Dunblane School Massacre....ended handgun rights in UK

Originally posted by Honor93
reply to post by SpearMint

 

what kind of logic is this ??
either cars and deaths from them are comparable or they're not.
it doesn't apply when YOU want it to, get real.

and no, guns moving around on the streets is the SAME as cars moving around on the streets ... NOT parked

as for how many parked cars kill ppl ... i'd bet more than guns.
ppl hit parked cars allll the time, some die, some don't.

speculation, speculation ... try some reality, eh?

so you say, yet, you do it anyway

... remarkable.

I haven't compared them to benefit my case, all along I've shown why it's stupid to do so. You don't read much do you?

I'm really not interested in arguing with you, you're not someone that can understand a logical analogy as demonstrated in this post. It's boring and pointless, as well as a waste of my time. You can reply if you feel as though it makes you look like you came out on top though.

reply to post by Merriman Weir

excuses, excuses.
you asked for the differences in the result of ownership.
not differences in management of ownership.

can't you stay focused ?

Originally posted by Merriman Weir

Originally posted by NavyDoc

Considering that there is no difference between issued ammunition and non-issued ammunition other than who pays for it, someone with ill intent could easily go down to the gun shop and buy the ammuntion to load into his assualt rifle

Serious question: have you got any numbers on the amount of people doing this?

and go on a rampage, but they don't.

And again, I want to know they don't in Switzerland but they do in America.

I don't understand the question. In Switzerland a private citizen can own a semi-auto AR-15 and can go down to the store and buy ammo. This is the same cartrige that their issue Sig's use. If an individual wanted to use his issue assault rifle to go on a rampage, he could easily buy the ammo he needed even if it was not issued. That ammo is not issued (only since 2007--it was issued for home storage up until that point and there still were not rampages in Switzerland up to that point so the comment on the peaceful Swiss will all their home machine guns is still quite valid) is not relavent since they can just nip down to the shop and get the ammo.

In America there are millions and millions of "assault weapons" but only a tiny minority are used in murders. In fact, long arms--rifles like the AR-15 are rarely used in murders. If you think about it, it makes sense: you can't conceal a 3 foot long 7 pound piece of metal. They are expensive and require maintenance. They are loud...you are more likely to be heard. They leave evidence in the form of shell casings. And for forth.

reply to post by michael1983l

then what were the Ottomans, a stepping stone ?

Originally posted by Honor93

 

the links included in the OP specifically mention the 2010 Cumbria shootings but you seem to think they don't count, why ?

Again, the Cumbrian shootings were committed by an ordinary, and quite pleasant fellow, who LEGALLY owned his guns, who had easy access to said weapons, he just couldn't cope with some of lifes pressures and he snapped.

It isn't the criminals committing these massacres, it is the normally law abiding citizens with easy access.

Originally posted by Honor93
reply to post by KingIcarus

 

on the contrary, BIG reach.
gun violence is gun violence regardless who the victims are.

the statement was quoted and a question asked.
any chance you'd actually answer the question posed ?

you are connecting the school shootings with "poverty" driven shooters and i disagree, capice ?

Sorry, I've been into town to collect a Christmas gift.

No, I'm not connecting the school shootings to poverty at all. I'm connecting other gun crimes to poverty - the burgler who breaks into your house carrying, the guy holding up a store. A lot of that is pure greed, but it's also a 'solution' to poverty in the criminals eye.

Anyhow, we're going in circles here so I'm going to pull out of this. Ultimately I think our American cousins need to take a bit of a look about how they deal with guns, but you folks are free to do what you want. I love America and Americans, I just don't like seeing people hurt unnecessarily which is - I'm afraid - what happens!

I'll never understand those sausage links on a stick with blueberry pancakes around them though. And you call yourselves civilized.

Originally posted by SpearMint
reply to post by Honor93

 

Yeah, once, comparing it to the school massacre that the OP was about. I'm not interested in arguing about this petty and insignificant issue that you created, or even reading your whole post. I told you what I meant, done. Move on.

