How Christians would be treated under Sharia!

Originally posted by Aesir26
reply to post by LadyGreenEyes

 

Moslems revere Jesus/Isa the true prophet of the God Most High.
Jews hunted down and killed Christ and His Apostles, later perverting His message by grafting early Christianity onto Judaic beliefs between the 2nd to 4th centuries A.D.

Jesus is God, not just some prophet. I have been vilified online for stating that, by almost every Muslim that responded. Not all - ONE did not. Most, though, were quite rude.

Jesus was also Jewish. And, no, the Jews didn't kill Him. I did that; my sin is what He died for. He chose to die, that we could live, because He loves us that much. The first Christians were Jewish, so there was no "grafting" of beliefs, save grafting us non-Jewish believers onto His blessing.

I do understand how you believe He was a prophet. You have the right to believe as you wish, too. Simply stating what I believe, and that my belief will never change. I know my Savior. Can't deny Him.

All of our stated beliefs, though, don't address the violence in the link I posted. Yes, I do understand that not all Muslims support that. My husband, while deployed, worked with many very peaceful people, that were as appalled as we are by the violence of some. Perhaps more peaceful Muslims can speak up, and stand against the radical ones? They do no one any good.

reply to post by LadyGreenEyes


"I do understand how you believe He was a prophet."

I am not a Moslem.

Sin, by the way, is the Semitic Moon god associated with the cities Ur and Harran; father of Ishtar/Isis.
Living in/under Sin is gravitational bondage to the Earth through worship of the elemental forces of nature as opposed to Spirit as represented by the inverted pentagram (star) and star of Ishtar.

Judea is Babylon. The entire book of Esther is a tribute to Babylonian deities Ishtar (Esther) and Marduk (Mordecai). One look at the names of Jewish months in the Hebrew calendar shows the indisputable connection between Judea and Babylon. In fact, when Cyrus the Great "liberated" the Jews from captivity in Babylon, he attributed their "deliverance" back to Jerusalem to the will of the god, "Marduk", known to the Jews as, "Yahweh".

Proto-Hebrew is Phoenician; the Babylonian Talmud written in "Hebrew" is merely Aramaic. Modern written Hebrew is Aramaic, the official script of Babylon.

Jesus was not a Jew. Read the Epistles of Paul and the Gospel of John and Revelation in which the anti-Christ is clearly, clearly identified as the Jews.

Originally posted by LadyGreenEyes

Really, one ancient treaty, compared to lots of actual historical and recent events, doesn't speak well for how Islam treats Christians in reality.

The Koran and Hadith command Muslims to fight unbelievers until they are dead, converted to Islam, or permanently subjugated under Muslim domination.

For instance, Jews and Christians living under the Ottoman Empire

1. Had to pay a jizya (dhimmi) tax and kneel and have a sword ceremonially strike their neck as they paid their annual tribute.
2. Jews and Christians were not allowed to give Muslims orders in any way.
3. They were not allowed to ride a horse - a donkey was fine.
4. Weapons of any sort were prohibited.
5. The word of a Muslim would automatically be believed above that of a Christian or Jew in a court of law.

Christians and Jews lived in a state of subjugation under Islamic domination.

Like I have always said, these so called 'words of God' books the Qu'ran AND the Bible are nothing but books written by MEN, printed by MEN and read by MEN.
All religeous writings are open to mis-interpretation and corruption by men for THEIR OWN needs. Not for God's needs.
The TRUE word of God is written on your soul and is one that should never be forgotten, after all we all know what is right, what is wrong but unfortunately man corrupts those to follow HIS words, HIS laws and HIS philosophy, God just wants us to get along together in peace and love, man corrupts man, as evil begets evil.

Originally posted by DataWraith
Like I have always said, these so called 'words of God' books the Qu'ran AND the Bible are nothing but books written by MEN, printed by MEN and read by MEN.
All religeous writings are open to mis-interpretation and corruption by men for THEIR OWN needs. Not for God's needs.
The TRUE word of God is written on your soul and is one that should never be forgotten, after all we all know what is right, what is wrong but unfortunately man corrupts those to follow HIS words, HIS laws and HIS philosophy, God just wants us to get along together in peace and love, man corrupts man, as evil begets evil.

