. Gays and Lesbians are 4 rungs down and being kicked in the head. These groups are closing in and will eventually have equality even though there are many who wish to keep them down the eschelon ladder. Equal rights and being born equal are two different things though. People need to realize the Declaration of Independence has to do with rights and responsibilities, not physical attributes.

A poor white kid is born of a drug addicted mother while, at the exact same time, a black kid is born to parents who graduated college. They aren't equal, not by any means. The child of the college graduates has much greater potential, he has a much better chance of making his way in the world. The child born to the drug addicted mother is already in an uphill climb. After he is freed from his addiction, there are still damages to his brain, there is still the challenge of getting an education, graduating, getting a job or perhaps, not likely, going to college. The other child will excell in school, go on to a good college and get a good job when he graduates and start a family of his own. The skin color of the two didn't matter, the parental choices did, basic genetics did, area they are born in did. They weren't created equal, they were created at very different stations in life and that will determine how easy or difficult their road is.

The other thread going on discussing IQ brings these differences out as well. It is easily seen who would fall where on the scale just by the posting. Some are lower and some are higher. Some have reached their potential or even gone a bit further than their potential suggested they would. Others fell short. Some are right where they should be or have even further they will go in their lives. These potentials aren't equal, not by a long shot.

I grow tired of seeing people take things out of context. The Declaration of Independence had to do with rights and responsibilities, not potential. We all have the same basic rights and the same basic responsibilities, in that sense, we are created equal. In every other sense imaginable, we're not. Not even close.

reply to post by L8RT8RZ


All are born with an equal quality of character. If you are strictly thinking about it in terms of social status and wealth, then I agree,

There are so many variables that can be used to show how one is not equal to another, or how one is equal to another. When it comes down to it, we have the same creator. We are all equal under the eyes of the creator with the same chance to find the truth as our brothers or sisters. What do you know of another man's struggles, pain, or joys? You dont. Period. It is impossible to quantify one's experience and convey it to another accurately. To see that we are all equal requires faith in the higher powers.

Everybody has equal opportunities to succeed but many choose instead to keep it real for fear of being labeled a sell out.
That mindset alone is a form of self slavery and the only ones to blame are those that still subscribe to that way of thinking.
If they dont care about doing better in life, why should everyone else be forced to cater to their needs?

We all get the equality we can afford.
Similar to justice or medical or just about everything else in this world.
We get what we can afford.
This is why I so strongly believe in the first two rights confirmed in the bill of rights.
God did not create all people equal, firearms made us all equal.
And that insures my freedom of speech.

reply to post by L8RT8RZ


Where is this pretend world where straight white males have no problems 'cos I'd love to go there? Here in the real world, we're all screwed equally unless we're rich. Probably didn't notice that all the way up there on your high horse.

reply to post by L8RT8RZ

yeah gene selection really makes a farce of equality
then environmental affects upon dna
toss in genetic modification...yea
that whole equal stuff is so silly

the paper angle
freedom was so 1776
all papers...bill of rights,emancipation proclamation even the constitution
sadly...paper is all those "are to be"

i'll drift a lil and see who comprehends me here....please correct me if i'm wrong

when nazi germany failed...the plan to take over the world
1st important issue became
study what worked and what didn't
grab those nazi scientist at all cost (operation paperclip)

everything was digested,refined,improved before next take over the world was to be attempted
"not to ensure it couldn't happen again"

the new plan...a progressive covert unfolding one based in end goal outweighing time to achieve goal...goal success from inception

the label it wears...the united nations...in name of world peace
in order for all nations to become united...they must fall as separates...all nations currently are engineered to fail including the people (poisoned air-food and water)

sad as the beauty of the world was the diversity of people and cultures

myself i don't see or find a flaw in it's success...they have pulled this off...
surface dwellers...the nations and people are engineered to fail and the stage of us is close...real close

the true future of humans is now is staged
we've built n funded their underground nursery chamber
those born there will be of best gene selection with new brain programming
finest of technology, pristine poison free environment
perfect slaves and perfect slave masters

the surface will cleanse and secret books will tell a tale of a time when that can be confirmed

grand design...new world order...one world government...it's bore label changes through the years
currently it's under the United Nations guise is all

before correcting me or enlightening me here...which i openly invite
please research
a quick lil support video is attached to see if i on to this...please note the CFR and secretary of state tie and look up john kerry's background
if you need some advice on research avenues...watch a 1968 series by griffin on the grand design and thoroughly comprehend the UN...then with any military knowledge of strategy...the tactic becomes clear under all of it's covert disguise

as stated this short 3 minute video could turn a light bulb on justifying further research into what i convey
www.youtube.com...

