Ban the Gun, Repeal the Second Amendment.

Originally posted by FluffyCannibal
British gun control laws have been tightened since then - it was in the wake of the Dunblane massacre that our control laws became as strict as they are.

Actually, while there was a change to the classification system that effectively restricted most handguns, the system itself has not changed drastically. There was no real need to change it anyway as the problem wasn't with the system but with the fact the system was not correctly followed in the case of Hamilton. If it had been, then instead of a tragic shooting we would have been reading about Hamilton killing people with knives or machetes instead.

Incidentally, the firearm used in the recent incident appears to be an AR15. Did you know these are legal in the UK with one minor tweak? There are even competitions dedicated to them. With all these evil AR15s (and AK47s as well, in fact) floating around, when was the last one used in a shooting in the UK?

For those familiar with the platform, UK AR15s lack a gas port in the barrel. Otherwise it's identical to the US version.

Originally posted by OtherSideOfTheCoin

So here I am sitting watching the news, I see a young boy talking about how he “saw and heard” the bullets of a gun man. The headline below this innocent child’s face reads “27 people killed in Connecticut shooting, 18 children”.

I am not to beat about the bush hear but as a British guy looking in on this I am shocked, there have been more of these type of mass shootings this year than I can count. Every month I am seeing some state governor passing on his heartfelt condolences to the families of the dead.

How about this instead America rather than having your leaders “apologise” to all the dead families how about you do this? Get out of the Wild West and the 18th century and BAN THE GUN!!! You are not cowboys anymore, you are not John Rambo the British are not about to invade you.

For the “guns don’t kill people, people do”, stop hiding behind an old cliché, if you lot bothered with proper gun control I would not be watching this disturbing story.

To be clear, I am not saying ban all guns or ban the gun overnight, what I am saying is that you lot need to grow up and some proper gun regulation. You need gun reform, it’s very simple, none of you gun enthusiasts needs 40 guns with 1200 rounds of ammunition.

Stop hiding behind that ancient bit of paper, your constitution, you all need to grow a set and sort out your gun problem before you have anoter 18 dead kids, who knows next time it could be one of yours, I pray it is not and i pray for the families of those affected

Actually, America would be safer if the "gun control, repeal the second Amendment" crowd were rounded up and placed in interment camps, err controlled communities.

Why force psychopathic level of control on others when you can go live in a controlled community? But all it takes is for one to look at the UK and Europe to realize why certain types advocate for gun control. If no one has guns, then psychopathic monsters can just beat up whoever they want to. No only that, could you imagine the sheer level of fun people like the OP would have in utterly gutting what is left of our civil liberties?

Make no mistake about it, there are people who want to kill millions of American's in the leftist ranks. There are Europeans who want to utterly subjugate America like they did to Africa and Asia for over a Century. These people will say whatever sweet words, or take what moral high ground they can manufacturer to make us all completely and totally helpless.

I think this link, once you remove the gender focus and apply it to the gun snatchers will be most illuminating.
www.lovepanky.com...


P.S
The Constitution isn't some ancient archaic document, it is simply the best Constitution on the face of the Earth. Fairly straight forward, easy to understand and it is one of the few Constitutions that the power of governance comes from the people, not from the government to be doled out.

****READ THIS UPDATE POST****

I think it is only fair to reflect based on the previous 30 or so pages of comments that have come up as a result of my OP. I am on ATS to learn and it is only right that I reflect on what I have learned and how my views have changed slightly.

Let me start by saying the UK vs US argument has to stop, just because I am brattish does not mean you have to bombard me with UK crime and gun statistics we are not perfect, we still have crime I am not claiming otherwise so can these pointless arguments stop. Effetely you are saying “there is still some gun crime in the UK so we should keep our guns” its just silly because in the UK we don’t have several mass shootings each year. Furthermore the “British-bashing” is uncalled for, I have no issue with any of you personally even if you do disagree with me so please stop bashing me and my country. Just for the record, after the dumblane killings I singed a petition to ban hand guns, so don’t talk to me like I had no say in the matter.

Now to get back on topic I think it is only right to admit that I can see some good points form the pro-gun crowd, such as pointing out that a ban would never work because of the volume of guns already in America and the argument about the “gun culture”. I personally do not believe that gun prohibition increased gun crime in the long term however I do believe that in the short term it would increase crime. I do also recognise that a gun can be a deterrent to crime I can accept and understand that as a counter argument to banning guns however I don’t think that it is fair as the deterrent of the crime is also the cause of so many horrid crimes but I can appreciate the argument.

