Time to bring back Corporal punishment?

reply to post by BigBrotherDarkness


I just checked out the Government website here and too some degree, its still legal.

The degree of physical punishment that a parent or carer can use with a child is subject to legal regulation in Australia. In most states and territories, corporal punishment by a parent or carer is lawful provided that it is carried out for the purpose of correction, control or discipline, and that it is "reasonable" having regard to:

■the age of the child;
■the method of punishment;
■the child's capacity for reasoning (i.e., whether the child is able to comprehend correction/discipline); and
■the harm caused to the child (Bourke, 1981).

Corporal punishment that results in bruising, marking or other injury lasting longer than a 24-hour period may be deemed to be "unreasonable" and thus classified as physical abuse. As an example, the New South Wales Crimes Act 1900 (NSW) establishes that corporal punishment is unreasonable if the force is applied to any part of the head or neck of a child or to any other part of the body of a child in such a way as to be likely to cause harm to a child that lasts for more than a short period. Corporal punishment that is unreasonable in the circumstances may lead to intervention by police and/or child protection authorities.

Corporal punishment key issues Australia

reply to post by DarknStormy


I am glad you brought this up; I have heard the same thing. In some places it is already in effect; but I think removing a parent from the home; for a childs actions; when the parent can't correct their child because of the fine line of abuse...it gets sticky.

My son had to have time out; if he left the chair or threw a tantrum he got a gentle correction and put back in time out. when he self soothed and his mood changed...roughly 5 minutes the adult version is count to 10. We would ask him, why he did what he did and and if he understood why it was wrong.

They say spanking leads to hitting. I have to disagree; my son at 3 punched his mother hard in the knee out of the blue with a heavy plastic toy in hand and started laughing. His mother and I never argued once ever; we sat down as adults and took turns with an issue until we understood the others view point and where we were coming from.

So he didn't learn hitting it is inborn until you correct it. Two year olds start separating self from the parent, everything you want or say they want the opposite...its just forming a separate self not intentional its a step. The same thing happens in the teen years; except now they separate themselves emotionally, you battles are not theirs your way of doing things is not theirs...it's natural and if we can effectively deal with these two stages. People turn out ok for the most part...even when not people still can get it but; it a developmental delay.

Originally posted by DarknStormy
reply to post by BigBrotherDarkness

 

I just checked out the Government website here and too some degree, its still legal.

The degree of physical punishment that a parent or carer can use with a child is subject to legal regulation in Australia. In most states and territories, corporal punishment by a parent or carer is lawful provided that it is carried out for the purpose of correction, control or discipline, and that it is "reasonable" having regard to:

■the age of the child;
■the method of punishment;
■the child's capacity for reasoning (i.e., whether the child is able to comprehend correction/discipline); and
■the harm caused to the child (Bourke, 1981).

Corporal punishment that results in bruising, marking or other injury lasting longer than a 24-hour period may be deemed to be "unreasonable" and thus classified as physical abuse. As an example, the New South Wales Crimes Act 1900 (NSW) establishes that corporal punishment is unreasonable if the force is applied to any part of the head or neck of a child or to any other part of the body of a child in such a way as to be likely to cause harm to a child that lasts for more than a short period. Corporal punishment that is unreasonable in the circumstances may lead to intervention by police and/or child protection authorities.

Corporal punishment key issues Australia

Which government? If it is the US then state law will over ride this unless; the case goes to a higher court. You'd have to really really believe in spanking to plead not guilty and spend a lot of money to take it higher, just to win your case. But that is only good for one count. But I think if court or other authority has to step in at all; the person is way way way over the line of correction and well into abuse at that point.

reply to post by BigBrotherDarkness


Its for Australia.. People still think twice about it though. There is a fine line and the after effects are out of your control even if you are trying to do the right thing.

reply to post by DarknStormy


Oh man, that's another one to consider...getting the jollies from it. One of my friends daughters got spanked; then one day her daughter said mommy spank my butt! She said what? She said spank my butt! She said why? did you do something bad? She said no it feels good. I said maybe you should consider time out as an option at this point...I forgot about that until you mentioned the jolly factor. That was a very awkward moment...I wanted to crawl under the couch. My friend said; after the daughter was out of ear shot...Oh my god; I have turned my daughter into a freak.