You know what, I have pondered this thing equality for a fair while now, and every time I do the same uncomfortable inconvinient truth pops into my head.

In order to have equality, there has to be inequality.

Controversial I know, but think of it this way, if we had equal opportunity to any job for example, surely there would be no bin men.

Possibly not the best way to illustrate my point, but hopefully it offers something.

I'm not saying its right, I'm just saying it is what it is.

I learnt in a documentary I watched last year that apparenly iron is the element all the other elements on the periodic table aspire to be, because it is the goldilocks element as it were.

Try as they might, all the other elements will never be iron, if they were, the equality of every element becoming iron would wreak havoc on the presentation of the periodic table, and result in a non-existence of, well everything pretty much.

reply to post by L8RT8RZ
I agree with your Op almost in it's entirety with the exception of one item. I know many people with extremely high IQs who do not have the common sense that "God gave a goose". These people have college degrees in most cases, and yet barely have a pot to piss in because they are unable to function in society. On the other hand I also know many with average or below average IQs who possess an abundance of common sense and live extremely successful lives. Therefore it is my belief that having a higher than average IQ does not necessarily give one an advantage in matters of equality/inequality. Just my opinion, of course!

reply to post by L8RT8RZ


I doubt it is unreasonable to suppose that a minority (even among those who "wrote") of white continentals believed that slaves ought to be afforded the same social equalities (e.g. property rights) that whites enjoyed. But aside from my skepticism toward the declarations in your second paragraph I agree that "all are not created equal" and otherwise agree with the points you lay out.

When this was written, there was still slavery.

reply to post by L8RT8RZ


And a couple hundred years later our DNA shows that blacks with a direct lineage back to Africa are 100% human, while everyone else on the planet is 96% human and 4% Neanderthal. Ironic huh?

Originally posted by littled16
reply to post by L8RT8RZ

 

I agree with your Op almost in it's entirety with the exception of one item. I know many people with extremely high IQs who do not have the common sense that "God gave a goose". These people have college degrees in most cases, and yet barely have a pot to piss in because they are unable to function in society. On the other hand I also know many with average or below average IQs who possess an abundance of common sense and live extremely successful lives. Therefore it is my belief that having a higher than average IQ does not necessarily give one an advantage in matters of equality/inequality. Just my opinion, of course!

The Op posted a very long researched excellent thread:

This is normally not my cup of tea but I thought I would interject something I was told in S.E. Asia a long time ago. Their explanation is many/most have 7 lives in which to learn what they need to know before joining God or moving to the next plain of existence thus removing the need for rebirth and death on the wheel of life.

Now here is the interesting thing for me. We have all met people who we believe suffer from a serious case of "can't understand normal things" (C.U.N.T.) They are usually on their first life...The monks can look at ones fingers and according to them tell how many lives you have had before; it has to do with the finger prints..

They see someone who is deformed they are merciful, for the person is paying for a misdeed from last life..Maybe they were beautiful and treated everyone like dirt or made others suffer like some two bit dictator....pay back can be bad when karma is involved........ if you want to believe they are correct in their beliefs.

I did meet someone both in the states and one overseas that by their finger prints were on their 7th life. I was impressed but might have just been happenstance. The stateside lady was a speaker of religious matters and traveled for speaking engagements around the country at different churches. The other one was a Buddhist novice who was working on becoming a monk. Maybe all religion is a fairy tale made by those who want to control or maybe there are things we will never know until we arrive there; up to those who care or want to find their own path and way to happiness.

Many religions around this big world and all claim miracles but to my knowledge only one has claimed he died for your sins while many soldiers have died for your countries borders and policies; one thing for sure........ one day we will find out after we take our last breath. I am not to worried about it, what will be will be.

If we wish to look at the spiritual side and say all are created equal in the eyes of God (depending on the brand of spirituality we use.) we also must consider what happens after the initial creation. So many who are pro-life or pro-choice focus only on the birth, not what comes afterwards. A mere 9 months are considered there versus an entire lifetime.

After a particularly "feel good" sermon, we spent time in fellowship and discussion in our fellowship center. In a conversation with the pastor, a good friend of mine, the question was asked about God creating us in perfection. The intention was good, to make people feel value and worth after being created by God, who didn't make mistakes. After thinking for a moment, my response was "The craftsmanship was good, but the upkeep has been lacking". A look of understanding came over the pastor's face, consideration of a concept that hadn't been considered before and resulted in following sermons in weeks to come.

