Ban the Gun, Repeal the Second Amendment.

Originally posted by OtherSideOfTheCoin
****READ THIS UPDATE POST****

I think it is only fair to reflect based on the previous 30 or so pages of comments that have come up as a result of my OP. I am on ATS to learn and it is only right that I reflect on what I have learned and how my views have changed slightly.

Actually your post indicate the opposite. You do not learn with a closed mind filled with presuppositions... Your attempts at connection have failed because you entered this conversation now according to you with an intent to learn why you are right and gun control is necessary evil... if we Americans will only give up our outdated ways...

I have to give the brit here you some points for the ability to use doublethink with propaganda... you in fact left the interpretation open vague but loaded..

Let me start by saying the UK vs US argument has to stop, just because I am brattish does not mean you have to bombard me with UK crime and gun statistics we are not perfect, we still have crime I am not claiming otherwise so can these pointless arguments stop. Effetely you are saying “there is still some gun crime in the UK so we should keep our guns” its just silly because in the UK we don’t have several mass shootings each year. Furthermore the “British-bashing” is uncalled for, I have no issue with any of you personally even if you do disagree with me so please stop bashing me and my country. Just for the record, after the dumblane killings I singed a petition to ban hand guns, so don’t talk to me like I had no say in the matter.

Yes but this is two fold...

1)you linked the subject by mentioning your british... you made some reference imply low to none crime...

How many people in those crimes if they had been armed would be alive and unharmed?

You'll skip this question because it is inconvenient ... how about the rapes where if a woman had equalizer her dignity would still be intact..

Do you approve of the victimization of innocent?

Of note was the reference to northern Ireland... How did your gun control Laws work out for the irish... oh wait the are british subjects and not irish my bad...

2)good for you... you vote to bell the cat

Did you also sign the petition to make murder, rape, theft, and corruption...

Hows is that working out?

Now to get back on topic I think it is only right to admit that I can see some good points form the pro-gun crowd, such as pointing out that a ban would never work because of the volume of guns already in America and the argument about the “gun culture”. I personally do not believe that gun prohibition increased gun crime in the long term however I do believe that in the short term it would increase crime. I do also recognise that a gun can be a deterrent to crime I can accept and understand that as a counter argument to banning guns however I don’t think that it is fair as the deterrent of the crime is also the cause of so many horrid crimes but I can appreciate the argument.

You palmed the card I saw it pick them up I call Bravo Sierra ... good points then try to twist it ..

pick up the cards brit...

So if you recognize it deters crime this means you approve of the rapes and murders... Because by approving removing the determent you want the actions to take place..

BTW, long term statistics in one town prove you wrong... the town is mandatory carry ...really low crime...

With that being said I will now concede that an all-out gun ban in America would never work however I am still of the view that banning the gun should be the penultimate objective in an ideal world although there has to be a common sense approach, American will never accept an all-out ban on guns. As such I think what is needed is a ban on certain types of weapons, such as assault rifles and automatics with increasingly tougher rules in acquiring a gun further more I think it should become a matter for federal law and not state law.

Again with the double speak..

an all out ban would not work...
this is after you concede it is a determent'

but you want to disarm people.. most of your arguments seemed based on the fact you are afraid of the idea of someone being more powerful then you..

As for an ideal world... You are insane... The universe is full of predators and you want people to greet it with hope and change...



TBC

reply to post by ripcontrol


bc'in

As such I think what is needed is a ban on certain types of weapons, such as assault rifles and automatics with increasingly tougher rules in acquiring a gun further more I think it should become a matter for federal law and not state law.

Why?

I also think that british economy would be greatly improved if you fired then queen and royal family and took the money you pay as subjects in to the pockets of your honest politicians... They will spend the money boosting the economy...

No offense not intended, ... so in effect you want to disarm the american people... The rules on the books now are a violation of the constitution itself...

I will give you credit for your ability to double think it is quite amazing...

I think many of the pro-gun group are deluded, ultimately if a shooting is not able to go and buy a gun then he can’t use the gun to kill people. I accept that a gun is a tool, but it is a tool which only has one function, to kill another living being, it is an inherently evil tool. As such the claim that “guns don’t kill people, people do” is utterly absurd, a guns only function is to kill, that is what it is designed to do, kill so yes guns do kill people don’t hide behind the label of “tool” as it only makes you look like a tool.

Gun is tool

again with the doublespeak...

They put two gun in a room and pointed them at each other... guess what neither gun fired... why is that...

Gun function not to kill...
gun function is to direct result of explosive charge in ammo
Barrel take heat

What you mistakenly refer to actually is application of gun operational function by society not guns actual function

Even then you miss your target.. gun functions as force multiplier... what it is used for is determined by the user...

