Egyptian Stone Vases-The Smoking Gun In The Advanced Technology Debate?

Originally posted by bottleslingguy
reply to post by Hanslune

 

you were wondering why the objects were not perfect if they were built by AA, that implies you know more about AA technology than you are admitting. Why would you expect them to be perfect?

AA would hopefully have had technology at least equal to what we have now and I would suspect if they could cross instellar space....... and we can manufacture exact replicas from stone - so why couldn't they?

So what is your response to stone vessels being made with the Pharaohs name on them?

Originally posted by thetiler


Incredible. Mainstream education truly needs to wake up and smell the roses oops, I mean smell the advanced stone work of Egyptian antiquity with the nostrils not of scentless humans but truly bloodhounds of great intellectuals that actually USE their mental facilities to a very high degree of thought and correct intuition

Yep they make up a lot of stuff and get all excited about personal incredulity. You might want to read the thread to see how their ideas are no supported in reality

Posting cool material about Dunn and West is to me what makes ATS truly one of the best web sites on the net. But of course the keepers of the old school way of thinking that the use of the PRIMITIVE tools used by the ancient egyptians is the way it really is, hurts the progress of learning. No wonder kids that go to school have no to little inspiration on subjects of such importance.

As far as know ancient Egyptian stone vessel manufacturing doesn't make it into grade 1-12 education in the USA - perhaps someone more knowledge of USA HS education can comment

I just want to say thank you all for contributing to this thread. I appreciate and respect everyone's views on this subject.


Here are some more pictures of stone work. Remember these stone pieces were crafted before the advent of the Lathe, Wheel or Pottery Wheel(according to mainstream history).

I have provided links for when those tools were "invented" in Egypt in past posts in this thread.

How these pieces were crafted before the use of these tools is exactly why I am so fascinated with them. Either the Ancient Egyptians that crafted these had the Lathe, Wheel and Pottery Wheel at a time we are told they did not by mainstream history/archaeology.

Or perhaps they used other tools, techniques or technologies still lost to modern man.

They also MAY be remnants of a lost civilization. Until we can definitively date stone carving, I feel we must continue to ask these questions.


Stone Pyriform Mace-Head, Naqada II or III, c. 3600 - 3100 B.C.
Source


Club heads, Naqada I/II Period, 4000-3100BC
]Source


Vase, c.3000BC (diorite)
]Source


Vase with Two Handles, c.3000BC (granite)
]Source

Originally posted by mcx1942
Either the Ancient Egyptians that crafted these had the Lathe, Wheel and Pottery Wheel at a time we are told they did not by main stream history/archaeology.

The archaeologists don't tell you that - the evidence does and they are capable of making these without these technologies, I'd suggest you might want to follow the technology of bead making .

As noted other civilizations and cultures also cut and worked hard stone

Or perhaps they used other tools, techniques or technologies still lost to modern man

Possible

They also MAY be remnants of a lost civilization. Until we can definitively date stone carving, I feel we must continue to ask these questions.

Based on the information we have now they were made by the AE, no evidence for a civilization X exists in the Nile valley.

You might want to look up the following

El Khouli, 1978 Vol 2 page 799, Porter and Moss, 1981, page 905, Jaros-Deckert, 1984 page 1285

These deal with archaeological evidence for the workshops in which these vessels were made, sorry cannot find them on line

mcx1942

here's an interesting subject for you to follow, perhaps you will find more relevant material.

read the text called ENMERKAR AND THE LORD OF ARRATA. it's an akkadian text. do a comparative analysis with nimrod and enmerkar. follow that trail to egypt, where you can connect the dots to narmer at abydos. check out the osirieon.

in effect, some dude named enmerkar/nimrod/narmer "became a mighty (nephilim) one" after he was already born. he migrated to egypt after the fiasco at babel. he built the osirieon (i theorize he built a pyramid on top of it too). theoretically, the technology you're witnessing was brought to egypt by him. not because it wasn't already there. but because the black sea flood wiped the water fronts of the fertile crescent and civ in these areas had to be rebuilt.

he brought the tech back there. so you have the original tech, mingling with the same tech returning some 200 years later, and then the slow tapering away and hording of the knowledge, after that. the knowledge didn't vanish, it just became a royal matter.

