Are all Christians blindly hypocritical?

reply to post by adjensen


lol ok I totally didn't get it until you made the reference. Its been a while since I've read it (or seen the movie).

reply to post by Dynamike


First of all that was not more dead. I doubt there were 170 million in the entire world at that time. Second everyone in Egypt had the opportunity to save their child if they but acted to do so. They had 10 chances to stop the plagues, but Pharaoh would have none of it despite the evidence he was up against the creator. Also anyone who put the blood on the mantel would have had their children spared. They were too prideful however.

In the same way anyone can freely avail themselves of the free gift of salvation through Jesus Christ and thus avoid the coming judgment of the whole world. But most will reject that as well.

Originally posted by SevenThunders
reply to post by Dynamike

 

First of all that was not more dead. I doubt there were 170 million in the entire world at that time. Second everyone in Egypt had the opportunity to save their child if they but acted to do so. They had 10 chances to stop the plagues, but Pharaoh would have none of it despite the evidence he was up against the creator. Also anyone who put the blood on the mantel would have had their children spared. They were too prideful however.

In the same way anyone can freely avail themselves of the free gift of salvation through Jesus Christ and thus avoid the coming judgment of the whole world. But most will reject that as well.

really – the bible actually says

Exodus 9:12
And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses.

Doesn’t this mean that bible god took away Pharaoh’s free will and made it so that Pharaoh ignored Moses?

reply to post by racasan


I have posted this numerous times, and not a single person has been able to refute it.

In matters of omniscience and omnipotence, there are only two choices:

1. There is an opportunity at some point along a particular timeline. "God" prevents it.

2. There is an opportunity at some point along a particular timeline. "God" allows it.

At any given moment in any given timeline in any given place, both choices belong to "God" and "God" alone. Any illusion of choice in our lives results from his having made one of the two choices above. Nothing can happen unless one of those two choices is made.

In this sense, free will is an illusion for every single creature and object that isn't "God". All choices pass through his screening process before we are ever aware of the opportunity to make those choices, but we think we have free will because we can't miss a choice we never had. And "God", knowing this, is laughing all the while.

I look at it like a circle of dots. If you see the whole circle, you can choose one at random and count all the way around until you reach it again. But if you only see a small portion of it at a time, twenty dots become an infinite number because your perception leads you to believe that there is still more dots to be followed. Because of your limited perception, you remain ignorant of the reality of the circle, and you chase yourself in circles for your entire existence, because you never realize you're tracing the same path. Now say a loop extends from that circle, leading back around to it. You follow that loop and you believe you've found an entirely new circle. Sometimes, it changes color just to sustain that illusion. But it's still the same circle.

That's called the illusion of free will. You see it everywhere, if only you can peek outside the little box of your limited perception. It's possible, but you have to be willing to accept what you find. If you don't want answers, don't ask questions.

And most people don't want answers anymore. They just want reassurance because they've lost faith in the answers. They want a pillow to cry on and a song to help them sleep. That's all.

If "God" exists as described in the Bible, free will is a myth. So either we are all puppets, or the fundies are all fools. It's okay to be a fool, my friends...just because you may be a fool, does not mean you will be a fool forever. Stop talking and LISTEN.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


Your argument looks sound

I would look at it this way
If god is all knowing and all powerful then he should know how and have the means to avert anybody going to the hell >he< made - I honestly don't know how anybody can take the bible seriously, I sometimes wonder if Christians were the last in the que when they were handing out religions

The only thing I can add is that whole bible god sends plagues and after each plague hardens Pharaoh hart thing is an early example of a bully doing the stop hitting yourself gag

reply to post by racasan


Personally, I think it makes a much easier, much more efficient method to actually rule from within than rule from without. Ruling a world from outside of it creates a gulf between you and your subjects, making it harder and harder to care...especially during those times when you are tempted to say, "Screw it, I'm going home. They can take care of themselves, I wash my hands of this madness." Or maybe, in an effort to lighten the load of such a responsibility, you imagine it to be a television show or a game and say, "Did I do that? What was I drinking? Must have been asleep..."

See, I have no problem whatsoever with a god that behaves as a parent. That includes tough love, daddy knows best, my way or the highway, all that good stuff. However, I have never met a single parent who determined every last detail of their child's design, and could foresee the lifelong consequences of every potential choice that child would be faced with, from birth until death. And that is what separates this "God" from the traditional parent we are used to dealing with.

As such, I refuse to believe that a creator who is all-powerful and benevolent would consider, even for a moment, giving up on any of its creations. And hell represents exactly that: disownment, rejection, ignorance. An all-powerful benevolent being would have both the understanding and the affection to ignore the possibility of exile or judgment until absolutely every last option of salvation has been exhausted. In fact, the Christian god makes it clear that only one perspective is tolerable - either you adore him and desire to serve him forever and always, or you are not worth sparing.

