How Christians would be treated under Sharia!

A treaty by prophet Muhammad pbuh to the monastery of St. Catherine in Sinai.

The Promise to St Catherine: “This is a message from Muhammad ibn Abdullah, as a covenant to those who adopt Christianity, near and far, we are with them. “Verily I, the servants, the helpers, and my followers defend them, because Christians are my citizens; and by God! I hold out against anything that displeases them. “No compulsion is to be on them. Neither are their judges to be removed from their jobs nor their monks from their monasteries. No one is to destroy a house of their religion, to damage it, or to carry anything from it to the Muslims' houses. “Should anyone take any of these, he would spoil God's covenant and disobey His Prophet. Verily, they are my allies and have my secure charter against all that they hate. “No one is to force them to travel or to oblige them to fight. The Muslims are to fight for them. If a female Christian is married to a Muslim, it is not to take place without her approval. She is not to be prevented from visiting her church to pray. Their churches are to be respected. They are neither to be prevented from repairing them nor the sacredness of their covenants. “No one of the nation (Muslims) is to disobey the covenant till the Last Day (end of the world).”

its a binding covenant to the muslim nation(ummah) till Last Day!

What happened to that tolerant message?

It isn't reflective of the ideas of many Muslim leaders in the East today.

The part about marriage...

I have several Muslim friends, and they've expressed a few times that they cannot marry a woman who isn't Muslim, even if she were Christian. She had to convert. Some of those friends are already married, and at least one of them married a former Christian (she converted so she could marry), and one of them really loved a Catholic but couldn't pursue it further because she was unwilling to convert out of respect for her family and faith.

It's a nice treaty, but I don't think the majority of Muslims go by it, at least anymore. I think they just tolerate and perhaps respect Christians, but that seems to be where it ends.


I feel sorry for those who cannot fully enjoy love because their religion forbids it when it comes in a form that's deemed "wrong"...

Originally posted by butcherguy
What happened to that tolerant message?

It isn't reflective of the ideas of many Muslim leaders in the East today.

you think each person who claims to follow islam does it in a way it should be? Many are a product of ignorance, arrogance and culture.

Originally posted by logical7

Originally posted by butcherguy
What happened to that tolerant message?

It isn't reflective of the ideas of many Muslim leaders in the East today.

you think each person who claims to follow islam does it in a way it should be? Many are a product of ignorance, arrogance and culture.

Every religion has their "westborough" types.

Either you hate and discriminate or you don't. Your religion is never a valid excuse to be evil.

Originally posted by AdamsMurmur
The part about marriage...

I have several Muslim friends, and they've expressed a few times that they cannot marry a woman who isn't Muslim, even if she were Christian. She had to convert. Some of those friends are already married, and at least one of them married a former Christian (she converted so she could marry), and one of them really loved a Catholic but couldn't pursue it further because she was unwilling to convert out of respect for her family and faith.

It's a nice treaty, but I don't think the majority of Muslims go by it, at least anymore. I think they just tolerate and perhaps respect Christians, but that seems to be where it ends.


I feel sorry for those who cannot fully enjoy love because their religion forbids it when it comes in a form that's deemed "wrong"...

i know that it happens and its not as simple as it looks.
Its just easier to confirm to a group. Man is a social, scared animal.
And marriage is an important step and decisions about kids etc.
Forcing someone to convert is outright wrong but there are more detailed rulings about marrying a christian.
I myself will be marrying a catholic christian girl soon inshallah and she wouldnt be forced to convert.

Originally posted by Cuervo

Originally posted by logical7

Originally posted by butcherguy
What happened to that tolerant message?

It isn't reflective of the ideas of many Muslim leaders in the East today.

you think each person who claims to follow islam does it in a way it should be? Many are a product of ignorance, arrogance and culture.

Every religion has their "westborough" types.

Either you hate and discriminate or you don't. Your religion is never a valid excuse to be evil.

very true!
I may put it this way.
People can be good or bad and these two varieties can be seen in every race and religion.

That was actually a very nice read, a very nice read indeed.

Of course both religions are and should be natural allies.

S&F


SS

Originally posted by Spike Spiegle
That was actually a very nice read, a very nice read indeed.