Also, the population has risen by quite a few million.

edit on 17-12-2012 by SpearMint because: (no reason given)

so, i provide the 'stats' you demanded and rather address the TRUTH, you go on some temper tantrum about an insignificant issue
are you a Brit ??
i'm guessing not cause the ones i know have a much tougher skin and can hold their own in a battle of wits. at least they seem to be adequately armed

reply to post by woogleuk

It isn't the criminals committing these massacres, it is the normally law abiding citizens with easy access.

again this is why comparing the two is pointless ... that isn't relfective of our problem/situation/shooters.

nor is the poverty issue.
it's kinda tough to be in a state of poverty and possess a few thousand dollars worth of firepower

Originally posted by woogleuk

Originally posted by Honor93

 

the links included in the OP specifically mention the 2010 Cumbria shootings but you seem to think they don't count, why ?

Again, the Cumbrian shootings were committed by an ordinary, and quite pleasant fellow, who LEGALLY owned his guns, who had easy access to said weapons, he just couldn't cope with some of lifes pressures and he snapped.

It isn't the criminals committing these massacres, it is the normally law abiding citizens with easy access.

He left the realm of normal the second he went off.

A gun massacre (altho not a school) ended gun rights in Australia also as I recall.

Originally posted by SpearMint

Originally posted by Logarock

Originally posted by SpearMint

Originally posted by Logarock

Originally posted by SpearMint

Originally posted by Logarock

Originally posted by SpearMint

Originally posted by NavyDoc

Originally posted by SpearMint

Originally posted by KingIcarus
So? Less people get shot with handguns now. We haven't had a school shooting either.

It does still happen, of course, but when it does it's news because it's rare.

Suits us just fine.

Not that rare. In the US there was two in 2012, one in 2008, 2007, 2006, 2005, two in 2001, one in 1999, two in 1998. Before then it gets a little rarer, it seems like it's becoming more and more common, as are massacres not in a school.

And yet, we have more gun control in that timeperiod than any other in the past, indicating that more laws just don't do it.

It doesn't indicate that at all. Were people still allowed to own guns in that time period? Yep, and that is the result. Nearly all, if not all of these massacres are done with a legally owned gun.

edit on 17-12-2012 by SpearMint because: (no reason given)

So is that an indictment on legal gun ownership? What sort of stupid logic is that?

In the last two cases in this country the guns were stolen.

When talking about the US, the last 2 gun massacres isn't a large sample size. Most are done with a legally obtained gun. Even if it is stolen, if that stolen gun was legally obtained they it wouldn't have happened if people weren't allowed to own them.

Well again the question.....is this an indictment of legal gun ownership?

Absolutely. If people don't own them, they can't be stolen or used for such things.

You are out of here with me. I gave you a shot at making a case. In the end you just dont believe there is such a thing as a right that makes gun ownership legit and that rights are handed out and that the rights of all can be pulled by the actions of a few. yep one of englands brainwashed sons.

You've missed every point that's been thrown at you and dismissed everything without making a valid point of your own. You've failed to see the very obvious logic pointed out in the post that you just replied to.

Thrown is right. Like see what sticks. In fact you sound like the run of the mill type thats losing the argument on your weak points ect.

I dont think you can compare USA with the UK and commonwealth counties. You got to remember how young the USA is.

For example the UK started restriction on guns and crossbows in the 1500's and has evolved ever since. That's a 100 years before USA was even a country.

It will take time.

*edit* sorry closer to 300 years before?

reply to post by tdk84


Yea they also banned bagpipes for awhile. An effort at cultural eradication. How did that turn out? And trying to eradicate the Welsh language. How did that go?

Originally posted by Logarock
reply to post by tdk84

 

Yea they also banned bagpipes for awhile. An effort at cultural eradication.

How did that turn out? And trying to eradicate the Welsh language. How did that go?

what's that got to do with anything , I'm stating the UK has been implement restrictions hundreds of years before America was even a country. Its going to take time for America to make changes, it will be slow, as it was in the UK.

You should check your history on Henry VII and his son in regards to the welsh language.

Originally posted by tdk84

Originally posted by Logarock
reply to post by tdk84

 

Yea they also banned bagpipes for awhile. An effort at cultural eradication.

How did that turn out? And trying to eradicate the Welsh language. How did that go?

what's that got to do with anything

, I'm stating the UK has been implement restrictions hundreds of years before America was even a country. Its going to take time for America to make changes, it will be slow, as it was in the UK.

