Egyptian Stone Vases-The Smoking Gun In The Advanced Technology Debate?

reply to post by mcx1942


Ivan Watkins has a device based on ancient tech that can do any of these stone vases if simply combined with a Potter's wheel. It requires no clever clamping or new metals, just drop the stone in the middle of a wheel and turn slowly whilst the beam is pointed at the rock. Gold guides control the beam and the turning of the wheel creates the geometry.

there are plenty of videos of this stuff on the net. They use lenses rather than Watkins dishes, but the principle is the same. I have no doubt that percussive methods were used once the overall shape was cut, but to get there with these types of stone is best done with a parabolic dish. Lindroth, Watkins and Jordan have all shown the methods, shame the mainstream won't accept the principles.

Will

Originally posted by tri-lobe-1
Hello mcx1942.....
None of the experts on this site make their income from carving stone.....

On that you might be mistaken, as I do cut and crave stone to make income. I use more modern tools, than just a hammer and chisel . I use air tools, diamond saws, drills, laser beams, electric belt sanders, drills, planes and lathes. As for being expert, I am no Micheal Angelo, but I get by.I have to measure and mark reference points, I can't just do it as Micheal Angelo, was suppose to of been able to.

With the tools on hand, in these times, I could make many of these objects, granite is a lot harder to work with and polish, than say marble, but it is the same process.

I kind of get off, on granite plates and bowls, compared to what you buy at Walmart, and plastic is the pits.

Originally posted by OOOOOO

Originally posted by tri-lobe-1
Hello mcx1942.....
None of the experts on this site make their income from carving stone.....

On that you might be mistaken, as I do cut and crave stone to make income. I use more modern tools, than just a hammer and chisel . I use air tools, diamond saws, drills, laser beams, electric belt sanders, drills, planes and lathes. As for being expert, I am no Micheal Angelo, but I get by.I have to measure and mark reference points, I can't just do it as Micheal Angelo, was suppose to of been able to.

With the tools on hand, in these times, I could make many of these objects, granite is a lot harder to work with and polish, than say marble, but it is the same process.

I kind of get off, on granite plates and bowls, compared to what you buy at Walmart, and plastic is the pits.

Glad to have you on board with your experience. I want to try to cut into stone the old fashioned way like the Egyptians supposedly did.

I am a bit skeptical about a copper boring bit being vaguely referenced. I think it's possible, but not just a hollow copper tube cleanly sanded off, and using quartz sand as the abrasive/lubricant. What are your thoughts on coring this stone if you had the luxury of a lot of time to do so? The pictures I have seen so far seem very plausible, though I have to experiment for myself to find out. The copper pipes have me currently confused for hard stone.

Here is an amazing piece of stone work that shows spiral grooves.

In 1996, this tube-drilled piece of granite was on display in the Cairo Museum without any associated identifying information. The photo clearly shows spiral grooves on the visible portions. The grooves can be seen to be of regular depth and spacing, and occur in all of the holes in this piece. These grooves seem to support Petrie's conclusion of "jewelled points" set into bronze tube drills.

Source:www.ancient-wisdom.co.uk...



I wanted to add some excerpts from Petrie's book 'The Pyramids and Temples of Gizeh'.
source:www.touregypt.net...

132 . The principle of rotating the tool was, for sma!ler objects, abandoned in favour of rotating the work; and the lathe appears to have been as familiar an instrument in the fourth dynasty, as it is in modern workshops. The diorite bowls and vases of the Old Kingdom are frequently met with, and show great technical skill. One piece found at Gizeh, No.14, shows that the method employed was true turning, and not any process of grinding, since the bowl has been knocked off of its centring, recentred imperfectly, and the old turning not quite turned out; thus there are two surfaces belonging to different centrings, and meeting in a cusp. Such an appearance could not be produced by any grinding or rubbing process which pressed on the surface. Another detail is shown by fragment No.15; here the curves of the bowl are spherical, and must have therefore been cut by a tool sweeping an arc from a fixed centre while the bowl rotated. This centre or hinging of the tool was in the axis of the lathe for the general surface of the bowl, right up to the edge of it; but as a lip was wanted, the centring of the tool was shifted, but with exactly the same radius of its arc; and a fresh cut made to leave a lip to the bowl. That this was certainly not a chance result of hand-work is shown, not only by the exact circularity of the curves, and their equality, but also by the cusp left where they meet. This has not been at all rounded off as would certainly be the case in hand-work, and it is a clear proof of the rigidly mechanical method of striking the curves.
p 177. Hand graving tools were also used for working on the irregular surfaces of statuary; as may be well seen on the diorite statue of Khafra found at Gizeh, and now at Bulak.

