Europe Will Cancel Weapon Ban on China Next Year

Very good link seekerof.

China is building its own stuff. It NEEDS to build its own stuff. In a huge conflict,Europe or the USA will stop trading weapons with China. About combat readiness,didn't you know the USA didn't participate in any major war since WWII? When they first came into the war the average farm boy was forced to carry a gun and shoot people, and thats also how they defeated Japan and Germany.

Sadly you guys don't realize that currently,the PLA standards are so that they can fight a war with modern standards,they are no longer the "people's war" army. They are using modern weapons,for example the Su-27 is regarded as many to be equal to the F-15,and even if we lost 2 times as many troops, we can afford to continue fighting while the other can not. I don't think 1 yankee infantry platoon can gun down 7 chinese infantry platoons like they did in the 50s' Korean war.

Originally posted by Broadsword20068
You people seem to forget this is the same country that drove over its own people with battle tanks. A country that lies to its people, and doesn't allow them true freedoms. If anything, the weapon ban should remain just that: a ban.

Yet we share technologies with a country that backed international terrorists and gave them training and help in their activities?
They dont lie to thier people they twist the truth, its the beaty of propganda , best and easiest weapon in a countries power.

Well it's only a matter of time before China turns capatalist. Once that happens it will be easier for them to negotiate treaties like this weapons ban. Whether or not the propaganda will continue I don't know. Either way China needs to start copying less designs and start designing there own stuff. China can produce weapons, they just seem to have a hard time designing their own stuff in recent years.

They already are developing their own stuff,just that they are currently focusing on their economy more. If they were developing missles instead of their economy then expect another cold war to begin.

Originally posted by Broadsword20068
You people seem to forget this is the same country that drove over its own people with battle tanks. A country that lies to its people, and doesn't allow them true freedoms. If anything, the weapon ban should remain just that: a ban.

"You may take out LIVES!... but you'll never take... our FREEEEDOOOM!!!"

I'm listening to a broken record, playing everything America's already heard for the past 50 years or more.

Can anyone define for me what "true freedoms" are exactly? What kind of gov't has TRUE freedom (with all of its perks and benefits)?

Before believing in every bit of media sensationalism that ever crosses your path, perhaps it might do good to think of a plan for China instead of criticizing the gov't? Mind you, I'm no fan of Tiananmen either, but since when was any other large country free of guilt?

I've already mentioned this numerous times. I'm curious to know how you would fix China. I'm think a lot of you would love to immediately impose a Democratic Republic rule over China, without thinking of any economic, social, or political consequences, but that's just me.

I think the average human is quite ignorant.
American sensationalist media is such a wonderful tool. If you can't serve your country with intellect and open-mindedness, serve it with your ignorance.

Originally posted by devilwasp

Originally posted by Broadsword20068
You people seem to forget this is the same country that drove over its own people with battle tanks. A country that lies to its people, and doesn't allow them true freedoms. If anything, the weapon ban should remain just that: a ban.

Yet we share technologies with a country that backed international terrorists and gave them training and help in their activities?
They dont lie to thier people they twist the truth, its the beaty of propganda , best and easiest weapon in a countries power.

Very true, but China is a nation that could become a potential threat in the future. The other countries could not become threats in the same manner. No gov't is without corruption. In the 60s or 70s, the United States gov't support Pol Pot, and that guy was likea miniature Stalin!! However, that was also partially to spite the communist countries of the time I think.

Anyhow, I don't cite the Tiananmen (I can't spell it right) Square reason in terms of just human rights as the the reason to impose the weapons ban on China. It is also because I would not want such a country becoming powerful enough to be a significant threat.

As for freedoms, I mean the freedom to protest without having a tank driven over you as one, and to go on and try to become what you want to become career-wise; also the freedom to question everything. The freedom to try and do what you want. In China, if you want to be a gymnast but aren't naturally agile, no way in hell will they let you try for that. In America, the gov't does do anything; you just work your butt off, and if you make it, you make it, if you aren't good enough, you aren't good enough. But you can still try.

Originally posted by W4rl0rD
Very good link seekerof.

China is building its own stuff. It NEEDS to build its own stuff. In a huge conflict,Europe or the USA will stop trading weapons with China. About combat readiness,didn't you know the USA didn't participate in any major war since WWII? When they first came into the war the average farm boy was forced to carry a gun and shoot people, and thats also how they defeated Japan and Germany.

Sadly you guys don't realize that currently,the PLA standards are so that they can fight a war with modern standards,they are no longer the "people's war" army. They are using modern weapons,for example the Su-27 is regarded as many to be equal to the F-15,and even if we lost 2 times as many troops, we can afford to continue fighting while the other can not. I don't think 1 yankee infantry platoon can gun down 7 chinese infantry platoons like they did in the 50s' Korean war.

W4rl0rD, the United States went into WWII after training those men. They didn't take ordinary boys, give them a rifle, and throw them into battle. They sent in trained men, fairly highly trained men at that. General Patton's men were some of the best-trained men in the world, and Germany feared him so much that they removed part of their army from certain sections that they needed it in, simply because Patton's army's presence in areas was a major threat to them.