Originally posted by BigBrotherDarkness
reply to post by DarknStormy

 

Oh man, that's another one to consider...getting the jollies from it. One of my friends daughters got spanked; then one day her daughter said mommy spank my butt! She said what? She said spank my butt! She said why? did you do something bad? She said no it feels good. I said maybe you should consider time out as an option at this point...I forgot about that until you mentioned the jolly factor. That was a very awkward moment...I wanted to crawl under the couch. My friend said; after the daughter was out of ear shot...Oh my god; I have turned my daughter into a freak.

That would be different and confusing..

Heres a bit more info.. I just noticed that the USA isn't on the list. Is this because of state legislation?

The international picture

Internationally, 23 countries have prohibited corporal punishment in all settings in legislation: Austria (1989); Bulgaria (2000); Costa Rica (2008); Croatia (1998); Cyprus (1994); Denmark (1997); Finland (1983); Germany (2000); Greece (2006); Hungary (2004); Iceland (2003); Israel (2000); Latvia (1998); Netherlands (2007); New Zealand (2007); Norway (1987); Portugal (2007); Romania (2004); Spain (2007); Sweden (1979); Ukraine (2003); Uruguay (2007); and Venezuela (2007). Corporal punishment is prohibited in Italy (1996) and Nepal (2005) by Supreme Court ruling (but not legislation) (Global Initiative to End All Corporal Punishment of Children, 2008).

Within these countries, the process of abolishing all corporal punishment typically began by legislating against the use of corporal punishment in schools. This was followed by the removal of the parental defence of "lawful correction" or "reasonable chastisement" from relevant criminal codes and finally the introduction of explicit bans on the use of corporal punishment in relevant civil codes. A number of other countries have partially abolished the use of corporal punishment in one or more settings and have expressed a commitment to enacting full prohibition (see Global Initiative to End All Corporal Punishment of Children 2008 for an overview).

reply to post by DarknStormy


Interesting; what the UN stance is from your link: Corporal punishment is defined by the UN Committee on the Rights of the Child as:
"any punishment in which physical force is used and intended to cause some degree of pain or discomfort, however light."

It seems policy in the US is following the UN standard. But it isn't intended to cause pain; it is intended to correct behavior so I dunno.

There is a state map there too; so it goes state to state for law, It does not mention the US government stance on it...but if schools are funded by the government, and their policies fit more towards that of the UN, then I am inclined to believe the government ads pressure to that policy; so I am sure every school district handles discipline differently.

I am a former teacher (8th grade English taught for seven years during the late 60s and early 70s) and a parent of two sons now in their 30s.

I spanked my children but if I had it to do over again I would not. I am now the grandmother of one two year old and I rejoice in the chance to use what I learned as a parent.

Spanking serves one purpose: It vents the anger and frustration of the parent. In my case, it was a perfectionist parent. I'm still a perfectionist and it is something I'm working on to channel in constructive ways without being too rough on myself and everyone who comes in contact with me.

Children are a reflection of the society they're raised in and society is a reflection of the individuals in that society. I think what is needed to improve the behavior of society is for each of us as individuals to change what we can about ourselves by unlearning misconceptions and replacing them with new-found knowledge and ideas.

I think the adults in society merely need to set an example for the children and things then fall into place naturally. No need for corporal punishment.

Corporal punishment is the tool of weak teachers and weak parents who can't assert their authority without violence. I tutor disadvantaged children that most schools view as a lost cause. Grades 4-12. They are violent. They are loud. They are angry. And I have helped over 80 of the older students graduate on time with the lowest GPA being 3.4. Half of them have gone on to flagship state schools, a handful are in top 20 colleges now. These are children growing up in horrible parts of Atlanta exposed to drugs, crime and poverty the likes of which most people can't even conceptualize. You know what I haven't done to any of them? Spanked them. Hit them.

If you want to fix children, fix yourself. These days, a teacher's job is hard. They have to actually PAY ATTENTION to the needs of 30+ children at a time. Most don't do this. Not because they are terrible people, but the changed nature of the job means that only truly excellent and intelligent people succeed in changing the lives of their students.

These children want attention and to be treated with respect. They are growing up faster than any generation before them because of the sheer amount of information (whether it is good or bad) available to them. An average person has trouble understanding the changing nature of each generation. You see this in how just about every older generation thinks the one that comes after it is worse in some way shape or form. It is not worse, it is simply different and the fault lies with the parents and teachers being unwilling or unable to adapt.