"God just wants us to get along together in peace and love, man corrupts man, as evil begets evil."

Yes, but to which god do you refer? Certainly not Yahweh...

"Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up." Hosea 13:16

"And I will sell your sons and your daughters into the hand of the children of Judah, and they shall sell them to the Sabeans, to a people far off: for Yahweh hath spoken it." (Joel 3:8)

"And Yahweh said unto Moses, Take all the heads of the people, and hang them up before Yahweh against the sun, that the fierce anger of Yahweh may be turned away from Israel." (Num 24:4)

"He said to them, "Thus says Yahweh, the God of Israel, 'Every man of you put his sword upon his thigh, and go back and forth from gate to gate in the camp, and kill every man his brother, and every man his friend, and every man his neighbor.'" (Ex 32:27)

"‘Now go and strike Amalek and utterly destroy all that he has, and do not spare him; but put to death both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’” Then Saul summoned the people and numbered them in Telaim, 200,000 foot soldiers and 10,000 men of Judah." (1Sam 15:3-4)

Originally posted by ollncasino

Originally posted by logical7

Muslims spread by the sword true but Islam dint. The message did spread wide due to the conquests.

It is true that Muhammad and other Islamic conquerors preferred to tax the conquered Jewish and Christian populations heavily rather than force them to convert.

Areas conquered by Muhammad (dark red) and his immediate successors.

Muhammad was brutal to those who had only pretended to convert to Islam. He ordered them burnt to death.

Sahih al-Bukhārī (Arabic: صحيح البخاري‎), one of the six canonical hadith collections (Al-Kutub Al-Sittah) of Sunni Islam states that he ordered 'hypocrites' (those who only pretend to be Muslim but are secretly disbelievers (kufr) ) burnt to death for not praying.

Bukhari (11:626)

- "The Prophet said, 'No prayer is harder for the hypocrites than the Fajr and the 'Isha' prayers and if they knew the reward for these prayers at their respective times, they would certainly present themselves (in the mosques) even if they had to crawl.' The Prophet added, 'Certainly I decided to order the Mu'adh-dhin (call-maker) to pronounce Iqama and order a man to lead the prayer and then take a fire flame to burn all those who had not left their houses so far for the prayer along with their houses.'"

Muhammad orders his men to burn alive those who do not present themselves at the mosque for prayer.

Bukhari :: Book 1 :: Volume 11 :: Hadith 626

Muhammad ordered hypocrites (those who had only pretended to convert to Islam) burnt to death.

really?? I know the hadith and it just tells how important it is to pray. It doesnt not mean that he actually did it or asked others to do it. It is just a strong displeasure followed by a statement to stress the idea.
Remember what Jesus pbuh him said about plucking out the eye or cutting off a hand that sinned rather than being thrown in hell with the whole body??
Was he encouraging self mutilation? Or stressing not to sin.
.
Its amazing that people study hadiths just to find faults in it!!!

Originally posted by LadyGreenEyes
Interesting......doesn't seem to line up with actual actions, though. Maybe, too, someone should tell those responsible in these cases that they aren't supposed to attack Christians.

not a short list

Really, one ancient treaty, compared to lots of actual historical and recent events, doesn't speak well for how Islam treats Christians in reality.

the recent events are a bit complicated and cant be over simplified and used to judge muslims. The events are completely wrong and unfortunate. There is a strong feeling of being wronged among muslims due to wars on them and their brothers in faith elsewhere and that can lead to violence which is not right at all.
.
But i would disagree that it was just this small treaty. the christians under islamic state were free to worship, even different sects (catholic, orthodox) prefered this state rather than being under the king of opposition sect as islamic state was neutral.
The jews found refuge within the islamic empire during the dark ages.
In islamic spain jews, christian and muslims scholars worked together to translate all available scientific text in arabic. Untill queen isabella forced muslims and jews to convert or leave.
And even now, in palestine the muslims and christians and even orthodox jews are great with each other and together in opposing israel policies.

reply to post by ollncasino

do you have a source for the things you said? A good enough source?