With that being said I will now concede that an all-out gun ban in America would never work however I am still of the view that banning the gun should be the penultimate objective in an ideal world although there has to be a common sense approach, American will never accept an all-out ban on guns. As such I think what is needed is a ban on certain types of weapons, such as assault rifles and automatics with increasingly tougher rules in acquiring a gun further more I think it should become a matter for federal law and not state law.

I think many of the pro-gun group are deluded, ultimately if a shooting is not able to go and buy a gun then he can’t use the gun to kill people. I accept that a gun is a tool, but it is a tool which only has one function, to kill another living being, it is an inherently evil tool. As such the claim that “guns don’t kill people, people do” is utterly absurd, a guns only function is to kill, that is what it is designed to do, kill so yes guns do kill people don’t hide behind the label of “tool” as it only makes you look like a tool.

Another argument that I do not accept is that if you ban the gun then what a knife, a car, fatty foods is next. This is another false argument that comes back to the function of the gun a gun is designed to kill that is its sole function, that is what makes it different form a knife or a car is its inherent evil. You cannot say a tool that is designed to kill is anything other than evil when you watch the news and listen to the father of a 6 year old boy crying because an evil man used an evil tool to kill his innocent child. Defending the gun by claiming that it is just a “tool” and repeating the rhetoric of “what’s next” is not a valid argument and all it does is defend evil acts if you cannot see this then you are the “Sheeple”, you are the “brainwashed”. Not me, I am the guy telling you like it is, you don’t have to agree with me that guns should be heavily restricted but you cannot deny that a gun is evil when we have families panning funerals for their kids rather than planning Christmas for their kids

reply to post by OtherSideOfTheCoin


I am kinda lost: you are either amazingly naive or equally stupid. Did any gun ban, in any country, including yours, manage to reduce murders and violent crime in general? I forgot a third option: you just want us to be as enslaved as you, the subject. Actually, that would explain a lot of your comrades' thinking: if we can't protect ourselves, let's nobody have this option. F@$#g cattle

Originally posted by OtherSideOfTheCoin
****READ THIS UPDATE POST****


Let me start by saying the UK vs US argument has to stop, just because I am brattish does not mean you have to bombard me with UK crime and gun statistics we are not perfect, we still have crime I am not claiming otherwise so can these pointless arguments stop. Effetely you are saying “there is still some gun crime in the UK so we should keep our guns” its just silly because in the UK we don’t have several mass shootings each year. Furthermore the “British-bashing” is uncalled for, I have no issue with any of you personally even if you do disagree with me so please stop bashing me and my country. Just for the record, after the dumblane killings I singed a petition to ban hand guns, so don’t talk to me like I had no say in the matter.

edit on 16-12-2012 by OtherSideOfTheCoin because: (no reason given)

edit on 16-12-2012 by OtherSideOfTheCoin because: (no reason given)

But you guys can sit here and throw out statistics,call us barbaric, say we are stuck in the past, oh and how we need to destroy the constitution because its an ancient piece of paper that you guys dont agree with...still!

reply to post by ruderalis1


I am speaking as a individual not a diplomatic representative of the UK banging on Obamas front door demanding he rip up the second amendment.

Contrary to what you may believe I am not “America-Bashing”, I am pointing out a flaw in your society that is undeniable, 20 families are not got have the patter patter of feed on Christmas morning in America because of an evil man with an evil gun. This is a thread about a problem in American society.

If you were to create a thread point out problems that UK has with say immigration or the solidarity of the union I would not then start a counter argument with you by bashing the Americans. It does not negate the point, the point is that you Americans have to sort out your gun problems.

Brit-Bashing is just a off topic distraction.

It's very simple. Ask yourself this question:

What happens when the only people that have guns are the criminals and the police?

Because criminals are so well known for upholding the law.

Originally posted by OtherSideOfTheCoin
****READ THIS UPDATE POST****

I think many of the pro-gun group are deluded, ultimately if a shooting is not able to go and buy a gun then he can’t use the gun to kill people. I accept that a gun is a tool, but it is a tool which only has one function, to kill another living being, it is an inherently evil tool. As such the claim that “guns don’t kill people, people do” is utterly absurd, a guns only function is to kill, that is what it is designed to do, kill so yes guns do kill people don’t hide behind the label of “tool” as it only makes you look like a tool.