Originally posted by Hanslune

Originally posted by bottleslingguy
reply to post by Hanslune

 

you were wondering why the objects were not perfect if they were built by AA, that implies you know more about AA technology than you are admitting. Why would you expect them to be perfect?

AA would hopefully have had technology at least equal to what we have now and I would suspect if they could cross instellar space....... and we can manufacture exact replicas from stone - so why couldn't they?

So what is your response to stone vessels being made with the Pharaohs name on them?

what is so aesthetic about exact replicas? maybe they had a sense of style and asymmetrical beauty? maybe they're not boring. the pharaohs probably got them from their bosses in the sky as proof to the masses that the pharoahs were the "real deal". The aliens gave us kingship and it only makes sense they would have underbosses. Aliens had better things to do than rule daily over us.

I wonder if at a certain point, rather than drilling or grinding on the inside of the vases, you might be able to just throw some hard rocks in there and kind of roll it back and forth and let the rocks do the smashing and grinding for you. Like rock polishing in a tumbler, except the tumbler is the inside of the vase. It might take a long time, but it would be a lot easier. You could get children to do it.

Originally posted by bottleslingguy

what is so aesthetic about exact replicas? maybe they had a sense of style and asymmetrical beauty? maybe they're not boring. the pharaohs probably got them from their bosses in the sky as proof to the masses that the pharoahs were the "real deal". The aliens gave us kingship and it only makes sense they would have underbosses. Aliens had better things to do than rule daily over us.

That's what machines do, but yes one can go all fantasy about the subject in the short term but long term you come right back to the reality of those AE doing the work.....

Originally posted by Harte

Originally posted by Philippines

Originally posted by Harte
No lathe or wheel is known to have been in use at the time.

No, I'm afraid you're in for it if you want to do it "the old-fashioned way."

You will need to shape the outside with a small pounder, then smooth it with rubbing stones. I'd suggest doing the outside first, as pounding on it after the inside is done could be hard on your inventory!

Harte

Mmmmmk... So I will have to find the right rock, or make a plate lol.

Do you know of any images of the copper tubing used before? I am googling around with no luck. I am curious if they rolled copper sheets to form a tube, or the tube was cast from molten copper.

Thanks for all your info!

AFAIK, no tube saws have ever been found, which makes sense, really.

That is, copper is still valuable today, and even once they started making bronze, copper is required for that.

Harte

Thanks again for the re-help! And yeah, while there probably are some undiscovered / unpublished finds of coring tubes, I can completely understand them becoming reclaimed into something else. I've seen it before with quarried stone being reused for rebuilding a place after being destroyed several times, and thus, several languages carved on the stones.

reply to post by Hanslune

why don't/can't they do it today?

Originally posted by bottleslingguy
reply to post by Hanslune

 

why don't/can't they do it today?

My personal opinion is that it CAN be done today, but people are lacking the knowledge and discipline to do this. For example, the pic below is of a work in progress home-made broom using only rattan and grasses.

Why do people in the USA not make their own brooms? Or do they?

I think it's easier to buy a plastic water container than carve out a stone one, just like it is easier to buy a broom from a store as opposed to make it yourself.

Originally posted by Philippines

Originally posted by bottleslingguy
reply to post by Hanslune

 

why don't/can't they do it today?

My personal opinion is that it CAN be done today, but people are lacking the knowledge and discipline to do this. For example, the pic below is of a work in progress home-made broom using only rattan and grasses.

Why do people in the USA not make their own brooms? Or do they?

I think it's easier to buy a plastic water container than carve out a stone one, just like it is easier to buy a broom from a store as opposed to make it yourself.

that's really beautiful. nice work, whoever did it!
i'm going with, ain't no way they made that schist fluted vase neck with a rock or anything even remotely similar. have you seen that thing? it's paper thin schist. schist is like flint. it splinters and chips just by looking at it lol

i would be more inclined to believe they learned how to liquify stone and just poured it into molds, rather than believing that they did the stuff shown in this thread, with copper age implements. i mean seems unlikely. is it possible they learned some way to liquify stone?

Originally posted by bottleslingguy
reply to post by Hanslune

 

why don't/can't they do it today?