The reason most americans instinctual distrust your propaganda is because you insult us... You whole point is to say we can not be trusted...

Last time your king and royal with their subject support argued that, we kicked your arse... We supposedly did not know how to manage our own affairs.. could not be trusted to do it...

Another argument that I do not accept is that if you ban the gun then what a knife, a car, fatty foods is next. This is another false argument that comes back to the function of the gun a gun is designed to kill that is its sole function, that is what makes it different form a knife or a car is its inherent evil. You cannot say a tool that is designed to kill is anything other than evil when you watch the news and listen to the father of a 6 year old boy crying because an evil man used an evil tool to kill his innocent child. Defending the gun by claiming that it is just a “tool” and repeating the rhetoric of “what’s next” is not a valid argument and all it does is defend evil acts if you cannot see this then you are the “Sheeple”, you are the “brainwashed”. Not me, I am the guy telling you like it is, you don’t have to agree with me that guns should be heavily restricted but you cannot deny that a gun is evil when we have families panning funerals for their kids rather than planning Christmas for their kids

BTW, you alone do not get to decide the direction of the argument...

Again you are wrong the function of the gun versus operational function in society... an object can not be inherently evil otherwise they would have devised something to measure the evil particle

As for my concluding comment to to you rant...

I can say that as I watch the news...

Please note this is my opinion
IMO, at this moment I blame every liberal in the world for the death of 28 people.. You are 100% responsible for those deaths as if you pulled the trigger yourselves...

You will never be able to wash that blood off you hands.. You created a gun free zone where no one had any guns... yet left the innocent children undefended completely... completely .. If the teachers had been armed or allowed to carry firearms, there would be some more children celebrating christmas this year..

It is ok.. the parents will be able to hold the papers stating the school is a gun free zone

I wish to hell one parent would sue the state and federal government for violating their children's second amendment protections... they are dead because people like you wanted to feel safer and children paid the price for your opinion...

So no right now I do not like any gun control advocates because of the blood on your hands.. I do not know how you sleep at night

Originally posted by MrPlow
we need to start treating the causes of us wanting to murder each other as a public health crisis.
We breed these people. They didn't just happen to be where they're at because of their choices. WE create them.
You want to know who the monsters are? Go look in the mirror.

Been saying the same thing. People are afraid to admit that they're a part of the society that creates these individuals. Good luck brother, I'm with you on this. You're gonna catch flak from a bunch of people who are afraid to evaluate themselves beyond their own bloated ego and comfortable complacency.

reply to post by ZiggyMojo


Bloated ego? We are not the ones that look down our noses at people that have tools we may not need or want.

I don't need or own a bulldozer, bulldozers could cause carnage and destruction in the wrong hands, but I am not gonna try to tell people that do need and own bulldozers to give them up to make me feel better. If you don't want or need a tool, fine and dandy, don't buy one. Just don't make the retard assumption that because a tool is not needed in your tiny little bubble of a life, that it is not needed by everyone else in the world.

I will no sooner give up my guns, than I would give up my skill saw, nail guns, press drill, or any other tool that supports my livelyhood.

Originally posted by TKDRL
reply to post by ZiggyMojo

 

Bloated ego? We are not the ones that look down our noses at people that have tools we may not need or want.

I don't need or own a bulldozer, bulldozers could cause carnage and destruction in the wrong hands, but I am not gonna try to tell people that do need and own bulldozers to give them up to make me feel better. If you don't want or need a tool, fine and dandy, don't buy one. Just don't make the retard assumption that because a tool is not needed in your tiny little bubble of a life, that it is not needed by everyone else in the world.

I will no sooner give up my guns, than I would give up my skill saw, nail guns, press drill, or any other tool that supports my livelyhood.

I think you're missing the whole point. I own guns. I won't give them up. If guns were eradicated all over the world, I'd consider it. To be honest though, another weapon would be used so it doesn't do anything to remove them. I was saying that it's not about the guns. It's about the people and not just the murderer, but every single one of us that has created a society conducive of such heinous crimes. I removed the first part of the quote so it was a little clearer.

The bloated Ego reference is about people saying they're not responsible for what society produces. Those same people take part in society everyday but don't want to take any credit for the negatives of society. We're all a part of it.

I'm one of the most tolerant people you'll ever meet. It is hard for me to side with anyone on anything 100%. I always look at things from every perspective and I try my best to never look down my nose at anyone. I try to consider all possibilities.

reply to post by ZiggyMojo


Ok, that makes sense. All the people that live in barbaric, crime riddled societies do share the blame to some extent I suppose. I am just glad I don't live in such a place anymore. I lived in white plains for a while, what a nightmare. Never again, country life for me. I may have some aggressive and dangerous animals to keep an eye out for, but I don't have to worry about them breaking into my house at night or anything like that.

