I know what Abraham saw. I know What he Witnessed and What Happened to Sodom.

This is a very interesting hypothesis. I decided to comment simply because ancient dates and events are something I have looked into in the past. Upon first reading your thread I was ready to denounce your idea simply because of the dates of the two events. However, I remember that neither the date of the Minoan eruption, nor the years Abraham was alive, are known exactly. The eruption is generally said to have occurred around 1640 BCE or so, and Abraham is generally though to have been born around 1880 BCE ish. This would put the dates too far apart, however the Bible mentions that Abraham lived an unnaturally long time.

Something like 175 years if I remember correctly. So with the possibility that the dates of either event are a bit off, and the possibility that Abraham lived a very long time, the dates could very well match up. The least I can say is that there is no way to disprove that these events occurred too far apart for your hypothesis to make sense. I will not comment on the meat of your idea, as I just wanted to make the point that the dates could very well coincide with each other, or rather that the destruction of Sodom and Gommorah and the eruption of Santerini could have occurred around the same time.

Originally posted by Druscilla
reply to post by JimmyNeutron

 

What are you people arguing about?
There's corroborating historical evidence regarding events portrayed in that Bible all over the place.
Simply the mention of city names, locations, and personalities can be independently verified in the Historical data with zero attachment, reference or association with the Bible.

While I'm not a follower of, or believer in The Bible, what with being an Atheist, it's entirely a complete fallacy to not respect the book for some of its historical context alone.
Stories of supernatural acts by superbiengs may need be interpreted as attributable to natural occurrences as framed by the OP, and many stories due similarity found in other cultures are certainly made-up stories with made-up characters spun around real events that people during the times these stories were written may have had at least generational word-of-mouth memory.

There are, however, depictions of real events, even if the characters, and their roles in them are open to dispute as having existed at all.

Though I do not wish to get into a detailed analysis of the Bible and its words and depictions with you, I would refer you, in light of what you wrote here, to a detailed analysis of the KJ Scoffield edited edition. Druscilla, I respect all your educated and thoughtful responses in all threads. And I am no born again, evangelical ravenous christian. Having clarified thusly, I heartily recommend the edition I suggested for this reason: The Scoffield edited edition, among Christians and theologians concentrating on editing, referencing and historical factual analysis, (concentrating here on theologians as opposed to christians, and there is a distinct difference, historical and factual in nature), has a forward called the Panoramic View of Past, Present and Future Context of the Bible.
Theologians largely and widely consider it to be a foundation referential for interpretation. What that means is
Scoffield describes the Bible as an ongoing story of what occurred historically in the past, seen through a present and (in regards to future, even) prescient lens, of what was to come. That it should be taken, chapter by chapter and book by book, in toto, and only considered and interpreted through that particular lens, or way of looking at it. The foreward, combined with the footnotes, particular and huge, in the scope, of this particular version and editing, puts in perspective each book, each author, who they were, in what time they lived, and what their particular circumstances were. For instance, Jeremiah was the son of _______,lived in the time of this ruler,________, I think Nebechanezzar, and the year was ________, This government was in control, and the Roman king was________, Jews were enslaved but there was a Jewish King, and he was_________, and subject to the Roman King's rule, and this was in this province, ____________and this was the year________.
In other words, the footnotes tell the "story", really, give the total "panoramic" view, the surrounding, of what is going on at the time that particular book was written. And then as you progress through the reading of each book, you begin to see that there is a cyclical, again panoramic, nature to what transpires from year to year, chapter to chapter, war to war to defeat slavery and achieve freedom for all beings, etc.......
I couch my description of it in this way because, while not being a died in the wool Christian, I submit that there is no way to truly read and study this text, really, in light of the history of mankind, and not be in awe of what it has to say, and to truly observe, SEE, that we have, in fact, cycliclly, just as Scoffield shows us in that KJV that we are on a journey that has been repetitive, and "our fathers have always done worse that those before," etc., and so we suffer God's intended cycle again, till we learn something we haven't yet. And mindful that I say "God's" cycle, as at the same time that I understand and revere for the sheer stupendous cycle outlined and described that can be linked and equated with what happens today internationally, politically and socially and globally today, as it can then be observed to have happened the same way fifty or more years before,,,,and on and on. But it may not be necessarily an evidence of God or his word. I read a book long ago that theorized that both heaven and hell had their own version of the Bible, for I do certainly know that words and history have been changed, added, recharacterized to achieve a desired goal in the end...... whose control and desire is suited is debateable.....thereby making the wisest words of said book, to be about discernment.

In short, few are arguing. It happened. That means there will be archeological remains of it, and an ecological, chemical trace and explanation that is real and makes sense. Because it really happened. However, the meaning of that is still up in the air. All that is possible at the same time.