The Koran and Hadith command
Muslims to fight unbelievers until they
are dead, converted to Islam, or
permanently subjugated under Muslim
domination.

if that are all the options then they are reasonable right? Either submit and accept muslim rule, or if you feel islam is true then convert but if you remain hostile and either support or take part in violence against the Islamic state then fight and DIE.

For instance, Jews and Christians living under the Ottoman Empire
1. Had to pay a jizya (dhimmi) tax and
kneel and have a sword ceremonially
strike their neck as they paid their
annual tribute.

Jews and Christians were very rarely
dealt with on an individual basis;
instead they were clumped into a
millet system, which dealt with them as
a community. For example, the Rabbi,
in a millet-bashi, acted as the administrative officer responsible for
acting as representative for his
community to the state. Rather than
collecting the jiyzya individually, they
paid the state collectively, with a Chief
Rabbi administrating. This was the case for all recognized Christian and Jewish communities.10 The millet system allowed the respective
communities to enjoy a certain level of
administrative autonomy under their
representative. The millet leader may
have held certain powers to enforce
and legislate laws. He also served to plead the causes of his community to the Ottoman government.

2. Jews and Christians were not allowed to give Muslims orders in any
way.
3. They were not allowed to ride a
horse - a donkey was fine.

While they were allowed to hold
certain senior-level positions, such as
financial advisers or physicians, they
were always required to hold only
those positions subordinate to their
Muslim counterparts.

that does seem biased but its not any different from prefering a local first over a foreigner for a job.

4. Weapons of any sort were
prohibited.

this doesnt need any explanation

5. The word of a Muslim would
automatically be believed above that
of a Christian or Jew in a court of law.
Christians and Jews lived in a state of
subjugation under Islamic domination.

not true, many times judgements were given against muslims and the judicial system was unbias.

They enjoyed autonomy in religious
affairs and also area such as education.6 In this sense, Jews and Christians enjoyed certain privileges
under Ottoman Rule that was not
granted to minorities in Europe, where
Jews and Muslims were often
persecuted or held back due to
religious prejudice.

however we are talking about an empire with people of all shades so it was not an idealistic system ofcourse

They were even sometimes subjected to restrictions in
dress, or were harassed by certain
officials and neighbors. This shows
that despite the granting of dhimma to
the Christians and Jews, unofficial acts
of prejudice were sometimes condoned

also keep in mind that humans are humans

According to Bruce Masters, Westerners were
typically biased against Muslims, and
often distorted realities in the
relationships between Christians,
Muslims and Jews under the Ottoman Empire.3 As such, it must be noted that historical interpretations, or
misinterpretations, must be intensely
scrutinized when discussing the
position of Jews and Arabs under the
Ottoman Empire.

tell that story to the muslims in north africa burning down churches and murdering christians by the wagon load

Originally posted by butcherguy
What happened to that tolerant message?
It isn't reflective of the ideas of many Muslim leaders in the East today.

which Muslim leader !? most of them are puppets !!!

Originally posted by ollncasino

Bukhari (11:626)
- "The Prophet said, 'No prayer is harder for the hypocrites than the Fajr and the 'Isha' prayers and if they knew the reward for these prayers at their respective times, they would certainly present themselves (in the mosques) even if they had to crawl.' The Prophet added, 'Certainly I decided to order the Mu'adh-dhin (call-maker) to pronounce Iqama and order a man to lead the prayer and then take a fire flame to burn all those who had not left their houses so far for the prayer along with their houses.'"
Muhammad orders his men to burn alive those who do not present themselves at the mosque for prayer.
Bukhari :: Book 1 :: Volume 11 :: Hadith 626

Muhammad ordered hypocrites (those who had only pretended to convert to Islam) burnt to death.

edit on 30-11-2012 by ollncasino because: (no reason given)

the Hadith books of Muslims are just collection of history. the skillful persons pick out the right Hadithes according to references among them. so if you want to show wrong or weak Hadithes lots of them are in Muslim books. you do not have to labour. and you think billions are respecting a person who burnt people or spreaded slavery or marriage with a lot of people or told people to beat their wives !!!!!!!!!
it is odd.