Another argument that I do not accept is that if you ban the gun then what a knife, a car, fatty foods is next. This is another false argument that comes back to the function of the gun a gun is designed to kill that is its sole function, that is what makes it different form a knife or a car is its inherent evil. You cannot say a tool that is designed to kill is anything other than evil when you watch the news and listen to the father of a 6 year old boy crying because an evil man used an evil tool to kill his innocent child. Defending the gun by claiming that it is just a “tool” and repeating the rhetoric of “what’s next” is not a valid argument and all it does is defend evil acts if you cannot see this then you are the “Sheeple”, you are the “brainwashed”. Not me, I am the guy telling you like it is, you don’t have to agree with me that guns should be heavily restricted but you cannot deny that a gun is evil when we have families panning funerals for their kids rather than planning Christmas for their kids

edit on 16-12-2012 by OtherSideOfTheCoin because: (no reason given)

edit on 16-12-2012 by OtherSideOfTheCoin because: (no reason given)

If you can work out a way to convince deer to fall over dead without shooting them, then you might be on to something. Wait, what, killing people is not their only function? Or the myriad of benchrest rifles designed purely to make a little hole on a piece of paper 1000 metres away? If you spent more time in the thriving British shooting community and less time watching Rambo you might change your mind. Or maybe not.

To say that someone cannot be shot if a gun cannot be legally bought is ludicrous. I think I've already mentioned some people by name who were shot with illegal firearms. Very few legally held firearms are ever used in the commission of a firearms offence in the UK. Firearms are not only smuggled into the UK, they are converted here and increasingly made from scratch in underground workshops - in fact one of the better known firearms books written in recent times was by a British author demonstrating how to build a fully automatic firearm using standard components bought from a plumbing supply shop.

Focus your ire on the people committing the crimes. Focus police resources on tracking down and dealing with them. That will be far more effective than demanding ineffectual measures and ignoring the root causes of the problems.

Why do the right thing when the wrong thing makes for a better headline and is easier, cheaper and less hassle? Someone else can always mop up the mess later down the line. Sounds all very "new Labour" if you ask me

The British shooting community is widespread, very active and I am a proud to be a part of it. Considering the level of checks and assessments I had to go through in order to get a certificate, I can rightfully claim that I officially have it in writing that I am an upstanding, responsible, respectable and law-abiding member of the British public. How many in the anti-gun lobby could say that?

reply to post by EvillerBob

The British shooting community is widespread, very active and I am a proud to be a part of it. Considering the level of checks and assessments I had to go through in order to get a certificate, I can rightfully claim that I officially have it in writing that I am an upstanding, responsible, respectable and law-abiding member of the British public. How many in the anti-gun lobby could say that?

I don’t need a bit of paper to tell me I am a up standing citizen.

Originally posted by OtherSideOfTheCoin
reply to post by EvillerBob

 

The British shooting community is widespread, very active and I am a proud to be a part of it. Considering the level of checks and assessments I had to go through in order to get a certificate, I can rightfully claim that I officially have it in writing that I am an upstanding, responsible, respectable and law-abiding member of the British public. How many in the anti-gun lobby could say that?

I don’t need a bit of paper to tell me I am a up standing citizen.

Ah. You may think you are; I, however, know I am - and the police agree

reply to post by EvillerBob


Not to go off topic and I am not going to start a conversation about it but I once held Developed Vetting, so yes I do know i am up standing

Originally posted by OtherSideOfTheCoin
reply to post by EvillerBob

 

Not to go off topic and I am not going to start a conversation about it but I once held Developed Vetting, so yes I do know i am up standing

Fair enough. I like to raise the point because so few people have ever had to put themselves through the process. It always strikes me as odd that someone might try to tell me that I'm bad, evil, untrustworthy etc for owning a firearm, when they themselves have never had to submit to the level of scrutiny and testing that I have in order to get the certificate.

Who are YOU to tell ANYONE what they should or should not have? The constitution may just be a piece of paper to you, but your queen is just a wrinkled old woman to the rest of the world. It may not mean anything to you, but it means a lot to the people here whose ancestors fought and died for those rights. We aren't worried about the British invading, aside from being allies your country has been neutered by those in charge to the point where you aren't a threat. The second amendment wasn't created to fight foreign armies, it was put into place to keep the government in its place to prevent tyranny. Aside from all of that, banning guns will only keep them out of the hands of law abiding citizens. Criminals will have no problem getting them, they're criminals. They don't care about the law.

reply to post by EvillerBob


To be clear I am not calling you “evil”, I don’t think you’re going to take your gun into a school and kill kids.

