Ban the Gun, Repeal the Second Amendment.

reply to post by SPECULUM

Guns don't kill people, governments do

and just how did the government kill all these kids

Originally posted by macman

Originally posted by detachedindividual]

Oh, Africa, where there are guerilla attacks on villages as routine, women gang raped at gunpoint, child soldiers... yeah, that's a real valid comparison!

Oh, so NOW they do have gun ownership there.
Which is it???

Originally posted by detachedindividual]
Other nations are irrelevant, they clearly don't have the culture that breeds violence and mental instability as the USA does.

Oh, so NOW other nations aren't relevant.
Again, which is it???
You are going to compare the US to other nations, but don't like it when it is turned onto you in retort.

Originally posted by detachedindividual]
It doesn't matter how many countries allow guns, how many there are in the population, or who owns them. It matters that in the USA there are military grade weapons on the streets, and that idiot Americans excuse that by quoting outdated statements written by people who could not have possible foreseen how their country would develop, or how those weapons would develop.

Oh, so it is just due to American Made Weapons that are reflective of Military style arms.
Or, now it doesn't matter about other countries. Again, I am embarrassed for you. Would you like to start your statements over in this thread?

Hey, got a question for you. How many violent crimes are committed with the Military style rifles that you seem to have a hard on about, over say a pistol?

Originally posted by detachedindividual]

So you think war zones are an adequate comparison? You do realize that many African nations are in a state of meltdown with gun violence and guerilla warfare?

SO they DO have guns.
That is nice.

Originally posted by detachedindividual]
So what's your point here? You're suggesting that it's okay for Americans to own these kinds of weapons because unstable and violent countries have them?

Nope.
All that is needed is the pesky 2nd Amendment you despise.

Originally posted by detachedindividual]
You're really not making much sense here, almost contradicting yourself in your scramble to defend the Second amendment.

How do? By stating it matters what other counties do, and then stating it doesn't matter. Or things of that nature??

Originally posted by detachedindividual]
America is not Africa, and it's not a war zone.

That is a great analysis.

Will you stop retrospectively rewriting what I'm saying to suit your argument please?

I have not said that other nations do not have gun ownership. I said other nations do not have gun ownership LIKE THE USA.

You brought up African nations and the ME, but they still don't come close because of the nature of those countries! They are WAR ZONES.

It's clear that no number of dead babies is going to convince you that the mental right wing crazies should give up their assault weapons. So debating this with you is pointless.

You're going around in circles, one moment saying you need those guns to fight back against tanks and fighter jets (laughable) and then using examples of nations that have done it, and are doing it, without mass gun ownership.

You and I both know that they've done it through defection of their military. You would fall flat on your butt with your poxy little guns against the US military.

1. You will never overthrow your government with guns.
2. Africa is crisis and unstable because of guerilla warfare through ILLEGAL trafficking of guns.
3. The Middle East is a war zone in places, and you claim that this is equal to "gun ownership"
4. Those who wrote the 2nd Amendment would vomit if they saw what their amendment now allows.
5. Americans hold up the constitution and wave it around without actually using their brains.

Originally posted by IkNOwSTuff


Point being is that amongst the international community there is the perception of gun toting, gun loving morons who never see the world and think gun ownership is necessary for safety.

I meet quite a few Americans out here and I always bring up guns, the only one Ive met who thinks owning a gun is the way forward worked for Haliburton.

An opinion on this subject doesnt gain any validity by having been to or residing in the US.

So, your limited interaction of Americans has created a false idea of what most are or think.
A representative of Haliburton does not necessarily reflect American Values.
Nor does any of the shootings you see on TV.

Originally posted by IkNOwSTuff
Out of curiousity where have you been?

A bunch of places.
ME, Canada, Mexico, Ocean Islands.

Originally posted by ripcontrol
reply to post by detachedindividual

 

May I assume your are pagan... because I am disappointed in your view if you are..

Mother Maiden Crone

Father Warrior Sage


It is the warrior part I will allude to...

The duty of a guardian to protect is sacred doubly to Pagans... If the Guardians of these children had been armed.. the children might have been alive.. we will never know...


to know, to will, to dare, to keep silent


Pagans believe everything is interconnected.. this includes actions and speech.. The actions of those who disarmed those guardians are just as guilty as the shooter..