Originally posted by OtherSideOfTheCoin


Yes I do recognise that some have valid arguments for sticking with the status quo but for the most part this thread has been 40 pages of people saying “what about knifes”, “we need guns to protect us from tyranny” and “the second amendment says….” With the odd bit of “ahhh well in the UK” none of these I see as valid arguments.

No one cares what you deem to be valid or not. Your blatant bias isn't helping your case.

Validity must be looked at from an objective standpoint, such as

1. Why the 2nd amendment was written into our Constitution

2. Hypocrisy found within some of the anti gun crowd's arguments.

3. Trends resulting from gun bans anywhere in the world

There are valid arguments and counterarguments from both sides alike, as well as logically fallible arguments. But the arguments you listed are logically valid. They are based on facts, which is why you see them repeated.

reply to post by IkNOwSTuff


So, those listed countries are not varied???
Ok then.

Oh and I guess that never having been to England or Scotland, I can just categorize all people from there by my dealings with the RAF and SO, Downtown Abbey, Absolutely Fabulous and Austin Powers???
No, I would not, as I have never experienced the place.

Funny, as you do.

We have our guns because of England..

England doesn't want people owning guns because they don't want to loose their power again.

reply to post by ConspiraCity


England…..

So what about the rest of the UK.

Originally posted by detachedindividual


No, I don't like that someone is making up what I have said in previous posts to support their argument.

Making what up?? I re-posted your statements, with no change. You just don't like having your own words against you.

Originally posted by detachedindividual
When a person resorts to lying about what someone has said in a debate, you know they have already failed.

Lying about what?
Again, I re-posted your statements. You just don't like it.

Originally posted by detachedindividual
You have failed. Anyone can go back through this thread and see that I stated other nations do not have gun ownership like that of the USA. Anyone can read this. You then lied, and changed this, trying to state that I said no other nation has gun ownership.

Yes, other nations do have ownership like us, and far exceeds the US. I seem to recall that in several countries normal, everyday people can purchase items like RPGs and RPKs.
SO, you are wrong and have failed. There are other countries with ownership like that.

Oh, I get it, you are trying the whole numbers angle. Well, of course we show more guns owned, as I have yet to hear of any agencies like the BATF in the ME countries.
But, ignore that and lets then focus on percentages of crime with firearms.
Oh, there are what 20 other countries way ahead of us.

Originally posted by detachedindividual
Clearly, you are grasping at straws because you cannot defend your own argument against other points, so you make something to attack instead.

Grasping at what?? You know, is that whole pitch your last stand. Again, I am embarrassed for you.
The defending contract for Firearm rights and ownership is the law of the land.

Originally posted by detachedindividual
Please, if you have the gumption, tell me how you think the armed American people will defend against tyranny that includes hundreds of thousands of armed and trained troops, fighter jets, tanks, intelligence agencies, drones, chemical and biological weapons.

Oh, I have enough gumption for myself and maybe to hand you some as well.
Please, go back and look at history for any country that has had civil war or revolution.
Please, before you stick your foot in your mouth further, read up on Guerrilla Warfare and Tactics and do some research on Asymmetrical Warfare.
Oh, and please, maybe check the number of vets that are out and about these days, that I am sure an overwhelming amount of the able bodied would put up a great fight.

Originally posted by detachedindividual
I would like to see you deny that revolutions in other countries have come about not through gun ownership of the people, but through the defection of their own military and external arming by other nations.

Oh, ok. They were all won because of the defecting members. Sure sure.
Yes, history shows there were defectors. But, I guess that all the defectors took those scary jets and aircraft carries with them???
Yeah, ok then.
Oh, lets go down that path a little. With that, I guess that those sole defectors were the only ones that fought and won any engagement. Your SO right.

Originally posted by detachedindividual
I'd like to see you explain that those who wrote the 2nd Amendment somehow knew that their little pop-pop guns would evolve into weapons capable of murdering hundreds of people a minute, and that they were fine with that.

Do I need to take everything down to such a level???
Ever wonder why there is no mention of a Musket or Cannon in the 2nd Amendment????HHHMMM???
It can't be that it was not put in there, because the founders, knew, and taking SO much time to create that document, that there was an evolution process for things, like firearms.
Nah, it can't be that. Sure sure.

Originally posted by detachedindividual
The fact is, you're focusing on one little line of BS that you made up, to deflect from the fact that you cannot argue against facts and logic.

Oh, that is rich.
My retorts include your statements. And, include responses to your statements.

Yours, really don't.