You want to fix society? Make anyone who has any contact with children become educated in pedagogy, child psychology, effective teaching methods, the role and rules of self-confidence (no child should ever be able to make you angry. You are a freaking adult), non-verbal communication, literature, philosophy... As Socrates said the unexamined life is not worth living.

Corporal punishment is a relic. If you want to fix what is wrong with schools and children these days, fix your own ass first. This is not the 60's. Every last bit of information one could possibly need to become an expert on children is available online. WE are their examples. WE are their role models. We adults need to be better than we are before we can fix anything. Does corporal punishment work? As the OP said, yes, we are beasts. If you want our children to be as docile as a trained monkeys, or no better than the last generation; by all means, continue. Instead, if you want our children to go out there and kick the world in the ass, conceptualize and begin development on a semi-autonomous robot using Arduino, and pick up a second language (both of these things from the same FOURTEEN year old former drug runner, by the way), then you are going to want to treat them like humans. Not monkeys.

When I was raising my kids I read a book about self esteem that I thought was excellent.

I remember that there were four things that every child needs growing up in order to have a healthy self-image, which is required if a person is going to grow into a responsible adult who contributes to society rather than detracts from it.

They are:

1. A sense of uniqueness - how am I different from everyone else?
   
2. A sense of some power - what decisions can I make at my age?
   
3. A sense of values - what is important in life?
   
4. A conscience - what do I owe my fellow humans?
   

It's been many years since I read this book and this is my paraphrase from what I recall.

The school system cannot correct the errors that are made by parents. I think the key to improving society lies with parents, and I think books like the one I just described can help us improve how we raise children.

reply to post by Mary Rose


That is a nice list Mary Rose; I suppose it all distills down to how to make children aware, that the universe does not revolve around them, or does anyone else or even law for that matter.

I never have lain a hand on my son with any force; except to pat him on the back or high 5 as in good job; and encourage him. His mother didn't seem to have the same patience; to stop turn him around and put him back in time out, every time he left it in a tantrum, like I did.

Impressionable people mimic quite a bit; children are especially susceptible, when no one else has the time or patience to show teach them otherwise.

I WAS not suggesting people spank the children...that's why I titled rant this as a question. And as many intelligent people there are at ATS; I figured there must be a solution that can be implemented that comes from and understanding of why, and how many kids today are defiant; that find humor in the suffering of others, and seem to lack care for anyone but number one...themselves.

Perhaps it is letting moments; like when my son smacked his mother; with the toy and started laughing slip by. When children are reality testing, and learning those important socialization steps...for what is appropriate and inappropriate; given a situation. I agree spanking isn't the way to go; if you spank out of frustration, there is impression left to hit something, or someone, or themselves when frustrated...it's a poor coping mechanism against frustration, but with time things to change so there's always hope.

Thanks for everyone's input and sharing so far.

Originally posted by BigBrotherDarkness
. . . many kids today are defiant; that find humor in the suffering of others, and seem to lack care for anyone but number one...themselves.

Could this be a result of hours and hours and hours of video games and television?

reply to post by strings0305


It sounds like you teach at an alternative school; where the students have already pushed the public one, to it's legal limit...there's more incentive for those students to try; because they see that what they pulled in public school, isn't going to get them anywhere at that point. The children that have transferred back to public school; from alternative school in my GF classes make the best students.

She used to teach at an alternative school in Detroit; before funding ran out and it had to close. She does very well, in her school now; the main issue there is administrators and councilors, do not take offences seriously unless it is drugs or fighting...they even shrug off threats to the teachers, two teachers left this year due to no support for following discipline procedures. One had a mental breakdown, and took a job outside of teaching, and another that was their only phd holding teacher; for constantly being disrespected and threatened and administration not doing anything about it; unless it comes to blows.

Kid's think respect is earned not given; most of the kids, are looking for respect or street cred from their peers; not adults...and do this by attacking teachers etc. when they push beyond that point; they end up in the the law enforcement mandated alternative school system; where all a teacher there has to do is; call administration and an officer will come pick them up; for violating the terms to be there.

So step back and take a larger look at the picture if you haven't; and if you do not work at an alternative school; and have an administration and councilors; that back up it's teachers...then consider yourself lucky. It is not universal.

reply to post by BigBrotherDarkness


You are advocating corporal punishment in the school system?

reply to post by Mary Rose


I think some influence does but ends at an early age; I thought I was a pro wrestler on the play ground, one drop kick put me in the principals office...where I learned the difference. It's reality testing...I think young children do not understand the concept of tv and games; that it isn't real. Perhaps my son saw cartoon violence and acted it out...