That's disgusting.

Yes, I am Pagan, and proud.

Alluding to ancient beliefs in defence of this is as stupid as claiming the 2nd amendment excuses the ownership of assault weapons.

Originally posted by Grimpachi
This is a mental health problem not a gun problem.

The US is horrible as far as the mental health system goes and these acts of violence are the result.

Amen brother! This 100% all the way! We need better mental health options, and treatment.

Originally posted by Shark_Feeder
reply to post by detachedindividual

 

So are you beginning the campaign to dismantle you own nations military? That right there is step #1....anything else is posturing, and frankly ridiculous. No weapons are needed for defence right?

Defence of a nation is not the same as defence of the individual, and to try to pretend that it is makes you irrelevant to this discussion.

I don't know why I bothered to respond.

Originally posted by Shark_Feeder

Originally posted by IkNOwSTuff

An opinion on this subject doesnt gain any validity by having been to or residing in the US.

Out of curiousity where have you been?

Also, your opinions on personal sovereignty gain no validity residing outside the US.

Out of curiosity where are you from?

I think I must be making some sort sense....No one seems to respond.

edit on 14-12-2012 by Shark_Feeder because: (no reason given)

Im an Aussie but currently live in Malaysia.

I expect a star for responding

reply to post by detachedindividual

Those who wrote the 2nd Amendment would vomit if they saw what their amendment now allows.

Yeah they would considering the intention of the 2nd was to have the people, and it's government on equal footing.


The second was not about what a gun looks like,how many rounds it can hold, how many rounds it can fire at the pull of the trigger. etc.

But then again the reason the founders put in the second because the only way to enforce the constitution was the gun.

If some people have problems with Americans owning guns, who cares it is a specific right that shall not be taken.

It's clear that no number of dead babies is going to convince you that the mental right wing crazies should give up their assault weapons. So debating this with you is pointless.

We all know who has the most "dead babies" on their hands with their support of abortion.

Originally posted by detachedindividual

Originally posted by Shark_Feeder
reply to post by detachedindividual

 

So are you beginning the campaign to dismantle you own nations military? That right there is step #1....anything else is posturing, and frankly ridiculous. No weapons are needed for defence right?

Defence of a nation is not the same as defence of the individual, and to try to pretend that it is makes you irrelevant to this discussion.

I don't know why I bothered to respond.

I will have to agree an stop responding to this as well... however just one more time for clarity.

In the US the individual is seen as the equal, in fact in most cases above the state. Why do you think individuals have less right to protect themselves than a nation?

Originally posted by ZiggyMojo

Originally posted by AwakeinNM

Originally posted by ZiggyMojo

Originally posted by AwakeinNM

Originally posted by DAZ21

Originally posted by AwakeinNM

Originally posted by DAZ21
reply to post by OtherSideOfTheCoin

 

I tried telling them the same thing and they won't listen, they believe that if they can own guns they will shoot the shooters, which blatantly hasn't happened over the recent shootings.

So get ready to face a whole bunch of cowboys.

edit on 14-12-2012 by DAZ21 because: (no reason given)

That's because schools are "gun free zones" moron. Gosh, that didn't deter the CRIMINAL, did it?

CRIMINALS don't care about LAWS. You and your bleeding heart idealism are not going to stop a criminal from committing a crime, and banning guns are not going to make guns magically disappear. Remember, alcohol was banned once, too. Remember how it "disappeared"?

edit on 14-12-2012 by AwakeinNM because: (no reason given)

Moron?

So how did the gunmen enter the school gun free zone? It's not a gun repellent, just because it's a gun free zone doesn't mean you can't walk in with a gun.

So I'm sure someone could have gone in and tried to be the hero, some of you think you are.

That's not the point though, maybe there wasn't anyone present with a gun to help.

The fact is though, this gun free zone wasn't very gun free was it?

You've just driven home my point. Kudos.

This just made my day and proved to me that some people have a total breakdown in logic. The LAW ABIDING citizens will ABIDE by the LAW of the signs posted. A criminal will not. Arm the criminal and leave the innocent as fish in a barrel.