I do however think that your guns are objects of evil because of their design and ultimate purpose, even if you never intend to use them to kill another human being that is what they’re designed to do.

Originally posted by OtherSideOfTheCoin
I do however think that your guns are objects of evil because of their design and ultimate purpose, even if you never intend to use them to kill another human being that is what they’re designed to do.

That's one point where I think most gun owners are going to disagree with you. A firearm isn't evil. It isn't good. It isn't anywhere in between, either. Its an inanimate piece of plastic, metal and wood, depending on the model.

Purpose and intent belong solely in the hands of the user.

Originally posted by OtherSideOfTheCoin
reply to post by EvillerBob

 

To be clear I am not calling you “evil”, I don’t think you’re going to take your gun into a school and kill kids.

I do however think that your guns are objects of evil because of their design and ultimate purpose, even if you never intend to use them to kill another human being that is what they’re designed to do.

I appreciate that you haven't, but others do.

As for the purpose? Yes, one of my rifles was built during WWII for the sole purpose of shooting people. It was never used in combat and now its sole purpose is to make holes in bits of paper. Nobody told the gun what it was supposed to be when it grew up. Now it is nothing more than a very well made target rifle.

Let's consider a different perspective. A kitchen knife is made to be used in the kitchen. If someone starts stabbing you with it, would you think "oh, well, it's sole purpose is a kitchen knife so it clearly isn't a weapon"? No, the purpose is determined by what the user is attempting to do with it.

Here's a question for you. If you or someone you care for was in a position where someone was trying to kill them (as unlikely as that situation should hopefully be) would you object to the aggressor being killed if it was the only way to defend yourself or your loved one?

Which other absolute right that Americans have is next? First Amendment? How about that pesky Fourth? The Second Amendment's whole existence is to protect those of the other 26. Read the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Not so much the individual words, but the phrasing. It's negative phrasing, or inward-pointing, designed specifically, not to give the citizens anything, but to prevent the government from gaining anything other than what is specifically laid out before them.

This is why it is so difficult to repeal an Amendment, because a repeal is a chink in our armor. The Second Amendment is our defense against them.

/TOA

reply to post by OtherSideOfTheCoin


well we no lojnger live in 18th century true we dont have foriegn arse holes trying and succeding us into letting replace are laws with their sharia law can you britons say the same no i thought not. you still have a monarch how quaint .you have gqve up so many of your freedoms in last century it is not funny. you got so mucj survelliance on public citizens it smacks of 1984 and v for vendetta try reading some works of your famous author allen moore .
yes we have gun violence but then so does england . its just reported more here

I can not see how gun control and people selling drugs is connected yes criminals use guns but the money involved in the drug trade is the reason people try so hard to get drugs. No one has a gun addiction. And the right to bare arms is a tricky subject but wat responsible person thinks they need an assault riffle to protect themselves when would u be carrying an ar-15 ( or whatever high powered riffle ) around with you. But i think america need to look at the bigger picture here 20 children died because a maniac was allowed to carry guns i no they was not his they was his mums but she had six why would u beed that many and all them rounds maybe it should be one gun per house hold and a limited amount of rounds.

reply to post by SolomonGrundy


If you cannot see the connection, here let me help you out.

The price of a gun in a free society, let's say the last top end rifle I bought, was $1,400. In a non-free society, where that gun is not allowed, it can be sold for at least double, more than likely more on the black market.

People run illegal things into non-free places, because the huge profit margin, makes it worth the risk in their mind. A kilo of cocain at the source costs a few hundred, in the US way more, just because it is illegal(guessing on the cost, I remember hearing that a kilo in the US is worth over $100,000 though, so even if they were paying $10,000 per kilo, that is $90,000 more). When alcohol was banned, it was the largest chunk of money that gangsters were bringing in.

There will always be a demand for guns, always. It will create a huge profit for gangs, they would not turn down the kind of money they could make running guns, hell they already do it now.

People in the country will never give our guns up, period. We protect ourselves, from dangerous animals, people, whatever, not rely on someone else to do it. I know being self reliant is an alien concept for some people, especially those in cities, or on tiny island countries.

Guns puts food on the table as well. As much as I love bow hunting for deer, I would not be bowhunting a rabbit, or a moose, I certainly won't be shooting at the giant coyotes or bear with a bow.