I don't aim those words at you. I suspect you likely know that. Logically, because one thing is true doesn't mean another is not. Many things are true that seem to be in competition, but really are not, because we proffer and judge with prejudice that has nothing to do with logic or what really happened. But we are only now beginning to see through physics that just because something happened does not mean the truth of it. And that is a whole other thread......

Anyhow, rambling now. I guess my point is thus: the true problem with palestine, all other muslim countries and israel, never mistake, is really and truly about Jerusalem. And this is because there are many, many who KNOW that it ALL happened, ever word described in every religious text, that seems unbelieveable and just supposition or story like to many in America today.......
Jerusalem is the seat of the temple, of the ARK and the Mosque of the most holy places for the muslim. They exist one on top of the other. That is the functional, REAL, issue of today and the real happening and archeology and history. And why does everyone think digging there is not THE MOST CONTROVERSIAL thing in the world, and the source, really, of all the war there.......
of course these things happened.

Dude, write it up and submit it to a journal!

the time and distance of Thera from the dead sea are 2 problematic for the eruption to have destrooyed Sod & Gom


from wiki:

The island is the site of one of the largest volcanic eruptions in recorded history: the Minoan eruption (sometimes called the Thera eruption), which occurred some 3600 years ago at the height of the Minoan civilization.

the supposed event of destruction of the sea side cities of Sodom & Gomorrah were written about long before 1600BC....

heck even the Flood was to have happened in 3100BC some 1,000 years after creation



what??
a jet stream of caustic sufuric acid traveling some 1000KM to get dumped on two cities near the beaches of the Dead Sea south of Palestine....sure




i myself unraveled the Mystery long ago.... the Sod & Gom Legend sprang from the eerie doposits that naturally formed there, thus beingin Awe to the impressionable youth to not disobey the Tribal God

I'm in agreement with you. Perhaps some of your 'points' others will find debatable, and perhaps not. Typing the distance of Thera to Sodom & Gomorrah, I found that this is a much used theory as to cause and effect. Many web pages dedicated to this assumption. I too could not care less what atheists want to interject, as it seems their sole purpose often times is purely argument, or self intertainment. Thus in addition to your theory, (likely the mechanics of the truth) I believe fully that GOD had a hand in this destruction of Sodom & Gomorrah, easily manipulating His Creation to serve His purposes. As for Lots wife, it could have been 'imagery' or 'literal' or The Hand of God. Needless to say, she disobeyed and received Gods wrath immediately.
Just as every Biblical miracle leaves skeptics who don't believe them possible, it matters not, it happened. And on every occasion that an incident happened by the Hand of God, it needs no explanation either, beyond that it happened.
There is a separation of those who will not heed Biblical History and teaching, and those who embrace them. For believers, first and second Solomon clearly demonstrate the outcome of disobedience and following their own contrary knowledge or customs.

When Lot and his family were leaving the city...Someone or something told them not to look back. As in..."get out of the city, go, head for the hills, keep running, never look back, just go"... Either Lot knew of a cave or saw a cave, he decide to head for it... Lot was leading the way and his daughters were young and able to move quickly, and able to keep up. His wife was too slow, she was falling behind... As the "fire, brimstone, sulfur, acid rain, volcanic ash" came closer and it rained down, they saw his wife, their mother, caught in it. They watched it burn her and everything up, turning her and the cities in to piles and columns of ash or stone.. Why do we know Lot's wife turned in this? Because Lot and his daughters saw it happen.. Since they survived, that's where this "story" begins...

I think there is some solid theory a meteor came down in the Alps and the fallout fried the area of Sodom and surrounding. Whoosh all up in flames. So the people of sodom were not bad, they just had rotten luck.

Originally posted by Druscilla
reply to post by JimmyNeutron

 

What are you people arguing about?
There's corroborating historical evidence regarding events portrayed in that Bible all over the place.
Simply the mention of city names, locations, and personalities can be independently verified in the Historical data with zero attachment, reference or association with the Bible.

While I'm not a follower of, or believer in The Bible, what with being an Atheist, it's entirely a complete fallacy to not respect the book for some of its historical context alone.
Stories of supernatural acts by superbiengs may need be interpreted as attributable to natural occurrences as framed by the OP, and many stories due similarity found in other cultures are certainly made-up stories with made-up characters spun around real events that people during the times these stories were written may have had at least generational word-of-mouth memory.

There are, however, depictions of real events, even if the characters, and their roles in them are open to dispute as having existed at all.

Druscilla - I think you and I are saying the same thing.

reply to post by JimmyNeutron

Show me when it was inaccurate... or take your sardonic chortle elsewhere.