Oh, I see. You are saying that because there are restrictive laws that prohibit guns on schools, that criminals will disregard those laws, that we must now ban all guns so that criminals won't have them to commit these kinds of crimes?

Okay.. breakdown in logic. GOTCHA.

I think we should ban alcohol again. Since YOU weren't in charge of it last time, I'm sure it would work much better this time if YOU run things.

Breakdown in logic indeed.

No I'm saying banning guns would do NOTHING to stop gun crimes.

I was agreeing with you. I was saying the other guy was being illogical by disregarding the fact that Criminals don't obey the law but the innocent do.

Well damn, dude. Something in your original response sounded like you were agreeing with the OP.

Originally posted by macman
reply to post by SaturnFX

 

The argument of going through a class is not valid, and here is why.

Unused skills expire and become stale.
It requires practice and constant practice for many situations to hit an object due to the flight or fight mechanism that kicks in.

I have been through hundreds of classes involving weapons and firearms. I also practice as well.

While there are money people that may not be able to hit what they are shooting at, if the time comes for a high stress incident, they are better off then the unarmed person.
The same goes for a person armed with a knife.
Most would consider themselves skilled with one, but unless they practice, it is unlikely.
Same goes for a baseball bat or anything else.

So, perhaps like a fishing license then..need to keep reapplying and testing year to year in order for you to validly use?

Just throwing some thoughts out here.

Originally posted by ZiggyMojo
Our callousness and desensitized minds perpetuate the reality that we are experience. The world is a mirror that reflects everything back that you project. When peace, love and tolerance are projected that is what will be reflected. It is unrealistic and it will probably never happen, but at least I am not living a lie. You and I are equally responsible for every murder that happens in this world. We are a part of the society that produced the murderer. We all feed the machine.

Very well said Ziggy. Perhaps when more of us actually start taking responsibility we will be the change we wish to see in the world. Threads like this are indicative of the underlying issue driving so many of these things. To see another encouraging others to empower themselves as individuals (rather than accept being a cog and blame the other cogs for not spinning like they do) bolsters my determination in the work I am doing. This division which results in this violence is something we are ALL responsible for. When people start getting off of their high moral horses and start introspectively and effectively approaching solutions, rather than being driven by the motor behind the cogs, is when we can start to move forward as a species. Until then, things like this will continue to happen and no legislation in the world will change that. WE are the problem, not the tools we use.

Thank you, and much respect.

i keep hearing we need our guns to protect us from the government.

news flash...your government has royally screwed you all for the past decade.....your guns didnt protect you.

ipso facto....that arguement is null and void.

IMHO, guns aren't the problem, but our culture of violence is. Look at sports, especially close-contact sports. People get beat up all the time. Look at the number of fights. Look at boxing, for example. Geez, the list is long! Look at TV and entertainment and video games. Violence and murder and mayhem fill the media we view and play. I think ramping up laws against violence in movies, tv, sports and video games would go a long ways to helping reduce violence overall in our society.

reply to post by blupblup

You have faulty logic son. Go back to school and learn critical thinking. The great majority, my guess is about 80% or more of the populace, are good people and would not go around shooting people. Arming THEM would mean that those who lose it mentally or otherwise would use a gun for evil things would rapidly end up on the endangered species list. Of course if YOU are one of those who would use a gun for evil purposes then your logic is right on.

reply to post by bellagirl


I agree this is one pro-gun argument I just don’t get I can understand why you might argue about personal defence but the idea of defending gun ownership to defend form government is just ridiculous.

Originally posted by OtherSideOfTheCoin
reply to post by ZiggyMojo

 

Well if you compare America to other states comparable states in terms of development its really quite high, its amongst the highest of the developed states.