You should check your history on Henry VII and his son in regards to the welsh language.

edit on 17-12-2012 by tdk84 because: (no reason given)

I will. What I do know is that in the 60s they were sending folks to jail over it.

reply to post by tdk84

I'm stating the UK has been implement restrictions hundreds of years before America was even a country.

which is exactly one of the reasons the US and the 2nd Amendment exist.
thank you very much i think we'll keep it for awhile.

Originally posted by Logarock

Originally posted by SpearMint
And it hasn't happened since.

Right. But to my point it was used to outlaw hand guns....and the laws stoped nothing.

edit on 17-12-2012 by Logarock because: n

True Kids still get stolen from schools by pedophiles and raped repeatedly untill they bleed to death, Kids still get stabbed to death at schools, Kids still get kidnapped by other kids and beaten to death at schools, Not many school children get shot if any anymore, but given the choice i'd rather have a couple of trained armed guards patroling the school grounds and a weapon in my own personal holster than an inept visual presence of a guard on minimum wage who just wants a place to kip till his shift is over.

I'd just like to share a couple points/ thoughts.

Firstly, you can own firearms in the UK if you live in a city. Whoever said this clearly doesn't know what they are talking about. Rifle ammunition and other section one ammunition (such as slugs) must be stored in a seperate locked case. Shotgun ammuntion can be stored more or less whever you like. No ammunition box is required. Once you have a shotgun certificate, you can own as many shotguns and cartridges as you want. Rifles are different as you have to provide a reason to own them and have access to land to use them on. You can own a shotgun as easily as you can own a passport.

With reagrds to the UK being free of gun crime, do read this and in particular the first part of the 'Impact and legislation' section.

en.m.wikipedia.org...

Also, the link below gives statictics showing the majority of gun crime takes place in London, Greater Manchester and the West Midlands. The majority of gun crime according to said link is carried out by 15-29 year olds using illegal weapons.

m.politics.co.uk...

I know Derek Bird used legally held firearms, and what he did was horiffic, but if the population was armed, do you not think someone could have stopped him? There are 1.8 million registered firearms in the UK. The majority in Devon and Cornwall. If all this talk of people going nuts with legal firearms because it is 'conveinient' is true, how, in my 24 years of living in Devon, have I not ever heard of a crazy person killing people locally? I think the news jump on the whole legally held thing to maybe drum up more anti gun support? Who knows.

I do, however, know Shaun Mercer and Raoul Moat didn't legally hold firearms, but both managed to kill with an illegal firearm. Or did that not happen, as the weapons used are banned? Also, if Chris Brown (the man Raoul Moat shot) had a gun in his house he legally held for self defence, do you not think he might stilll be with us? And PC Rathband would never have had his life ruined to the point where he could no longer continue? Moat managed to get hold of an illegal firearm two days afyer being released from prison. Prohibition works wonders eh?

I honestly believe if the laws favoured the victims of crimes and us lot inthe UK could own firearms for self defence, crime would drop. I think the very sight of an armed homeowner would be enough to send most burgalrs running without a shot being fired. The handgun ban was a knee jerk reaction and as a result of an isolated incident the law abiding are punished. People kill people. A gun is a piece of metal that is incapable of thought or action. I shall leave you all with this quote;

"If a cricketer, for example, suddenly decided to go into a school and batter a lot of people to death with a cricket bat, which he could do very easily, I mean, are you going to ban cricket bats?"

Prince Philip

Originally posted by mykingdomforthetruth

Originally posted by Logarock

Originally posted by SpearMint
And it hasn't happened since.

Right. But to my point it was used to outlaw hand guns....and the laws stoped nothing.

edit on 17-12-2012 by Logarock because: n

True Kids still get stolen from schools by pedophiles and raped repeatedly untill they bleed to death, Kids still get stabbed to death at schools, Kids still get kidnapped by other kids and beaten to death at schools, Not many school children get shot if any anymore, but given the choice i'd rather have a couple of trained armed guards patroling the school grounds and a weapon in my own personal holster than an inept visual presence of a guard on minimum wage who just wants a place to kip till his shift is over.

I agree.

reply to post by Vulcha


Give us the real story about arms in UK. Do handguns float around? Can you still get one if you really want one without bill knowing?

Living in the US for me it has been rare that anyone has even wanted to sell me a pistol. Only twice in my life as anyone offered to sell me a pistol without me asking and they were folks that I knew. I have never asked by the way. I know where the gun stores are at any rate.