Whoa!....that's not how it works!

You made a claim that the bible is 100% accurate in it's discovery of artefacts.....the balls in your court to prove it, you made the claim

Originally posted by Argyll
reply to post by JimmyNeutron

 

Show me when it was inaccurate... or take your sardonic chortle elsewhere.

Whoa!....that's not how it works!

You made a claim that the bible is 100% accurate in it's discovery of artefacts.....the balls in your court to prove it, you made the claim

Those that cast aspersions are the one's with the onus... If there is ample evidence against my assertion, it should be really quite easy for you to come up with something. I claim 100%. Is 100% provable - no. However, if you, a skeptic, put forth even one instance then I am wrong and have lost credibility. I'm quite confident that you can't, so prove me wrong by coming up with something for the world to see.

Ball is in your court.

What you firstly have to do is figure out where Sodom and Gomorrah are actually located, since there is still no consensus on whether they actually existed or not, let alone where they are likely to have existed. However if you believe your theory to be correct then this is how you’d go about it.

Once you’ve done that, and let’s say you decide its somewhere along the Jordan River Plain, you then need to try and find geochemical maps specifically of the soil (sometimes they are only produced for the bedrock) and look for any sulphur anomalies which may or may not exist. Finally cross reference these areas with known archaeological sites to see if you have a likely match. Any acid rain strong enough to actually cause the destruction as mentioned will have left a total ‘dead zone’ on the land, likely for a few 100 years so possibly cross reference local myths/stories for anything that sounds likely. I’m gonna guess that with the type of rocks one would expect to find in such areas – carbonates, gypsums and halites – a sulphur anomaly should stick out like dogs balls.

Finally when you’ve decided upon where to look take an environmental scientist with you, specifically one who deals with contaminated land remediation. Few geologists out there will know what to look for when investigating 4000+ year old sulphuric acid spills although they will tell you about every single rock in the area. Better yet, take a geologist who specialises in contaminated land remediation…

You may also want to investigate what is any solid products would be likely to be left behind after combining super strong acid rain with various rocks/muds and soils in your chosen area and see if there’s anywhere which has an aver abundance of this type of material. Having said all this though surficial geochemistry is definitely not one of my strong points so double check everything I've said; but hopefully this should help you define your focus a little more.

Originally posted by Argyll
reply to post by ericblair4891

 

I believe it should say that Lot's wife dissolved as if she were a pillar of salt- in the rain- . A pillar of salt in the rain would dissolve. Remember it was rain.

Sorry.....but if your saying that we should believe what is written in the bible....then you can't start changing what is written to fit in with your theory.

As I said before....nice theory.....but a theory based on a 2000 year old work of fiction.....is a fictional theory.

You sound as sure of yourself as the OP, and both of you based on incomplete understanding, overactive ego, and ignorance.

Either one of you may be right, but neither of you are likely entirely right, and yet...and yet you're both strangely certain that you are, with your only proof being what are literally mere theories and opinions in those heads which are tearing at the seams trying to contain those inflated egos.

reply to post by dogstar23


My ego is not inflated. Wait. It is. No. Wait. Now, it's not.

Oh, curse the temporal nature of life. No, wait. Praise it.


I ....


I have been watching Sherlock Holmes circa 1954. He's been keeping me sane. Mostly, it's a distraction. But one episode in particular told me I was on the right paht. It's the path of evidence. For example. In the episode, "The Jolly Hangman", Sherlock determined a fact on the slightest of evidence. He knew it wasn't suicide by noticing which way the fibers on the rope were bent. If the fibers were facing away from the noose and the dead man. Well, it was suicide.

But. Since the fibers of the rope were facing the man. It was murder. The direction of the residue motion concludes the dead man was pulled up from th opposite end of the rope. Also, proving the man did not kick out the chair and caused his own death.

It was murder.
en.wikipedia.org...(1954_TV_series)


In the case of Lot and family. It was also, murder. And the villian, God, or rather the natural incarnation, the volcano.

Lot. What a fabulous word. It means lots.

Lot

en.wikipedia.org...(biblical_person)

en.wikipedia.org...

Oh, what is my lot in life - question mark

Okay, you manics. I`m here. And I`m at the end of a very long journey. Next week I won`t be the same person. They`ll be an alter-EGO. Kerr pha. How would one spell that. Will return. stupid computer keyboard doing funky hyrogiphics
spelling kerr phunkle.....

cheerio

another long day

I'm back and I think I've forgotten what I was going to write about. Just kidding. Sidebar. I just saw a mink run along the riverbank. It's things such as this that make the day bearable. And the falcon. And the squirrels... etc. the critters.