I'm not really sure what you mean by terms of "development" but I can only assume you mean at a societal and technological level. If that's the case, we really are NOT the high at all. Russia is more than DOUBLE our intentional homicide rate. There are several other "western civilized" countries above us as well. I think you aren't recognizing how "developed" a lot of other countries are. They may not be to the standard of the US, UK, France, or Germany but rest assured many of those countries are developed. Even a place like Jamaica that is nearly at the top of the list. I was there this past summer and yes it's dirtier and seedier than the US and much poorer on average. It doesn't lack things like hotels, and office buildings, the internet, designer clothes or expensive cars. The disparity and national poverty levels are higher than that of the US and violent crimes can be directly correlated to poverty levels. The US has SERIOUS disparity and there is a larger poverty stricken population here than much of Western Europe.
Median Wealth of Countries


On a completely different note: I think it's funny that people accuse Americans of living under a rock, but many others have no clue what the US is really like. Yeah, we live well, but not as well as Western Europe. I've been all over the world and sure we have our ignorance and shortcomings, but so does everyone else.

Originally posted by bellagirl
i keep hearing we need our guns to protect us from the government.

news flash...your government has royally screwed you all for the past decade.....your guns didnt protect you.

ipso facto....that arguement is null and void.

If anything that is a testament to the American their first solution is not picking up a gun and go kill senselessly.

Originally posted by detachedindividual


Will you stop retrospectively rewriting what I'm saying to suit your argument please?

Something I have learned in life. When you hit a chord, you will hear the tune.
I guess you don't like that your words are being turned against you.

Originally posted by detachedindividual
I have not said that other nations do not have gun ownership. I said other nations do not have gun ownership LIKE THE USA.

And I stated "Really"?
They do. And you didn't like that statement.

Originally posted by detachedindividual
You brought up African nations and the ME, but they still don't come close because of the nature of those countries! They are WAR ZONES.

Oh, so because there are conflicts there, they can' t be counted.
I do love the game where you get to create the rules, and as we go you create more.

Originally posted by detachedindividual
It's clear that no number of dead babies is going to convince you that the mental right wing crazies should give up their assault weapons. So debating this with you is pointless.

Dean babies?? Are we talking about abortions now????
Oh, I forgot. You are of the Freedom of Choice crowd, and think that the right wing are the killers. Now that is funny.
Oh, please do tell me, what exactly is an assault weapon?? Can't all weapons assault??

Originally posted by detachedindividual
You're going around in circles, one moment saying you need those guns to fight back against tanks and fighter jets (laughable) and then using examples of nations that have done it, and are doing it, without mass gun ownership.

No, you stated that an armed populace could not go against a Govt.
I provided areas where they are, and you dismiss it because it doesn't fall within your rules of how things are played here.

Originally posted by detachedindividual
You and I both know that they've done it through defection of their military. You would fall flat on your butt with your poxy little guns against the US military.

Oh, so now you add another addition to the equation. I should have expected that, you know, changing the rules and all.

So, what does defectors have to do with stripping the 2nd Amendment?

Originally posted by detachedindividual
1. You will never overthrow your government with guns.

Oh geez, you are right.
I guess we will just need defectors to ultimately do that and an armed populace will have nothing to do with anything.
Sure sure.
It must be a gripping fear you have of an armed person. How do you even go outside without the thought that someone may just shoot you.

Originally posted by detachedindividual
2. Africa is crisis and unstable because of guerilla warfare through ILLEGAL trafficking of guns.

Oh, so they must get guns illegally to defend themselves. Seems that they should have the ability to get them legally, maybe then they could defend themselves more adequately.

Originally posted by detachedindividual
3. The Middle East is a war zone in places, and you claim that this is equal to "gun ownership"

And how long has the ME been at war with each other?? 100's if not 1000's of years. It seems that they have fostered their society and civilization around war. It is their normal.
So, with that established, I guess that guns are a norm as well.

Originally posted by detachedindividual
4. Those who wrote the 2nd Amendment would vomit if they saw what their amendment now allows.

Your ATS name truly speaks to your assessment of that.

Originally posted by detachedindividual
5. Americans hold up the constitution and wave it around without actually using their brains.

Yep, me too dumb to know it.
You must tell me, as you only person that can understand.

Derpa derpa.

Originally posted by OtherSideOfTheCoin
reply to post by bellagirl

 

I agree this is one pro-gun argument I just don’t get I can understand why you might argue about personal defence but the idea of defending gun ownership to defend form government is just ridiculous.

and dont forget the zombies..and every other b/s excuse.