Originally posted by maes2
and you think billions are respecting a person who burnt people or spreaded slavery or marriage with a lot of people or told people to beat their wives !!!!!!!!!
it is odd.

I never mentioned beating wives.

However, the Koran does clearly states that husbands are allowed to beat disobedient wives.

Koran 4:34

Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand.

Koran 4:34

In the Hadith Muslim, Muhammad struck his favourite wife in the chest. She had left the house without Muhammad's permission.

Aisha narrates, "He struck me on the chest which caused me pain."

Hadith Muslim 4:2127

Islam condones wife beating.

Originally posted by maes2
the Hadith books of Muslims are just collection of history.

the skillful persons pick out the right Hadithes according to references among them. so if you want to show wrong or weak Hadithes lots of them are in Muslim books.

That may be true for many Hadith (thousands exist) but you can't pretend that Sahih Muslim, which reveals Muhammad burnt people to death for not praying, is not considered very reliable by Sunni Muslims (who make up 85% of all Muslims).

Hadith bukari which reveals Muhammad struck his favourite wife for leaving the house without his permission is also a canonical text to Sunni Muslims.

Hadith Sahih Muslim and Hadith bukari are canonical texts - of the al-Kutub al-Sittah (six major hadiths) of the hadith in Sunni Islam. Sahih translates as authentic or correct.

Sahih_Muslim
Sahih_al-Bukhari

Sunni Muslims (85% of all Muslims) accept that Muhammad burnt people for not praying and struck his favourite wife for leaving the house without his permission. 100% of Muslims accept that the Koran tells us that a man can beat a disobedient wife.

Originally posted by mykingdomforthetruth
tell that story to the muslims in north africa burning down churches and murdering christians by the wagon load

exactly where? And ya incidences like that occur, its a big world full of people, many are not that religious, many plain violent etc
if you judge all muslims or islam by what a handful people do then should i judge christianity by the groups of christian who force to accept Christ and if not then slit the throat?
Would you go and correct their idea of who and how Jesus pbuh is? And at least say that its wrong, forcing religion, burning down places of worship is just wrong!

they just followed it to the last day of Muhammad ibn Abdullah. It is no longer honored.

Originally posted by LadyGreenEyes

Originally posted by Aesir26
reply to post by LadyGreenEyes

 

Moslems revere Jesus/Isa the true prophet of the God Most High.
Jews hunted down and killed Christ and His Apostles, later perverting His message by grafting early Christianity onto Judaic beliefs between the 2nd to 4th centuries A.D.

Jesus is God, not just some prophet. I have been vilified online for stating that, by almost every Muslim that responded. Not all - ONE did not. Most, though, were quite rude.

Jesus was also Jewish. And, no, the Jews didn't kill Him. I did that; my sin is what He died for. He chose to die, that we could live, because He loves us that much. The first Christians were Jewish, so there was no "grafting" of beliefs, save grafting us non-Jewish believers onto His blessing.

I do understand how you believe He was a prophet. You have the right to believe as you wish, too. Simply stating what I believe, and that my belief will never change. I know my Savior. Can't deny Him.

All of our stated beliefs, though, don't address the violence in the link I posted. Yes, I do understand that not all Muslims support that. My husband, while deployed, worked with many very peaceful people, that were as appalled as we are by the violence of some. Perhaps more peaceful Muslims can speak up, and stand against the radical ones? They do no one any good.

I agree with you as to the deity of Christ however your watering down of the work of Christ cross is disheartening.

Jew and Gentile are made one Body in Christ by their faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross and not because Jesus or God loved them.