Lack of expertise and desire. However some AE stone carving has been replicated, see below. If you really want a stone vessel in the AE style offer up a prize for an artist to spend the years to develop the technique and skill a quarter of million USD should do the trick


A stone carver in the AE style

He claims to have completed a 1/2 replica of this stela

Originally posted by Philippines

Originally posted by bottleslingguy
reply to post by Hanslune

 

why don't/can't they do it today?

My personal opinion is that it CAN be done today, but people are lacking the knowledge and discipline to do this. For example, the pic below is of a work in progress home-made broom using only rattan and grasses.

Why do people in the USA not make their own brooms? Or do they?

I think it's easier to buy a plastic water container than carve out a stone one, just like it is easier to buy a broom from a store as opposed to make it yourself.

cutting stone is much harder because no matter how much you want to do something, if it is physically impossible, then I think we have to come to our senses and realize these things were done with tools more sophisticated than ropes and sticks with a chunk of quartz. Not saying I know how this was done but I do know how easy it is to make mistakes even with today's level of technology. Sure even dripping water can carve stones but realistically how long do we have for each of these to be made? Using such crude tools it would take forever to do these things, maybe humans did the work but they sure as hell didn't come up with the methods and equipment.

Skeptics love to use the amnesic/genius argument. the ancient people were smart enough to pull it off yet stupid enough to forget how they did it. It's easy to weave brooms but very very hard to shape and cut very hard stones.

why don't you see how long it takes to weave a broom and then how long it takes to make one of these vases with crude tools (read: bamboo tech). how many mistakes will it take to finally get it perfect and then how long would it take to make them like these? seriously how long would each of these take to make with sticks and a chunk of quartz?

Originally posted by Hanslune

Originally posted by bottleslingguy
reply to post by Hanslune

 

why don't/can't they do it today?

Lack of expertise and desire. However some AE stone carving has been replicated, see below. If you really want a stone vessel in the AE style offer up a prize for an artist to spend the years to develop the technique and skill a quarter of million USD should do the trick


A stone carver in the AE style

He claims to have completed a 1/2 replica of this stela

"lack of expertise and desire." is about the lamest excuse I've ever heard. "some" has been replicated? a 12"X12" tablet? are you seriously saying this proves how they made these vases?

this is from that link you gave: "He noted that because of the sideways wobble caused by the back and forth motion of the tube driven by the bow, the channel cut is some-what wider than the tube."

this is one of the things we would see all over this stuff and we don't. we would see the results of the crude tools used yet we actually see proof that very high speed tools were used and we see it all over the place. And much higher than a bow saw could do.

www.gizapower.com...

"So far, Egyptologists have not given credence to any speculation that suggests that the builders of the pyramid might have used machines instead of manpower in this massive construction project. In fact, they do not give the pyramid builders the intelligence to have developed and used the simple wheel. It is quite remarkable that a culture, which possessed sufficient technical ability to make a lathe and progressed from there to develop a technique that enabled them to machine radii in hard diorite, would not have thought of the wheel before this."

"It is true that intricate objects can be created without the aid of machinery, simply by rubbing the material with an abrasive such as sand, using a piece of bone or wood to apply pressure. The relics Petrie was looking at, however, in his words, "could not be produced by any grinding or rubbing process which pressed on the surface."

The object Petrie was studying would hardly be considered remarkable to the inexperienced eye. It was a simple rock bowl. Studying the bowl closely, however, Petrie found that the spherical concave radius, forming the dish, had an unusual feel to it. Closer examination revealed a sharp cusp where two radii intersected. This indicates that the radii were cut on two separate axes of rotation. "

you can champion bamboo technology but it will never be a reality.

Originally posted by bottleslingguy

Originally posted by Philippines

Originally posted by bottleslingguy
reply to post by Hanslune

 

why don't/can't they do it today?

My personal opinion is that it CAN be done today, but people are lacking the knowledge and discipline to do this. For example, the pic below is of a work in progress home-made broom using only rattan and grasses.

Why do people in the USA not make their own brooms? Or do they?