Of course both religions are and should be natural allies.

S&F


SS

Only someone who doesn't understand the spiritual basis of both nations would say that.

Originally posted by logical7
A treaty by prophet Muhammad pbuh to the monastery of St. Catherine in Sinai.

If Christians and Jews paid tribute to Muhammad, they were allowed to remain Christian and Jewish.

Tribute could be very heavy. The Jewish tribe in Khaibar had to pay 1/2 of their annual produce to Muhammad.

• In 628 Muhammad laid siege to the Jewish tribe in Khaibar with an army of 2,000.

After the Jews surrendered they were stripped of their possessions and expelled. Muhammad however relented and allowed the Jews to stay on in return for an annual tribute of 1/2 of their produce.

• In 630 Muhammad besieged Mecca with 10,000 men.

When Mecca surrendered with little resistance Muhammad didn't force the citizens to convert.

• In 630 Muhammad advanced to the Byzantine (Eastern Roman Empire) frontier with an army of 30,000.

He also negotiated a treaty with the Christian Prince of Aylah - in return for tribute the people retained freedom to worship as Christians.


Source: Gabriel, R.A. (2007) Muhammad: Islam's first great general. University of Oklahoma Press: Norman, USA.

Muhammad didn't force Jews and Christians to convert. He preferred to tax them very heavily.

For instance, the Jewish tribe in Khaibar, after being besieged and surrendering to Muhammad and his army of 2,000 was forced to pay 1/2 of their annual produce as tribute.


The model of not forcing Jews and Christians to convert but rather tax them heavily was a model followed by Muhammad's successors. In fact, taxing Jews and Christians was so lucrative for early Islamic conquerors that they were actively discouraged from converting to Islam

(source: Karsh, E. (2007) Islamic imperialism. Yale University press: New Haven & London.)

reply to post by logical7


Congratulations on the upcoming nuptials! I wish a happy future to you and your bride to be.

Originally posted by ollncasino

Originally posted by logical7
A treaty by prophet Muhammad pbuh to the monastery of St. Catherine in Sinai.

If Christians and Jews paid tribute to Muhammad, they were allowed to remain Christian and Jewish.

Tribute could be heavy however. The Jewish tribe in Khaibar had to pay 1/2 of their annual produce as tribute to Muhammad.

• In 628 Muhammad laid siege to the Jewish tribe in Khaibar with an army of 2,000.

After the Jews surrendered they were stripped of their possessions and expelled. Muhammad however relented and allowed the Jews to stay on in return for an annual tribute of half of their produce.

• In 630 Muhammad besieged Mecca with a force of 10,000 men.

When Mecca surrendered with little resistance Muhammad didn't force the citizens to convert.

• In 630 Muhammad Muhammad advanced to the Byzantine (Eastern Roman Empire) frontier with an army of 30,000.

He also negotiated a treaty with the Christian Prince of Aylah - in return for tribute the people retained freedom to worship as Christians.

Muhammad didn't force Jews and Christians to convert. He preferred to tax them very heavily.

For instance, the Jewish tribe in Khaibar, after being besieged and surrendering to Muhammad and his army of 2,000 was forced to pay 1/2 of their annual produce as tribute to Muhammad.

edit on 30-11-2012 by ollncasino because: (no reason given)

after planning to attack muslims in medina, being in turn attacked before that, being seiged and defeated

As a result of the victory, in accordance with the Jewish law, all male Jews could be executed. The Jews pleaded for mercy and undertook to pay one half of the produce of their lands to the Muslims as annual tribute. The Holy Prophet took a lenient view. He accepted the terms offered by the Jews and a treaty was executed accordingly. The Jews undertook to remain faithful to the Muslims and accepted their dominance.

doesnt seem like a bad deal for the life of every adult male.
And it was only for them as they were active enemies and not for peaceful jews and christians. For them (jizya) it was a small amount and only from adult males not old, women and kids and after paying that they need not join the muslim army that was compulsory for muslim males.
Muslims on the other hand had to pay 2.5% annual savings to the state which could go more than jizya.