As for aircraft, you forget that YOU MUST KNOW HOW TO FLY THE THING AND HAVE DECENT AVIONICS. The Su planes China has do not have avionics that match those of the aircraft of the United States. You also must be well-trained, as I just said, to fly the aircraft. If you go up against a professional racing car driver who is driving a Corvett, and you have a Ferrari (i.e. a faster, better-handling car most likely), likely the racing driver will still win. Skill is needed. In the Korean War, the United States F-86 Sabre pilots shot down far more Migs than the Migs shot down Sabres, yet the Mig was a superior aircraft. And the U.S. pilots are aware that the Su planes have superior maneuvering capabilities, so they train accordingly. They are aware of that.

What the PLA needs is a lot of decent training. Considering right now that they have an army twice the size of the United States, but with far less funding, it is impossible to reason that they are as skilled as the United States military at the moment.

Now in the future, that will probably change, but then again, that was why I say the ban should remain in place.

Well then perhaps it's just me.

I see that "freedom" and "equality" are relative terms that depend heavily on population.

I believe that in a few decades when the population of the world reaches 20 billion, countries of the world will have no choice BUT to restrict some freedoms.

Your rights and freedom should be inversely related to how much your actions restrict the rights and freedoms of other people. The more "other people" there are, the more your rights and freedoms will affect them.

I'm not saying China is a GREAT place to live for individuals. I'd rather be living in America. I'm just saying that perhaps their current situation can't be blamed 100% on China or the Chinese gov't. What other suggestions for a Chinese gov't have I heard besides the cliche Democratic Republic style? None.

Sure the gov't is corrupt (what realistic gov't of any large country isn't corrupt?), but not everything can be blamed on them. It's just bad fortune they have
1. Large population (only India can compare... and India's criticized a lot too)
2. Decades of weak economy
(- Nevermind the fact that millions of people were forced to run from the Japanese in fear, abandonning their personal belongings.
- Nevermind the disease that was spread across China, most of which just gets blamed on the new CCP.
- Nevermind that the Chinese were horribly ill-equiped to deal with this crap anyway, so starvation and poverty should have been expected...)
3. Positioned beside some of the most powerful countries in the world (India, Russia, Japan, North Korea etc... Who do we, as Americans have for neighbors? Canada and Mexico Yeah... sure we can criticize them for being so aggressive and strict on their civilian population when protests could possibly trigger enormous chain reactions undermining the commonwealth of China in a critical situation. We've never had to worry about this crap. During times of internal strife, what could happen? Canadian invasion? HaHAha, give me a break.)

[edit on 19-12-2004 by Nox]

Broadsword:

The americans went into the war with average farmboys with little or no training at all. However,they learnt very quickly and became better after a few months on the battlefield. Training is one thing,actual combat is another thing,with the US currently doing so much "hunting down of terriorists" recently you can expect them to be highly trained with the british too, unlike any other country,say India and China or Russia.

China is buying russian tech. and makes further developement of it. for instance a submarinebased nuclear weapon program:

www.globalsecurity.org...

Each of the Type 094 SSBNs will mount 16 JL-2 ballistic missiles (DF-31s) with a range of 8000 kms. When deployed, this missile will allow Chinese SSBNs to target portions of the United States for the first time from operating areas located near the Chinese coast. Equipped with the JL-2 missiles, the Type 094 SSBNs would only have to patrol just to the northeast of the Kuril Islands to hold about three-fourths of the United States at risk.

On 02 December 2004 Bill Gertz reported that the new 094-class submarine had been launched in late July 2004. The new Type 094 was spotted by US intelligence at the Huludao shipyard, on the coast of Bohai Bay, some 250 miles northwest of Beijing. The submarine was in the early stages of being outfitted and was not yet equipped with new JL-2 submarine-launched nuclear missiles. The Pentagon report on Chinese military power released in May 2004 stated that the new Chinese missile submarine would not be operational until around 2010.

Originally posted by W4rl0rD
Broadsword:

The americans went into the war with average farmboys with little or no training at all. However,they learnt very quickly and became better after a few months on the battlefield. Training is one thing,actual combat is another thing,with the US currently doing so much "hunting down of terriorists" recently you can expect them to be highly trained with the british too, unlike any other country,say India and China or Russia.

No they did not, where are you getting this from?? Where do you think the Marine Corps term "devil dog" comes from? From World War ONE, when the Marines fought the German army (I forget what battle it was), they fought them so ferociously, that the Germans had high respect for them and gave them the title, "devil dog." When America went into WWII, its tank platoons weren't organized nearly as well as the German ones (at first), but then they learned, and then there was Patton, who revolutionized tank use during WWII for the United States.

But infantry-wise, the U.S. sent in highly trained troops. Yes, combat and training are different, but trained infantry soldiers still do things automatically that untrained troops don't. The U.S. didn't provide a challenge to the Axis powers because there were so many of them, they provided a challenge because they too were trained soldiers.

Reg. farmboys get slaughtered. Remember, the United States had had a military for a while before WWI, let alone WWII. It just wasn't modernized at first. But after WWI, they modernized it a good degree. But the troops themselves were always trained one way or another, whether it was with muskets or rifles.