I think it's easier to buy a plastic water container than carve out a stone one, just like it is easier to buy a broom from a store as opposed to make it yourself.

cutting stone is much harder because no matter how much you want to do something, if it is physically impossible, then I think we have to come to our senses and realize these things were done with tools more sophisticated than ropes and sticks with a chunk of quartz. Not saying I know how this was done but I do know how easy it is to make mistakes even with today's level of technology. Sure even dripping water can carve stones but realistically how long do we have for each of these to be made? Using such crude tools it would take forever to do these things, maybe humans did the work but they sure as hell didn't come up with the methods and equipment.

Skeptics love to use the amnesic/genius argument. the ancient people were smart enough to pull it off yet stupid enough to forget how they did it. It's easy to weave brooms but very very hard to shape and cut very hard stones.

why don't you see how long it takes to weave a broom and then how long it takes to make one of these vases with crude tools (read: bamboo tech). how many mistakes will it take to finally get it perfect and then how long would it take to make them like these? seriously how long would each of these take to make with sticks and a chunk of quartz?

edit on 4-12-2012 by bottleslingguy because: (no reason given)

I think the question is hard to answer for people without a perspective on a lifestyle with a lot of time. In today's Western world, everything is so fast that it can be hard to imagine some people would spend half of their life (or more) working on 1 item/project -- whatever that is.

To answer your question about the broom and why I brought it up, is a small scale time investment compared to stone cutting. In this case, the brooms are made by an 80+ year old man that was also teaching me some rattan weaving. For him to make a broom, he has to do the following:

1. Harvest the grass at the right time of the year (after they have flowered / dried)
2. Clean the grass (get rid of the seeds, this part of the grass will be the sweeping part of the broom)
3. Harvest rattan vines (like a bamboo vine)
4. Strip/clean your rattan to be workable strips
5. Weave away -- if you know how.
6. Put a straight stick in the middle of the handle
7. Weave around the grass/stick stem to make your pole/handle

This is not a process of doing 1 broom at a time, you work on as many as you can that you have the resources for. The process for each broom is hard to say because multiple are worked on at the same time. If I had to guess, the entire process to make 1 broom would be around 5-7 days -- if you are skilled.

As for cutting stone I think it is the same thing, if you have the skill and time... much more time than a broom! Also, I don't have the answer for all of the stonework because I don't have the experience. The copper coring theory so far is very plausible, but if you want to hold on to something, Harte has explained that a coring tube has never been found to his/her knowledge. There are also accounts of people doing this like the ancient egyptyians, but in modern times.

Hopefully this weekend I will get some copper pipe and make some coring tools to first try on limestone, and then get to something more hard.

Originally posted by bottleslingguy

"lack of expertise and desire." is about the lamest excuse I've ever heard.

You obviously haven't read Dunn's book and how he explains why there is no evidence for his machines, now that is a LAME excuse, lol.. Please explain why a stone mason would want to spend decades learning a technique that has no commercial value - to the level of expertiness you seem to be demanding?

If you want that offer a large prize to give someone the incentive - now why won't you do that?

"some" has been replicated? a 12"X12" tablet? are you seriously saying this proves how they made these vases?

Who said proof? Just evidence it can be done. You got any 'Proof" that the AE couldn't do it? Now I'm not asking you to prove a negative I'm asking you how long you've personally worked at trying these procedures?

this is from that link you gave: "He noted that because of the sideways wobble caused by the back and forth motion of the tube driven by the bow, the channel cut is some-what wider than the tube."

this is one of the things we would see all over this stuff and we don't. we would see the results of the crude tools used yet we actually see proof that very high speed tools were used and we see it all over the place. And much higher than a bow saw could do.

Petrie changed his mind some decades later, see my post above date 1907. To have any legs to stand on you'll need to find that technology. Doing the incredulous observer doesn't really cut it, not now nor later

The gentleman I link to has replicated the procedure - but you won't accept it will you? lol

If you are actually interested in this specific area of archaeology I would suggest you find and read, Dennis Stock's book, Tools of Ancient Craftsmen. You would then be able to face the facts with a bit more reason

that's really beautiful. nice work, whoever did it!
i'm going with, ain't no way they made that schist fluted vase neck with a rock or anything even remotely similar. have you seen that thing? it's paper thin schist. schist is like flint. it splinters and chips just by looking at it lol

i would be more inclined to believe they learned how to liquify stone and just poured it into molds, rather than believing that they did the stuff shown in this thread, with copper age implements. i mean seems unlikely. is it possible they learned some way to liquify stone?

edit on 4-12-2012 by undo because: (no reason given)

Yeah I am a big fan of rattan weaving. It is beautiful, but to the people that do it, it's just a way of life. If they need a chicken coop or roost, they weave it. If you want a backpack - weave it. If you want a knife, smith it etc... or trade money or whatever else you have.