That, in itself, is evil. Undeniably self-serving at the expense of all others. Am I to respect that? No. I am told that I just don't understand. Oh, yes, I do understand. Every Christian redefines the Bible. If reading it literally does not match what they are told, they read it metaphorically. If reading it metaphorically does not fall in line, they read it literally. Christians are some of the most logically flexible people on this planet.

Unfortunately, the more flexible logic is, the more meaningless it is. An oar made of jello does very little good. And they don't understand that, because the words of Jesus as represented by various power figures throughout history determine the function of each and every phrase and word, thereby affecting its translation in the minds of the people.

I have numerous examples of how the Bible and its assertions regarding Jesus and "God" are philosophically and logically flawed. But no one listens to logic. Not anymore. In a world built of lies, all that matters is a convenient lie, because it's eaiser than ever to prove the truth is possible a lie. And at that point, everything is a lie.

Yes, even the cake. Especially the cake.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

In fact, the Christian god makes it clear that only one perspective is tolerable - either you adore him and desire to serve him forever and always, or you are not worth sparing. That, in itself, is evil.

This is one of your greatest mechanisms for inaccuracy. Where you fail to understand something you immediately judge God. Sure you're a smart guy AI, big deal, their a dime a dozen so get over yourself. Your knowledge compared to Gods intellect is the difference between a snuffed out candle and a forest fire. I suggest you keep that clearly in mind. Before you judge God as evil because you think in human terms about what he requires of us.
Especially when it's something a really smart person would do automatically in the first place. I assume you loved your Mother and Father right ? He makes it a clear cut requirement because that's the only part of us he wants around after this mess we've ensued for a world is finally put to rest. It isn't evil ! It's perfectly just and righteous.

See AI that's an adult giving something that is not understood some time and thought and prayer. Which also works to bring us closer. Instead of an illogical judgement that goes completely against any description of the subject.

So just because you don't understand something, doesn't mean it can't be understood.

( But this is how I would.......I think it makes better sense like this............That is just evil ? )

Do you read any of the stuff you write ?

reply to post by ChesterJohn


You offered a lengthy response and you seam like an intelligent person so I would like to offer a rebuttal as well as an apology. The context and title was created by first with the substance of controversy. If I were merely to make the statement I wanted to it would have fallen on deaf ears. I am also open minded and like to hear from sensible, people who disagree.

I should apologize if I insulted your intelligence. As stated previously it was a ploy to lure my target audience. To answer my question correctly, we as humans are all hypocrites.

That being said, in response to your request for links I'm afraid that I can either not or do not wish to take the time to find them. Most of what I said were things that can mostly not be quantifiable or if so the subject matter would be controversial.

So I will give you a generalized version of what my real issue is.

1) In my experience it is my opinion that the culture and political history in America is highly influenced by Christian beliefs. If you you disagree that's fine but I find it hard to say that more likely than not I am wrong.

2) In my experience it is my opinion that the number of people who are atheist dwarf in comparison to the number of people who are Christian. One poll years ago stated that 94% of Americans claimed to believe in God. Maybe it is wrong but I'm leaning on my experience anyways so it doesn't matter.

3) In my experience I have found the constant battering of personal belief in God to be overwhelming. I hear it from friends and family in conversation or posts on Facebook proclaiming their love for God.

4) In my opinion when you take into consideration the number of people who believe in God there seems to be a general sense that it is common and acceptable to consistently bring up God in day to day interactions with others.

5) In my opinion when this occurs they fail to take into consideration the thoughts and ideals of those who do not share the same beliefs leaving those like myself to just have to deal with it.

6) In my experience when one such as myself attempts to speak of my belief of no God as factual as those who speak of their belief of God as factual I am met with severe opposition and ridicule by those claiming to believe in God. This also occurs when I attempt to proclaim my ideas on Facebook.

7) In my opinion I believe that if I were to speak out at public political events when someone invokes prayer I would be met with great opposition. And conversely if I were to invoke a two minute speech about my thanks for Darwin I would be met with the same opposition.

In closing I wish I lived in a time when this were not reality. Because I feel like we are still living in the stone age and I am a man who looks to the stars. One day though I predict we will all lose the sense of knowing who our creator is and begin our search for the real reason why we exist and attempt to comprehend it. And I say that we will attempt to comprehend it because we are infants in the realm of understanding our true reality and existence.

reply to post by Dynamike

very easy to stereotype aint it OP?

The answer is "No" not all are blindly hypocritical. Some of us Christians are ex-Atheists ourselves and understand the mind set and intellectual programming from which you operate, and we Love you regardless.