Originally posted by NiteNGale2
reply to post by logical7

 

Congratulations on the upcoming nuptials! I wish a happy future to you and your bride to be.

edit on 30-11-2012 by NiteNGale2 because: .

thanx a lot!

Originally posted by logical7

The Jews pleaded for mercy and undertook to pay one half of the produce of their lands to the Muslims as annual tribute.

The Holy Prophet took a lenient view. He accepted the terms offered by the Jews and a treaty was executed accordingly.

The Jews undertook to remain faithful to the Muslims and accepted their dominance.

doesn't seem like a bad deal for the life of every adult male.

It doesn't seem like a bad deal at all if one is a Muslim conqueror.

Many non-Muslims don't know that Muhammad was a very successful general who led armies of up to 30,000 men.

In the space of a single decade Muhammad

• Fought 8 major battles,
• Led 18 raids,
• Planned another 38 military operations where others were in command but operating under his orders and strategic direction.

HistoryNet

Here is a brief summary of some of his military exploits

624 - Battle of Badr involved Muslims versus a superior Meccan Army. The Muslim achieved an unexpected Victory and won much booty.

624 Muhammad laid siege to the Qainuqa Jewish tribe in Medina. He expelled the tribe and divided their property amongst his followers. Allegedly, Muhammad had planned to kill the tribe until dissuaded from doing so by a local sheikh Abdullah ibn Ubayy.

625 - Battle of Mount Uhud. Muslim defeat. Over 70 Muslims killed.

625 - Muhammad lays siege to Nadir Jewish tribe in Medina. He drives the Jewish tribe out of Medina and divides their property amongst his followers.

626 - Muhammad sends small force to fight hostile tribes in the area of Dumat al-Jandal, 500 miles North East of Medina. The raid was successful.

627 - Unsuccessful siege of Medina by Mecca/Bedouin army of 10,000.

627 - Muhammad lays siege to Quraaiza Jewish tribe in Medina. 600 to 800 males beheaded on Muhammad's orders according to the first biography of Muhammad's life. Women and children enslaved. Property divided amongst his followers. Muhammad kept one beautiful Jewish girl who had seen her husband being beheaded for himself. Later he asked her to marry him. She refused.

628 Muhammad lays siege to Jewish tribe in Khaibar with an army of 2,000. The Jews surrendered after a month. Jews stripped of possessions and ordered to leave. Lacking manpower to till the land, Muhammad relented and allowed the Jews to stay on in return for an annual tribute of half of their produce.

Number of other Jewish communities surrendered on similar terms.

629 Muhammad renounces the 10 year truce with Mecca.

630 Muhammad sets off to besiege Mecca with a force of 10,000 men. Mecca surrenders with little resistance.

Muhammad does not force non Muslims in Mecca to convert. Leading citizens of Mecca incorporated into Muhammad's administration.

630 Battle of Hunayn - Muslim army of 12,000 men against Bedouin tribe of Hawazin. Muslim victory.

630 Muhammad advances to Byzantine (Eastern Roman Empire) frontier with an army of 30,000, 500 miles North of Medina.

630 Treaty negotiated with Christian Prince of Aylah - In return for tribute freedom to worship as Christians.

631 Tribal dignitaries from all over Arabian peninsula flock to Mecca to profess subservience and pay tribute.

631/632 Preparation for campaign in Transjordan and Southern Palestine.

632 Muhammad dies.

Source: Gabriel, R.A. (2007) Muhammad: Islam's first great general. University of Oklahoma Press: Norman, USA.

Muhammad was a very successful general who spread Islam's domination by the sword.

reply to post by ollncasino


indeed he was a very successful general.
But the article has a language that (i hope unintentionally) is trying to show it as one sided aggression. And ya, the Meccans broke the peace treaty by killing some tribesmen who were allies of the muslim side.
The arab area was no novice for wars and just the growing strength of the muslim ummah was seen as threat by other tribes over that a new religion that rejected their gods as false. It was enough to escalate into wars.
Muslims spread by the sword true but Islam dint. The message did spread wide due to the conquests.

reply to post by ollncasino

Many people don't know that Muhammad was a very successful general who led armies of up to 30,000 men.

