Vitamin C and Heart Disease Prevention: Another Conspiracy of Silence?

Originally posted by AuranVector

Originally posted by Pardon?

Having been involved in cardio-vascular medicine for over a quarter of a century (I'm a cardiac physiologist, so no 'big pharma' ties)....

...Having flicked through the book you linked I see an alarming amount of testimonials....

Don't you find it strange that Pauling's "research" with vit C has never been able to be reproduced?

As a cardiac physiologist, you are a member of the Medical Establishment --- which most definitely has ties to Big Pharma -- they probably funded the research you do or did.

So you discount testimonials -- that doesn't surprise me. The first hand experiences of people who have tried alternative methods do not interest you. But they do interest me and other people, because we have our own experiences.

Dr. Pauling's research most definitely has been reproduced by people trying his recommendations.

I have first hand experiences of the value of mega-doses of Vitamin C.

I've only ever done in-house research without funding from external sources.
And if you knew what a physiologist does you would understand that even if we did have external funding it wouldn't be from pharma.

I always discount testimonials. They're not worth a thing. Anyone can write or say anything. There's never any data to back-up what that particular "person" has stated.

I notice you're still slating big pharma but have conveniently ignored the fact that Pauling's fudged his results as a direct result of a tie-in with big pharma ($$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$).

I'm talking about Pauling's "clinical study" results. You know, the one he fudged the results of.
So no, no-one's been able to replicate the results simply because they were faked.
Bur people like you ignore this and carry on regardless and even state these benefits based upon a fake study! Amazing!

I base what I think of "breakthroughs" like Rath's and also my belief what Rath is on my biochemical and physiological knowledge of the human body, not on what I read on websites.
Based upon what I know, Rath's a quack.


Keep your head firmly buried in the sand, you no doubt feel safe there.

Oh, feel free to label me however you wish to.
The bottom line is that I abhor quack medicine and it's purveyors.
With a passion.

reply to post by halfoldman


There are fat soluble (spelling? that doesn't look right) vitamins and water soluble vitamins.

That's why if your toddler ate a bottle of "Flintstone's multiple vitamins" they could get poisoned.

Vit C is water soluble, Vit A is fat soluble.

You have to do some of your own research. Also, the manner in which other "anti-oxidants" are manufactured leaves a lot of questions.

Vitamin E used to be "the supplement" to take, not anymore.

Look at some of the research - not by big pharma - they will always steer you wrong.

Originally posted by AuranVector
I am convinced that Big Pharma is debilitating us with their drugs and it’s intentional.

Well, it's logical really.

They have no power over and cannot profit from a healthy population.

They are big business. The idea that they somehow care for us is a myth.

Originally posted by AuranVector

Originally posted by halfoldman

... don't see Rath excluded from the global banking systems, and his material and products are available online to anyone who wants them.

Both Rath and big pharma sell vitamins, minerals and amino acids....

Where do you buy Dr. Rath's supplements? I have never even seen an ad for them anywhere.

The topic of this thread must have really hit a nerve for it to prompt two Establishment shills to post ten (10) detailed, long-winded posts railing against Dr. Rath.

I would never have predicted it. One never knows. Good for Dr. Matthias Rath.

edit on 7-12-2012 by AuranVector because: (no reason given)

If you haven't seen Dr. Rath's advertising in some form then it's probably because he hasn't targeted the US lately ( I think since 2002, but I'm not sure).
These articles have been around for quite a while, although our experience in SA has been much more recent, and he was already a controversial figure when he arrived here.

His products however are easily available to anyone who wants them, and does a quick keyword search, for example: www.drrathvitamins.com... or www.betterlife.com...


The label of "shill" could point right back.

Exactly which vitamins are made by big pharma and their subsidiaries and which are not?
Until that's clarified you could be just as much of a shill for big pharma as the people you label and dismiss.
For all I know Rath could be your uncle or whatnot.
So these labels are really not arguments.

Apologies for my long-winded posts, but these are often made accusations against TAC and Zackie Achmat by people who know nothing about our history, and yes, I did put effort and research into it, even if you don't agree with my view.
For myself that meant more than sloganeering and labeling people who disagree.

reply to post by Happy1

Thanks for the information.

It's much appreciated.

It is a bit vague and does beg the question and issue somewhat of what is big pharma and what is not big pharma when it comes to manufactured vitamins?

Research is great, but there is a lot of conflicting information on vitamins and supplements.

There's no guarantee that one person's research on the topic will coincide with that of another person.

People also come from different backgrounds and ailments, and I would not discount personal testimony at all.

Then, the media is always blowing in one direction or another.

One month you'll read in your favorite magazine that anti-oxidants increased risks of cancer, and the next month you'll read the opposite.

Just today I read in the Afrikaans magazine Huisgenoot (13 December 2012, p. 52) that a study published in the American Medical Association found that cancer was reduced by 8 percent amongst male American doctors older than 50 who used multivitamins.
The study focused on 14, 641 male doctors older than 50 over a 10 year period.

Originally posted by halfoldman

His products however are easily available to anyone who wants them, and does a quick keyword search, for example: www.drrathvitamins.com... or www.betterlife.com...

Thanks for finding these sites for me. They did not come up for me when I googled info on Dr. Rath.

The prices do not seem unreasonable -- pretty much standard prices for proprietary blends. I did not see Vitacell.

I have NO connection to Dr. Rath. I'm not a professional healer, I'm not in the wholistic healing industry.
I'm NOT selling anything.