Please, show me where I lied about your statements. I will happily respond and shred that as well.

reply to post by SaturnFX


I have mixed feelings on drivers licenses.
I see it for what it has become. It started out as a good idea, where people were certified to operate a vehicle on a public road. And now it has morphed into a system that is just another tool for the Govt to suck money from the person.
The state having the ability to force someone to renew something every 5 years or so, is just a revenue generator.

It, was a good intention that has paved its way to hell.
The same goes for background checks.
No where in the 2nd does it state it is a right, but for those that are this or that.
The background check does little, but check for legal statements of mental deficiency and criminal history.
Yet, they have no affect on those that are criminals, as they already operate outside the bounds of the law.

Originally posted by PsykoOps
Completely facista and tyrannical and armed citizens aren't doing anything to slow them down.

Yeah, great argument.
Just because they "aren't" doesn't mean that they can't, or wont.


I guess Finland has nothing going on, as you seem to interject so much in OUR business.

Originally posted by PsykoOps
reply to post by ripcontrol

 

Back in the day everyone was in equal terms in armament. There weren't tanks, fighters, drones, battleships, nukes etc. etc. So the modern day citizen no matter how armed to teeth is not even with the government. That's one reason why the argument against tyranny doesn't hold up.

Back in what day???

Oh, medieval times?? Like when people rebelled, having simple weapons, and going up against charging horses, cannon and catapults??
Or, like Feudal Japan, where about the same happened??
Or, how about the Revolutionary War, with Militia going up against the WELL armed and trained English Army.

SO yeah, it never works.

Originally posted by macman

Yes, other nations do have ownership like us, and far exceeds the US. I seem to recall that in several countries normal, everyday people can purchase items like RPGs and RPKs.
SO, you are wrong and have failed. There are other countries with ownership like that.

I don't know where you get from but the US has by far the highest per capita gun ownership in the world :-

en.wikipedia.org...

If you are going to argue pro gun you should at least check out the facts.

And what are the "several countries" where " everyday people can purchase items like RPGs and RPKs ?

reply to post by Alfie1


Oh, another Anti????

Geesh. Ok then.

I stated that we do in fact have higher private gun ownership.
I also stated that there are other places that have ownership like us.
Oh yeah, don't forget to add that other countries, like Iraq, Libya and Afghanistan don't have Govt accounting methods in place to track nor accurately state just how many firearms are in Country.

Oh want an RPG, go to many of the African Continent Countries.
Afghanistan as well, along side with Iraq.

Now are YOU going to argue Anti BS with ignoring this???

reply to post by Alfie1


From your source as well.

This article's factual accuracy is disputed. Please help to ensure that disputed statements are reliably sourced. See the relevant discussion on the talk page. (October 2011)

Now that is TOO funny.

Oh, did no one inform you that Wiki is not exactly the best place to pull sourcing from, as it is created by other internet users....

Many have hypothesized that we have a social problem in this country that leads to these heinous acts, and NOT a gun control problem. I concur with that line of thinking.....

But, I just don't see a legal solution that keeps the guns away from those who would use them on the innocent! How on earth would we determine who is capable of such atrocities, let alone who would carry out a determined plan to commit them?

I possess and maintain my weapons for one sole offensive purpose...They are a sound deterrent ,that if needed, could stop or immobilize an imminent threat to my family, my friends and neighbors, or myself...That's it!!! And, I have been given that right, by my God and my Country. Without that right, I would be reduced to simply using my own body to protect my loved ones, in a situation that required it. And, if that occured, I would only be able to protect them, once! And, having that numerical limit placed on my able-bodied duties would be, well...unacceptable!

reply to post by GoOfYFoOt


also if media were to encourage benevolence over evil more often it might help.

Originally posted by macman
reply to post by Alfie1

 

Oh, another Anti????

Geesh. Ok then.

I stated that we do in fact have higher private gun ownership.
I also stated that there are other places that have ownership like us.
Oh yeah, don't forget to add that other countries, like Iraq, Libya and Afghanistan don't have Govt accounting methods in place to track nor accurately state just how many firearms are in Country.

Oh want an RPG, go to many of the African Continent Countries.
Afghanistan as well, along side with Iraq.

Now are YOU going to argue Anti BS with ignoring this???

You are just repeating your error. There is no country in the world with private gun ownership like the US.

In response to my question about countries where you allege " everyday people " can buy RPGs etc you give me Afghanistan and Iraq. Insurgents and militants in those countries have RPGs but they didn't buy them from the local store. They were smuggled in from Iran, Syria, Pakistan.

You can't get away from the fact that the US is sitting on a mountain of privately held guns like nowhere else and you are paying for it with about 9 or 10,000 gun murders per year.