Of course, since it was at church and focused on the physical, I didn't bring genetics or family situations or health of the parents into it as that was not the intention. This was spiritual, not physical, but we live in a physical world. What our parents do, even before our birth affects us greatly. How they raise us affects us greatly, it forms who we are, it determines our lifespan to a great degree. Spiritually, we may be created equal, but physically, we are not.

I find it interesting that the term "born with a silver spoon" was made common earlier in the same century. I see the statement that "all men are created eqaul" as a direct retalliation to that very phrase. It was a political statement, declaring independence from the crown, from the silver spoon group. They were saying "you are not above us, we do not bow to you, we are your equal, not your subjects".

If it had been a sociological statement, women would have been included, other races would have been taken into consideration, many other factors would have been addressed. However, sociologically, there is not equality and there never will be equality. As long as there are birth defects, sill births, miscarriages, genetics and so on, there will not be equality. The financial situation of the parents play a huge role, the parenting ability plays a huge role. Equality does not exist in the physical realm.

Depending on some spiritual views, it doesn't exist there either. Only in the idea that the laws apply to everyone and there is no hierarchy does the idea of equality exist. However, it didn't exist back then (women, slaves, etc) and it doesn't exist now (99%'s, class warfare, etc). It was a political statement being made against the King of England declaring we would not serve him and a direct blow to those "born with a silver spoon". Instead of living up to it, we merely produced our own spoons and distributed them accordingly creating a new "ruling class".

reply to post by L8RT8RZ


You should read what Thomas Sowell has written on this matter in his book "Intellectuals and Society". It will set you on the right path.

reply to post by L8RT8RZ


I think that the idea that all men/women are created equal is a goal we should all strive for but, sadly, we are a long way from that.

Originally posted by 11235813213455
reply to post by L8RT8RZ

 

You should read what Thomas Sowell has written on this matter in his book "Intellectuals and Society". It will set you on the right path.

Or you could watch this informative video discussing the matter.

reply to post by L8RT8RZ


You miss the whole point of equal.. but I can see how you come to that conclusion and you would be right, if that is the equality they are talking about.

Originally posted by votan
reply to post by L8RT8RZ

 

You miss the whole point of equal.. but I can see how you come to that conclusion and you would be right, if that is the equality they are talking about.

edit on 24-12-2012 by votan because: (no reason given)

edit on 24-12-2012 by votan because: (no reason given)

It doesn't matter what equality WE talk about, the equality the framers talked about is the key.

reply to post by L8RT8RZ


OP, you're confusing "potential" with probability, if your parents bring home $500l/year vs someone whose parents bring home nothing more than a welfare check and a bag of meth, you both still have the same "potential." humans are known for overcoming odds. Hell, the very nature of probability and "odds" dictates this. The "silver spoon" kid might have a 10000x higher likelihood of living at least a decent, middle-class life, free of mental illness and drug addiction, but even at that, 1:10,000 of the silver spoons will grow up to be a poor, meth-addicted nutcase, while 1:10,000 of the welfare meth babies will overcome his/her parents failures and become a successful, well-adjusted adult.

This is why I'll feel sorry for people with effed up parents for awhile, but by age 25-ish, even if you faced tougher circumstances than most, if you haven't overcome those odds, then you have chosen your own path.

To sum it up - all are created with relatively equal potential (not in all things, but in general life success I guess you'd call it.) no, a 5'2" person with MS is highly unlikely to win an NBA dunking contest, but that doesn't mean that person can't be just as happy, successful, and well-adjusted as someone who is 6'6" with a strong bone structure. It is the set of probabilities we are gifted our cursed with from our parents and influencers that varies.

It's not so much the point you're making that's wrong, it's the words you're using and the understanding of them. Confusing potential with probability, however, is a grave mistake, which can. Easily affect one's total understanding of the world aand people around you.

Originally posted by jiggerj

When this was written, there was still slavery.

reply to post by L8RT8RZ

 

And a couple hundred years later our DNA shows that blacks with a direct lineage back to Africa are 100% human, while everyone else on the planet is 96% human and 4% Neanderthal. Ironic huh?

Wait...is that real, or was that a future theoretical irony? If true, not being a full Homo Sapien (human), I hereby declare myself free from the laws of man (though knowing I could be slaughtered by a human and they would just have to pay a small "property replacement" fine is disconcerting, to say the least!