So. Since this thread is cooling and lost some of it's 'fire', I can know use the tail end of this space to futhre dump my thoughts on 1613 bce. I've picked this as the date only because I like the number 13. The only conclusions you can make about Atlantis and Sodom and Gomorrah is they are linked by the volcano located at Santorini. My only frustration is that I can't link the plaques to the event. Something is muddled bigtime. About two weeks ago I was on the trail of Moses. I got there because I was trying to distract myself and I ended up watching something about the geometry of Washington DC. I'm not a big sucker for the illumianti. I am a big nerd when it comes to geometry. Because math can't be dishonest. It can be tricky, but that's not being untruthful. That's being locking in paradoxes and fun stuff to keep us occupied. (I am watching a female mallard act as if she were an icebreaker. there was a spot of ice near the edge and it's now split because the duck were impatient- have yo0u ever watched ducks. - you must)

I believe Moses and Akhenaten are the same. Not my theroy. It's just one that I think is very probably correct and makes a lot of sense. ( Some other ducks decided to fly over it. - to each its own i suppose) The problem is the dates.





Somebody somewhere has screwed up the chronology. This is what pisses my off. The whole thing is screwed up by the dates as given by historians, etc. I only know one date which is correct. 1613 bce. I know there's the plus and minus and such. The point I'm making is that we can rely on the carbon dating and the tree rings. And i'm not forgetting the ice cores from the poles. The reason we can date eruptions is because of the chemical signature. And the signature which is left in nature and within the geology. So. 1613 is a firm date.

Altantis 1613 bce destroyed.
Sodom and Gomorrah. 1613 bce destroyed.
Eygpt and the plaques... not sure yet. if it isn't during the reign of Akenaten. Then is earlier when the records were'nt great. Or they've messed up the dates in Eygpt. Meaning Akenten lived around 1613 and this would explain his move from Thebes and the religious revolution. Meaning. Moses and Abraham lived at the same time and this gets everyone's panties in a bunch and I'm not one to dig that tangle mess out of the dark.

Abraham. Hmm. Who is he?



*intermission*
Please. As I said. This is for me. I'm amusing myself. So. Abraham. He must have seen something which shook his world. I too have just seen one of the signs of the apocolypse...

www.theglobeandmail.com... f-spice/article5942472/?cmpid=rss1

In all honesty, I can't read beyond the headline. I'm trying not to laugh. I'm so weary.


Back to Abraham. Did you know one of my psychiatrist's name was Abraham? neato
Abraham is the father of Isreal. God spoke to him and said, "(i'm paraphrasing) You thou the man!""you be chosen"

I believe God spoke to Abraham. I believe Abraham saw something absolutely powerful. He saw something no one us on the planet have seen. Not one in the 7 billion of us have ever witnessed anything the like of which he gazed upon. He saw nature in all her fury. He saw a burning bush.

What looks like a burning bush?
How about a crimsom mushroom cloud?

If the material were ejected, it would be similar to other eruptions and it would look like a nuclear explosion.
Narrow base expanding outward as it reaches for the sky. That describes every bush and every tree I've ever seen.
Why didn't Abraham say he saw a burning tree?
Because dum dum, he lived in the desert. Not many trees there. There's a few bushes here and there in the valleys where Abraham took his goats to graze. Yes, let's not foget Abraham was a sheppard. A goat herder.

This is an unglamourous job. One that millions and millions of men have held without much acclaim. So, why remember Abraham?
Because he was a witness. And he acted and saved his kin. Lot. Who was his nephew. I may have stated it was his brother. But no, it was his nephew. Regardless, the reason we know about Abraham and Lot is because the survived. History is written by the winners and not the losers. The losers ignored the warnings and therefore we won't be hearing from them. Instead, we hear from the eye witness and those that endure the disaster and lived to tell the tale.




My arms are numb. Carpal tunnel syndrome. It hurts to write. This is not my ego driving me through the pain. It is a truth I want to tell before I take my exit and have a holiday.

This is work. This is toil. Nothing else.
Am I an athiest?
Agnostic?
Born-again?

What time is it?

Does God compell me to work?
DNA?
Both?

My gosh. Don't worry about that right now. The clue at hand is all you should be focusing on. And what's that pray- tell?.

Woah. You're all over the place boy. Get back to the point. Abraham.

So. This goat herder that no one previous had really cared about much was up atop a plateau. H

Your link seems broken.

But seriously, where do you find this stuff?

reply to post by Doodle19815


So sorry. I had to go. And can't write much now. Will continue and describe what the goat herder saw.

Pizza Hut Cologne. I really want to smell like yeast and cheeze. Geez.
I mean not to get into prophecy here, but you'll see it's a sign. Those that will be bringing the doom will be wearing the mark of evil. They are those employed in marketing.