God judged sinful man and said the soul that sinneth shall die. He substituted himself in our place took our death on himself and bore it on the cross. died the death and went to hell all of which we were sentenced too by God's judgement of our sin. His shed blood then made atonement for our sins before God in heaven that through our faith on his work we can have eternal life. and his resurrection gives us the promise that whether alive or dead physically we will join him in heaven for ever.

It is faith on his work that saves not the love of God or Christ. If you make Salvation anything other than the faith on Christ finished work of the cross it becomes another Gospel and that will place you under a curse.

It is obvious you are confused as to what the Gospel of Grace is all about and it would seem you have had teaching that is of men and not of the Preserved Holy Bible.

Originally posted by ChesterJohn

Originally posted by LadyGreenEyes

Originally posted by Aesir26
reply to post by LadyGreenEyes

 

Moslems revere Jesus/Isa the true prophet of the God Most High.
Jews hunted down and killed Christ and His Apostles, later perverting His message by grafting early Christianity onto Judaic beliefs between the 2nd to 4th centuries A.D.

Jesus is God, not just some prophet. I have been vilified online for stating that, by almost every Muslim that responded. Not all - ONE did not. Most, though, were quite rude.

Jesus was also Jewish. And, no, the Jews didn't kill Him. I did that; my sin is what He died for. He chose to die, that we could live, because He loves us that much. The first Christians were Jewish, so there was no "grafting" of beliefs, save grafting us non-Jewish believers onto His blessing.

I do understand how you believe He was a prophet. You have the right to believe as you wish, too. Simply stating what I believe, and that my belief will never change. I know my Savior. Can't deny Him.

All of our stated beliefs, though, don't address the violence in the link I posted. Yes, I do understand that not all Muslims support that. My husband, while deployed, worked with many very peaceful people, that were as appalled as we are by the violence of some. Perhaps more peaceful Muslims can speak up, and stand against the radical ones? They do no one any good.

I agree with you as to the deity of Christ however your watering down of the work of Christ cross is disheartening.

Jew and Gentile are made one Body in Christ by their faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross and not because Jesus or God loved them.

God judged sinful man and said the soul that sinneth shall die. He substituted himself in our place took our death on himself and bore it on the cross. died the death and went to hell all of which we were sentenced too by God's judgement of our sin. His shed blood then made atonement for our sins before God in heaven that through our faith on his work we can have eternal life. and his resurrection gives us the promise that whether alive or dead physically we will join him in heaven for ever.

It is faith on his work that saves not the love of God or Christ. If you make Salvation anything other than the faith on Christ finished work of the cross it becomes another Gospel and that will place you under a curse.

It is obvious you are confused as to what the Gospel of Grace is all about and it would seem you have had teaching that is of men and not of the Preserved Holy Bible.

you are in a sense saying to LadyGreenEyes not to be respectful of muslim belief? Do correct me if i am wrong. And you turn around and complain that muslims dont honour christians?!!!

Originally posted by pacifier2012

Originally posted by Spike Spiegle
That was actually a very nice read, a very nice read indeed.

Of course both religions are and should be natural allies.

S&F


SS

Only someone who doesn't understand the spiritual basis of both nations would say that.

The spiritual basis is that there is one God, Yahweh to the Jews and Christians, Allah to the Muslims. Same God, different interpretations of certain things. There's the spiritual basis. Sure, they diverge from there, but all ultimately serve the same God, so how does your comment have any merit?

I could see if you're looking at it from the standpoint of fundamentalists of Christianity and Islam, or from political mouthpieces from either, but not if you know the first thing about either religion.

reply to post by logical7


Sharia is slavery! Islam makes Nazis look like choir boys, it aims to enslave all of humanity beneath its' totalitarian yoke!

Originally posted by polyphemus75
reply to post by logical7

 

Sharia is slavery! Islam makes Nazis look like choir boys, it aims to enslave all of humanity beneath its' totalitarian yoke!

have you studied sharia or just aware of head and hand chopping and stoning to death?!!