Yes, but...
Woe be to a member of ATS that dares to say that Islam is a religion that has been spread by the sword.

Originally posted by logical7

Muslims spread by the sword true but Islam dint. The message did spread wide due to the conquests.

It is true that Muhammad and other Islamic conquerors preferred to tax the conquered Jewish and Christian populations heavily rather than force them to convert.

Areas conquered by Muhammad (dark red) and his immediate successors.

Muhammad was brutal to those who had only pretended to convert to Islam. He ordered them burnt to death.

Sahih al-Bukhārī (Arabic: صحيح البخاري‎), one of the six canonical hadith collections (Al-Kutub Al-Sittah) of Sunni Islam states that he ordered 'hypocrites' (those who only pretend to be Muslim but are secretly disbelievers (kufr) ) burnt to death for not praying.

Bukhari (11:626)

- "The Prophet said, 'No prayer is harder for the hypocrites than the Fajr and the 'Isha' prayers and if they knew the reward for these prayers at their respective times, they would certainly present themselves (in the mosques) even if they had to crawl.' The Prophet added, 'Certainly I decided to order the Mu'adh-dhin (call-maker) to pronounce Iqama and order a man to lead the prayer and then take a fire flame to burn all those who had not left their houses so far for the prayer along with their houses.'"

Muhammad orders his men to burn alive those who do not present themselves at the mosque for prayer.

Bukhari :: Book 1 :: Volume 11 :: Hadith 626

Muhammad ordered hypocrites (those who had only pretended to convert to Islam) burnt to death.

Originally posted by ollncasino

Originally posted by logical7
A treaty by prophet Muhammad pbuh to the monastery of St. Catherine in Sinai.

If Christians and Jews paid tribute to Muhammad, they were allowed to remain Christian and Jewish.

Tribute could be very heavy. The Jewish tribe in Khaibar had to pay 1/2 of their annual produce to Muhammad.

• In 628 Muhammad laid siege to the Jewish tribe in Khaibar with an army of 2,000.

After the Jews surrendered they were stripped of their possessions and expelled. Muhammad however relented and allowed the Jews to stay on in return for an annual tribute of 1/2 of their produce.

• In 630 Muhammad besieged Mecca with 10,000 men.

When Mecca surrendered with little resistance Muhammad didn't force the citizens to convert.

• In 630 Muhammad advanced to the Byzantine (Eastern Roman Empire) frontier with an army of 30,000.

He also negotiated a treaty with the Christian Prince of Aylah - in return for tribute the people retained freedom to worship as Christians.


Source: Gabriel, R.A. (2007) Muhammad: Islam's first great general. University of Oklahoma Press: Norman, USA.

Muhammad didn't force Jews and Christians to convert. He preferred to tax them very heavily.

For instance, the Jewish tribe in Khaibar, after being besieged and surrendering to Muhammad and his army of 2,000 was forced to pay 1/2 of their annual produce as tribute.


The model of not forcing Jews and Christians to convert but rather tax them heavily was a model followed by Muhammad's successors. In fact, taxing Jews and Christians was so lucrative for early Islamic conquerors that they were actively discouraged from converting to Islam

(source: Karsh, E. (2007) Islamic imperialism. Yale University press: New Haven & London.)

edit on 30-11-2012 by ollncasino because: (no reason given)

Usury is strictly forbidden in Islam and Christianity.
It is, however, the trademark of Judaism.

Jesus said, "If you have money, don't lend it at interest. Rather, give to someone from whom you won't get it back." (Gospel of Thomas)

“O ye who believe! Fear Allah, and give up what remains of your demand for usury." (al-Baqarah, 2:279)

Interesting......doesn't seem to line up with actual actions, though. Maybe, too, someone should tell those responsible in these cases that they aren't supposed to attack Christians.

not a short list

Really, one ancient treaty, compared to lots of actual historical and recent events, doesn't speak well for how Islam treats Christians in reality.

reply to post by LadyGreenEyes


Moslems revere Jesus/Isa the true prophet of the God Most High.
Jews hunted down and killed Christ and His Apostles, later perverting His message by grafting early Christianity onto Judaic beliefs between the 2nd to 4th centuries A.D.