I am unsure which vase you're referring to that is like schist though, my geology is not that great =D

The fluting part I am not sure about, but then again I have no experience doing this. Maybe the schist one took much more time and used more lubrication (sand) rubbing on the thing like a tumbler instead of direct stone contact? Just speculating, I don't know and don't know which piece you're talking about =D

Originally posted by Philippines

Originally posted by bottleslingguy

Originally posted by Philippines

Originally posted by bottleslingguy
reply to post by Hanslune

 

why don't/can't they do it today?

My personal opinion is that it CAN be done today, but people are lacking the knowledge and discipline to do this. For example, the pic below is of a work in progress home-made broom using only rattan and grasses.

Why do people in the USA not make their own brooms? Or do they?

I think it's easier to buy a plastic water container than carve out a stone one, just like it is easier to buy a broom from a store as opposed to make it yourself.

cutting stone is much harder because no matter how much you want to do something, if it is physically impossible, then I think we have to come to our senses and realize these things were done with tools more sophisticated than ropes and sticks with a chunk of quartz. Not saying I know how this was done but I do know how easy it is to make mistakes even with today's level of technology. Sure even dripping water can carve stones but realistically how long do we have for each of these to be made? Using such crude tools it would take forever to do these things, maybe humans did the work but they sure as hell didn't come up with the methods and equipment.

Skeptics love to use the amnesic/genius argument. the ancient people were smart enough to pull it off yet stupid enough to forget how they did it. It's easy to weave brooms but very very hard to shape and cut very hard stones.

why don't you see how long it takes to weave a broom and then how long it takes to make one of these vases with crude tools (read: bamboo tech). how many mistakes will it take to finally get it perfect and then how long would it take to make them like these? seriously how long would each of these take to make with sticks and a chunk of quartz?

edit on 4-12-2012 by bottleslingguy because: (no reason given)

I think the question is hard to answer for people without a perspective on a lifestyle with a lot of time. In today's Western world, everything is so fast that it can be hard to imagine some people would spend half of their life (or more) working on 1 item/project -- whatever that is.

To answer your question about the broom and why I brought it up, is a small scale time investment compared to stone cutting. In this case, the brooms are made by an 80+ year old man that was also teaching me some rattan weaving. For him to make a broom, he has to do the following:

1. Harvest the grass at the right time of the year (after they have flowered / dried)
2. Clean the grass (get rid of the seeds, this part of the grass will be the sweeping part of the broom)
3. Harvest rattan vines (like a bamboo vine)
4. Strip/clean your rattan to be workable strips
5. Weave away -- if you know how.
6. Put a straight stick in the middle of the handle
7. Weave around the grass/stick stem to make your pole/handle

This is not a process of doing 1 broom at a time, you work on as many as you can that you have the resources for. The process for each broom is hard to say because multiple are worked on at the same time. If I had to guess, the entire process to make 1 broom would be around 5-7 days -- if you are skilled.

As for cutting stone I think it is the same thing, if you have the skill and time... much more time than a broom! Also, I don't have the answer for all of the stonework because I don't have the experience. The copper coring theory so far is very plausible, but if you want to hold on to something, Harte has explained that a coring tube has never been found to his/her knowledge. There are also accounts of people doing this like the ancient egyptyians, but in modern times.

Hopefully this weekend I will get some copper pipe and make some coring tools to first try on limestone, and then get to something more hard.

you should take some time and read that link I provided Hanslune with. there is no doubt to me that the physical evidence proves advanced tooling techniques were used, read Dunn's work and save yourself the trouble of chasing windmills.

reply to post by Philippines


Good luck with the experiment!