The influence of reality testing behavior is a short one. Of course quality time and activities, with children is the best thing for them. Unfortunately; a lot of parents are self centered and the child is now in their world and has to fit into it. The day my son was born; I dropped all of the nonsense of having my own life anymore...it was all about him, and taking care of my responsibilities to make sure he was raised, loved, healthy, happy and well adjusted. His mother my ex wife; could not do that, she had done that to please her parents...so she all of a sudden felt trapped. So I took care of our son; while she played a game of catch up on what she missed out on.

During her months of play catch up; and live a little drinking and partying she cheated on me. I asked her what she wanted to do, and she said I can't live with the constant guilt and self hated I feel for myself; every single time I look at you, I don't deserve all you have done...I urged her to get counseling, she started seeing a therapist and taking an antidepressant; while I continued caring for our son. She felt it best we divorce; I agreed so that she may recover quicker and get a better handle on herself. We are still friends, that's how we started out anyway...college was done and her parents health were failing and they desperately wanted a grand child. Out of the blue one day she asked me to marry her...I was taken aback but thought why not? I found out after the divorce that is was a scheme to get a grand child for her parents...and I was the most together, stable candidate for the job; plus we got along really well.

I can see how hard all of that guilt weighed on her; so that's what we chose. Any talks we have are centered around our son; his growth and well being and nothing else.

I didn't mean to drop so much personal information; out in the open like that. But it makes the point of; children are more important than some self satisfaction and indulgence. I think that's one of grandparents favorite things they get to do; they have more time to indulge, and encourage...I am not a grand father yet; but that's my take on the grand parent/grandchild thing.

But to the original question, the acting out influence of tv and games is short and limited. Testing very young children would say it does...older after reality testing inconclusive. The influence after that; is just for fun it's acting and for pretend...they don't think they are the characters they emulate as very small children believe.

If a child cannot tell the difference yet between reality and pretend...then I think it's not a good influence until that stage of development occurs where they know whats real and whats not.

reply to post by Mary Rose


I guess, I was more at a loss of how kids are just running amok; killing other kids...and what can be done about it. That was the first thing that popped in my head. I gave the side of what friends and family; have to say about it, and their theories, of what would work. I obviously have my own ideas which I have stated; but not every parent can or will sit down and take the time to engage their kids...

If they are leaving it up to schools; or distorted in their methods...look at what we get. So, it was more of a feeling it all out...to establish some sort of theory of what will work.

I don't know if that has been reached because; now that the general belief and experience of those around me..and myself are out there. It is still a boggling topic...how can the public not children's peers educate them when a parent won't or refuses too. Leave it up to the system I guess and cross our fingers...seems to be the current answer.

I ranted because I am saddened; that every kid can lose their potential...because some parents prefer to focus on other things, less important than their children's growth as a human being.

reply to post by BigBrotherDarkness


In my opinion, the violence (and sex) that is in the popular culture is a huge problem not just for children but for adults. So, I disagree with you.

I'm not saying there should be no violence shown if the theme of the film or whatever is worthwhile and clearly evident to the viewer. But I don't think that's what we have. I think we have media that wallows in violence for entertainment. At least that's the impression I have. I'm not watching these films myself. This is what I'm picking up from ads I involuntarily get exposed to.

reply to post by BigBrotherDarkness


We are living in a sick society which is disintegrating before our eyes. The government is corrupt to the core. There is a shadow government that runs the world behind the scenes by way of deception.

Corporal punishment is not the answer. The answer is going to come slowly as the masses wake up to the deceptions of the powers that be and find the wherewithal somehow to collectively stop going along with things in all areas of society that are not in our best interest.

Originally posted by Mary Rose
reply to post by BigBrotherDarkness

 

We are living in a sick society which is disintegrating before our eyes. The government is corrupt to the core. There is a shadow government that runs the world behind the scenes by way of deception.

Corporal punishment is not the answer. The answer is going to come slowly as the masses wake up to the deceptions of the powers that be and find the wherewithal somehow to collectively stop going along with things in all areas of society that are not in our best interest.

Agreed; waking people up to reality, has been a movement for well over 2500 years...so living as an example and honest advice when asked free of dogma helps. All a person can do is point to the exit once they see the fire; its up to others to see the fire, then see your finger, then see the exit to escape. You can't really force that awakening on anyone...it comes with time and wisdom.