I have a deep distrust of Big Pharma & the Medical Establishment.

I think the fatal mistake that Dr. Rath made is that he naively attacked Big Pharma publicly. That's pretty much like taking a bat and hitting a hornets nest with it. Now they will do their best to "sting" him to death with calumny.

Originally posted by halfoldman

...Just today I read in the Afrikaans magazine Huisgenoot (13 December 2012, p. 52) that a study published in the American Medical Association found that cancer was reduced by 8 percent amongst male American doctors older than 50 who used multivitamins.
The study focused on 14, 641 male doctors older than 50 over a 10 year period.

Now that is interesting.

Did the study keep track of which brands of multivitamins were being used by the test subjects?

Or was it one standardized multivitamin made just for the study?

Originally posted by NuclearPaul

Originally posted by AuranVector
I am convinced that Big Pharma is debilitating us with their drugs and it’s intentional.

Well, it's logical really.

They have no power over and cannot profit from a healthy population.

They are big business. The idea that they somehow care for us is a myth.

Excellent cartoon. I agree completely. As far as TPTB are concerned we are cannon fodder & slave labor.

And to add insult to injury, we are allowed the privilege of paying them to poison us.

Well this one is worth a bump or ten. Excellent data, well written OP, and a very important subject. Again, if people don't know, humans and the other primates are just about the only animals alive who can't make ascorbic acid ("Vitamin C") in their bodies. The genetic ability broke in primates (and us) long long ago. Everyone else makes it: insects, plants, sea creatures, birds, all other mammals, etc. etc. So, bottom line, we have a very very serious but very very curable major genetic disease.

Yes, as the OP says, this should be shouted from the rooftops.

It's not Vitamin C that's the cure - all. It's Vitamin B.

Pharmaceutical companies know that if you take enough Vitamin B, you'll never, ever get sick.

Of course, you can't get vitamin B pills in large enough doses to make a difference to your health. In the 1930's, big pharma realized that Vitamin B would put them out of business, and had any quantities that will be large enough to make a difference declared toxic.

The Vitamin B that you get now is such a small dose pill that it has no bearing on the body at all.

a reply to: babybunnies

Show me where these ultra large vitamin b comes out of food sources. No, not processed foods. Natural foods.

I'd agree that b-vitamins do a lot of good, but don't think you need them to by very large doses. I take a natural sourced b-vitamin daily, but the dose is fairly small. A few times the rda seems to work well. You can get that from food if you eat raw. You don't need like a b-50 or b-100 if that's the kind of "large" you're referring to.

B-vitamins are known to be rather non-toxic, so I think you statement is provably false. There is no government which declares large doses of b-vitamins toxic. What is set is an RDA, a recommended daily allowance.

a reply to: AuranVector


Once again, a thread on ATS has saved my life. I was getting about zero vitamin C lately, and starting to notice heart problems. The biggest thing people should worry about is "diets" that restrict essential vitamins. One of these stupid diets was about to get me with a massive heart attack! Scary, because I'm not even 35 years old yet!

Vitamin C deficiency symptoms:

Link

As for the antioxidant property, vitamin C is not the most important, here is an incomplete list:

- C60, pretty much experimental but reputed as being the supreme mitochondrial antioxidant. Give impressive aerobic performance.

- Uric acid, the most important endogenous antioxidant. Can be supplemented using inosine. May cause gout. Very usefull for MS.

- Glutathione.

- Ketone bodies.

- Vitamin C.

- L-Carnosine.

- Melatonin.

- ...

a reply to: InFriNiTee

... and starting to notice heart problems.

Probably a mineral deficiency, like potassium. Lots of peoples start diet without proper supplementation and eventually endup more cripled than before...

a reply to: PeterMcFly

I take chelated forms of magnesium and potassium daily. I know I wasn't getting enough vitamin C. The dentists' assistant told me last week that my gums were "receding". All I know is I took some vitamin C today (the ester form) and I feel a lot better. I also added some CO-Q10 to that regimen. I have been having worsening angina pains over the last 2 weeks. They were progressively getting worse with more exercise. So bad that just walking a block outside would make me dizzy enough to have to sit down, with my heart area aching like I got a bullet in my chest. My blood pressure was also going high for the first time in my life (138/90).

A lot of people on here seem to think that Dr. Rath didn't know what he was talking about. A lot of other people would say that you shouldn't notice a difference in 12 hours, etc. I am here to say that I am going to continue taking everything I mentioned above here. If you feel better (when you're having problems) then it is helping. I will be careful NOT to take too much of anything, but be sure to take enough to prevent the negative symptoms I have been having lately.

a reply to: InFriNiTee

I have been having worsening angina pains over the last 2 weeks. They were progressively getting worse with more exercise. So bad that just walking a block outside would make me dizzy enough to have to sit down, with my heart area aching like I got a bullet in my chest.

Have you got an echocardiogram lately? If not it may be time to get one. I hope you are followed by a competent practitionner.

a reply to: InFriNiTee

If it turns out I saved your life by bumping this thread then I hope that you accomplish great things and do no harm from now on. And name your children after me, or at least three of them. And pizza, lots of vegan pizza. Seriously though, get an exam, and thousands of grams of Vitamin C daily of course. Being hydrated probably helps too.

Am interested in the data on Vitamin B, maybe advocates can start a new thread. I love brown rice, which has lots of B, and other B carrying foods. Does nutritional yeast have lots of B in it? Been using that as a seasoning on rice and other dishes for years, ever since I found out all the nature/hippies/healthyadvocates people use it.