Some also also choose to rest in experiencing God and find in no longer necessary to take part in egotistical debates.

take care! catch you on the other side

reply to post by randyvs


To be honest I think you're both wrong. I don't think anyone can use good or bad, righteous or evil, right or wrong in any argument because it is all just a matter of perspective.

Most guidelines we have are man made. For instance is it wrong to kill? If you say yes then I ask is it wrong to kill one to save two? How about save a hundred? A Thousand? A billion? The answer changes or becomes easier with each number. That is illogical but human.

Is it wrong to kill for no reason? If the person were going to die then what does it matter anyways? When a person dies they return to the basic matter they were made of so there is no difference in the world of particles.

What if you smashed those particles into energy? Energy is still an equal exchange for matter so there is still no difference.

What if you took particles and changed their make up into particles that make a person. Then from those particles you made a person? Well you just disturbed those particles and made them into something they weren't before. Is it wrong to destroy those particles by making that person? Well that is a matter of perspective. Because in reality my body, more precisely my brain, is just a vessel that gives the atoms in it a fluid wave of the consciousness ; an act which can be accomplished by those that come after I am dead.

So in reality our good and evil rules are just treaties between us humans that simply states "don't bother me and I won't bother you."

reply to post by Badgered1


I'm not threatening you. You can do whatever you want. Oh, and you wouldn't do anything even if that was a threat of eternal damnation.

So, please, do not threaten me by challenging me with that worthless question.

reply to post by Dynamike

In closing I wish I lived in a time when this were not reality. Because I feel like we are still living in the stone age and I am a man who looks to the stars. One day though I predict we will all lose the sense of knowing who our creator is and begin our search for the real reason why we exist and attempt to comprehend it. And I say that we will attempt to comprehend it because we are infants in the realm of understanding our true reality and existence.

As a Christian Mystic, something I've noticed is the increase in militant atheism, in atheist billboards, political moves to get rid of Christmas tree's or Nativity scenes, and in general Atheism becoming a Popular View.

The Bible itself predicts that Christians eventually become a minority and ridiculed and killed for their beliefs. So in that regards, the future is looking bright for your Atheistic stance.

You should learn how to have thick skin and toughen up a bit, in regards to being attacked, mocked, laughed at for being an Atheist. Your a minority and belief in God is the popular choice.

I personally predict the Belief in God will never go away as it is inherently built in to the Psyche of most individuals and that the majority of Atheists are predominantly Left Brain based. Also I predict science will eventually Quantify Spirit and the Spiritual realms an additional dimension superimposed over our 3d dimension and then there will be no choice but to acknowledge Spirit, though ATheists will end up calling it something like the Great ALl, or Existence itself, or something to that extent.

Anyway ...toughen up a bit. Being an Atheist includes alot of baggage and discrimination. Best bet is to get used to it and stop complaining/crying about it cause that won't solve anything.

reply to post by dominicus


The resounding constant in life is that the simplest and most direct answer,route ,explanation is always the most sound. Your prediction is probably the most complicated , least likely to occur. Did you make that up based on the fundamental physical laws or a story book?

Another example of my complaint is the consistent amount of people who are telling others to pray for the families who were victims of the Connecticut school shooting. For what?! So we all expect God to help ease the mental pain of the victims and yet it would be too much to ask for God to have helped fix whatever was going wrong in the suspects brain earlier? How about a quick bus accident that squashed the psycho and laid his brains out on the road.

Thoughts and prayers won't do Jack squat for them. Send them donations people. How about the government stop foreign aid and give the money to these families. I swear if people spent as much time actually helping others rather than going to Bible studies and sermons and praying...

reply to post by Dynamike

The resounding constant in life is that the simplest and most direct answer,route ,explanation is always the most sound.

1.) please do point the way or provide a link, or book, or name or anything which says this is the end all be all golden rule for existence, instead of merely a subjective opinion. I'm all ears on that One.

Your prediction is probably the most complicated , least likely to occur.

Yea, just like the first guy to predict quantum physics as a branch of science right? I'm sure when he first postulated quantum physics, it was seen as simple and most likely to occur.

Did you make that up based on the fundamental physical laws or a story book?

I used a combo of things. Logic, reason, history, current data around the world, my own observations in a big city in the U.S., observations based on my trips to various countries in Europe, kept in mind the speculations of Nostradamus, Edgar Cayce, various remote viewers who were under various multi-million dollar programs such as Ingo Swan and McMoneagle, and the various spiritual texts the world over.

having fun with your assumptions yet?

Originally posted by racasan

really – the bible actually says

Exodus 9:12
And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses.

Doesn’t this mean that bible god took away Pharaoh’s free will and made it so that Pharaoh ignored Moses?