Originally posted by Broadsword20068
You people seem to forget this is the same country that drove over its own people with battle tanks. A country that lies to its people, and doesn't allow them true freedoms. If anything, the weapon ban should remain just that: a ban.

Ooohhhhhh your speaking of China Since you mentioned lieing to the people [Reasons for the Iraq war] and not allowing true freedoms [Patriot act], I thought you were refering to the USA

Whats that line 'you are going to find that the truths we hold to, depend on POV'.

I do agree with the notion that CHina is becoming increasingly capitalist and thus will be more and more apart of the same system. Countries that are economically connnected and interelated in a big way , tend not to resort to war with each other, as they lose as much as they gain.

[edit on 19-12-2004 by psteel]

Originally posted by psteel
Ooohhhhhh your speaking of China

Since you mentioned lieing to the people [Reasons for the Iraq war] and not allowing true freedoms [Patriot act], I thought you were refering to the USA

Which country in the world is most ideological country: North Korea.
Which country in the world is the second most ideological country: United States.

Oh, maybe reverse the order is better......

So, If all the country in this world become capitalist nations......then there will be world peace?

They'll buy up whatever they can, not to mention some stuff they will sell to smaller countires and anyone that wants anything...
www.comw.org...
Chinese Military Stats

[edit on 19-12-2004 by Nexus]

After China pilfered Los Alamos and who knows what else there is no telling what they might come up with. No offense to the chinese people =P Not like we didnt pilfer around. Any comments on the Sunburn?


www.fas.org...


www.freerepublic.com...

Originally posted by psteel

Originally posted by Broadsword20068
You people seem to forget this is the same country that drove over its own people with battle tanks. A country that lies to its people, and doesn't allow them true freedoms. If anything, the weapon ban should remain just that: a ban.

Ooohhhhhh your speaking of China

Since you mentioned lieing to the people [Reasons for the Iraq war] and not allowing true freedoms [Patriot act], I thought you were refering to the USA

Whats that line 'you are going to find that the truths we hold to, depend on POV'.

I do agree with the notion that CHina is becoming increasingly capitalist and thus will be more and more apart of the same system. Countries that are economically connnected and interelated in a big way , tend not to resort to war with each other, as they lose as much as they gain.

The Iraq Qar had legit reasons; France, Britain, most of the U.N. agreed and told Saddam to disarm. And they all went by the same intelligence that the United States did. The only difference is the U.S. followed through. Saddam looked like he would be a future threat. Perhaps not he himself, but his sons. However, it looks like Iran is becoming the big threat instead.

As for the Patriot Act, most Americans who know it despise it.

And in China, the media works with the government. The Chinese people are lied to by the media, which communicates the gov't. In America, the media are lying SOBs as well, except the media is a free media, and dislikes the gov't. The gov't lies of course, but then if the media discovers the truth of the lie, it reports it and thus makes the gov't officials look bad. So even if the media lies here, you can always count on them to bring out the truth of any corruption, or possible corruption, in the gov't here.

In China, that is not the case.

[edit on 19-12-2004 by psteel]

Whoops, meant to just post this:

The Iraq War had legit reasons; France, Britain, most of the U.N. agreed and told Saddam to disarm. And they all went by the same intelligence that the United States did. The only difference is the U.S. followed through. Europe (as usual) didn't. Saddam looked like he would be a future threat. Perhaps not he himself, but his sons. However, it looks like Iran is becoming the big threat instead.

As for the Patriot Act, most Americans who know it despise it.

And in China, the media works with the government. The Chinese people are lied to by the media, which communicates the gov't. In America, the media are lying SOBs as well, except the media is a free media, and dislikes the gov't. The gov't lies of course, but then if the media discovers the truth of the lie, it reports it and thus makes the gov't officials look bad. So even if the media lies here, you can always count on them to bring out the truth of any corruption, or possible corruption, in the gov't here.

In China, that is not the case.

Originally posted by proteinx

Originally posted by psteel
Ooohhhhhh your speaking of China

Since you mentioned lieing to the people [Reasons for the Iraq war] and not allowing true freedoms [Patriot act], I thought you were refering to the USA

Which country in the world is most ideological country: North Korea.
Which country in the world is the second most ideological country: United States.

Oh, maybe reverse the order is better......

So, If all the country in this world become capitalist nations......then there will be world peace?

Well it was worth a try anyway

Broad:

In China,You do not get to see what the government does not want you to see. Chinese government filters out things. US government gets S.O.Bs to lie for them.

Thinks it is too simplistic a position too take.

I was in China watching television. I had just come from a conference in Tokyo.

I was totally floored as I watched the Chinese Health Minister (dun know his name) on the tele, stating that for the whole of China, there were only 6 confirmed cases of SARS.

He then went on to state (extremely confidently if I may add), that the SARS situation was wholly under control in China and there was no reason for concern.

2 days later, the information dam burst. Reports of entire hosiptals and even TOWNS being subject to lock-down and quarantine over the last weeks ! Needless to say, out of political embarassment, he was fired within a week of that Oscar winning telecast.

Point being, it is difficult to say that one government is better or more moral than another.