Thats an idiomatic expression in Hebrew that probably should be translated, 'God allowed Pharaoh's heart to be hardened'. We see the truth of this in Exodus 8:

12 Then Moses and Aaron went out from Pharaoh. And Moses cried out to the Lord concerning the frogs which He had brought against Pharaoh. 13 So the Lord did according to the word of Moses. And the frogs died out of the houses, out of the courtyards, and out of the fields. 14 They gathered them together in heaps, and the land stank. 15 But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and did not heed them, as the Lord had said.

Pharaoh hardened his own heart and God allowed it.

reply to post by dominicus


I'm sorry but if you don't believe that more likely than not the simplest answer is the most sound then you do not understand logic and reasoning.

To put credence into other human beings that claim to be able to remotely view or have telekinesis or predict the future is not wise. Knowledge is the only power that will help any man accomplish something like this and to be able to achieve such great knowledge is the most difficult thing in the universe.

We humans are susceptible to illusions and trickery, especially those who are weak minded.

I will attempt to answer this without offending anyone. The best way to approach a subject like this, I have learnt even more recently is with love and respect rather than anger and bigotry.

I will not call my self an Orthodox Christian at this point in life. I believe in Yeshua/Jesus for salvation because I believe that there is evil and suffering in this world and I believe that mankind's heart is evil. I therefore believe in a need for salvation from a power which is higher than myself. If I said I could save myself, I would be humanist, and I would feel that I would be taking the stance that I could overcome evil and suffering on my own. I feel that I cannot overcome all evil and suffering on my own and therefor am in need of salvation from a source which is higher than myself.

That being said, I do believe the church is highly hypocritical. Here is where I will emphasize I am trying not to offend anyone. I am a vegan. I do not do it for health reasons, but because I do not believe in harming any living being. The church scoff's at vegans and says animals are for us to eat and make clothes out of etc. I do not believe this way. I can give perfect evidence to the rational mind that Jesus did not eat fish, he did not eat lamb at passover, the old testament sacrifices were not literal but symbolic, and many other things. To me the ultimate form of hypocrisy is to call oneself a being of love, and either slaughter or support the slaughter of the innocents. This to me is gross indecency.

I was recently in a dispute with a young man that atheism was a faith, just like Christianity. It was a dispute over a simple play of words. Faith is actually defined in many ways not limited to religion, one is as follows: Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing. With this definition, atheism definitely constitutes as a faith. Either way one may view this, Christianity and Atheism are both systems of belief with sets of core values, ideas, evidences, and other things. I will say that I believe that belief bashing is on both sides of the fence, from Christians and Atheists. Regardless of ones beliefs, no one should try to force one upon the other, but all should have the right of expression.

As I had stated, I do believe in a higher power, and I believe it is the job of that higher power to bring about change in this world at the proper time. I do not feel, however that this is an excuse for us to sit back and not strive to make the world a better place. Anger and fighting is not the answer from either side of the fence. If the atheist is as intellectual as he thinks he is, then he should realize fighting is not the answer to problems, but rather only causes more. If the Christian is as spiritual as he thinks he is, then he should realize that Jesus told them to turn the other cheek in conflict. Fighting will get us nowhere, and until we realize that conflict over any subject will get us nowhere, and until we start respecting all life and all creation, we will never ourselves have peace. This is my belief on this topic.

reply to post by SevenThunders


I see so the bible is the inspired word of god and all of it is true until its not and then it’s a poor translation or something - noted

But anyway if bible god is all knowing and all powerful couldn’t he have sent Moses to Pharaoh with sufficiently convincing evidence to make sure Pharaoh released the Jews? - otherwise given bible gods advantage of over Pharaoh the he might as well have hardened Pharaoh hart

And what does Pharaohs hard hart have to do with the rest of the Egyptians anyway?
Why should they be made to surfer for Pharaohs hard hart?

And if you where clinging to the side of a cliff about to fall and I came along and saw your situation and did nothing when I could save you but instead I allow you to fall, then in your opinion would I be guilty of anything?

reply to post by racasan


That's very true. And how exactly were the families to know to put blood over their doors? Did they all have Twitter? What if someone put blood up and another person wiped it off after the family went to bed? Would the firstborn still die?

What if it was a house with a single mother who was really sick or disabled or could not afford or find blood to put on their door? Did God punish them for her being disabled or really sick?

What if they didn't have a door? What if they were in a tent on a family camping trip? Did they wake up to find their children dead?

Why did all of this need to be done? Couldn't God have done a minor miracle to pursued the Pharaoh?

What if God told me to tell everyone to kill an innocent lamb tonight and put its blood on their doors? Do you think anyone would do it?