133 . The great pressure needed to force the drills and saws so rapidly through the hard stones is very surprising; probably a load of at least a ton or two was placed on the 4 inch drills cutting in granite. On the granite core, No.7, the spiral of the cut sinks .1 inch in the circumference of 6 inches, or 1 in 60, a rate of ploughing out of the quartz and felspar which is astonishing. Yet these grooves cannot be due to the mere scratching produced in withdrawing the drill as has been suggested, since there would be about 1/10 inch thick of dust between the drill and the core at that part; thus there could be scarcely any pressure applied sideways, and the point of contact of the drill and granite could not travel around the granite however the drill might be turned about. Hence these rapid spiral grooves cannot be ascribed to anything but the descent of the drill into the granite under enormous pressure ; unless, indeed, we suppose a separate rymering tool to have been employed alternately with the drill for enlarging the groove, for which there is no adequate evidence.

134 . That no remains of these saws or tubular drills have yet been found is to be expected, since we have not yet found even waste specimens of work to a tenth of the amount that a single tool would produce ; and the tools, instead of being thrown away like the waste, would be most carefully guarded. Again, even of common masons' chisels, there are probably not a dozen known; and yet they would be far commoner than jewelled tools, and also more likely to be lost, or to be buried with the workman. The great saws and drills of the Pyramid workers would be royal property, and it would, perhaps, cost a man his life if he lost one ; while the bronze would be remelted, and the jewels reset, when the tools became worn, so that no worn out tools would be thrown away.

These early stone vases and other stone work defy mainstream archaeology's stance on the Egyptian timeline.

I am in no way an expert. I just wanted to present information and allow the reader to explore this on their own, making up their own minds on this subject.

reply to post by Philippines
I don't see how this could be done even with a hardened copper, you would need some type of alloy to even get close, I'm sure there were some meteorites with high nickel content around. I doubt of their having any of the metals of the hardness we have now days.
They did have diamonds, I'm sure you could put a diamond into a copper bit, then using copper bearings and some way to turn the stone, in time you could shape it how ever you want to a degree.
The problem I have is with the handles or projections, these are what makes it hard to make such objects even today with modern tools. It would involve much more work with those handles, I can't see why back in those days they would even incorporate those handles into the vase.
Unless it was just to show they could, like you make a vase with no handles and say look at this, another guy says oh yea, look at mine has got handles. So I say how the heck did you do that, he replies, it's for me to know and you to find out.

It is truly amazing how the human mind works and we are able to understand and figure these things out. I think in the case of these vases it's not magic, but a lot of man hours, use of fire and what ever else the gleaned.

During the building of the rail road across the west they bought wooden rail road ties, off any one that could produce them, This was hard work by hand, it was said one ambitious guy could make 60 a day in terms of today's money, he would of been making over $1,000.00 a day. Pretty good for one man, but he would of been a pro, one of the best at doing hand hued logs..

About the pottery wheel in Egypt. The stone vases Petrie found are from the
Early Dynastic Period or even earlier.

According to what I can find, the pottery wheel was not used untill the Old Kingdom Period.
Egyptian Timeline:www.ancientegypt.co.uk...

The potter's wheel, which came into use during the Old Kingdom (27th to 22nd century BCE) was rotated by hand, and it was not until two millennia later that the kick wheel was introduced which at last freed both hands.

source:www.reshafim.org.il...

The potter's wheel was not invented in Egypt until the Old Kingdom. It was only during this era that the potter's wheel made its first appearance and started to be used for commercial purposes.

source:decorativepotterysource.com...

Not until the Old Kingdom do we find the invention of the potter's wheel in Egypt.

source:www.touregypt.net...

Originally posted by mcx1942
Indeed, these are amazing pieces. I believe most can be found at The Petrie Museum of Egyptian Archaeology, which houses an estimated 80,000 objects.

Even on the statues, the detail and symmetry is absolutely mind blowing. Especially if done by hand!

It is just not done by hand. Look at:
youtu.be...

amen

reply to post by Lunica


Yes I have seen that documentary. It is a wonderful look at Egypt. Very thought provoking!

Everyone should watch this. This is not some cheesy, pseudo science documentary. Fact after fact, this documentary compounds the anomalies about the Ancient Egyptians.

At 19:38 in the video is where they discuss the techniques in stone cutting by the Ancient Egyptians. It leads into discussing the stone vases from this thread. If you are interested in these vases and do not have time to watch the entire video, please at least watch this part.

"These ancient sites are full of questions and mysteries that conventional archaeology can not answer. And anyone who steps away from the usual explanations, is dismissed as a crank. But the questions remain.

Because rock carving can not be accurately dated, there are no definitive answers. If we want to solve these mysteries we need to keep an open mind."

quote from the video at 50:21.

Here is the embedded video:

Originally posted by OOOOOO
reply to post by Philippines

 

I don't see how this could be done even with a hardened copper, you would need some type of alloy to even get close, I'm sure there were some meteorites with high nickel content around. I doubt of their having any of the metals of the hardness we have now days.
They did have diamonds, I'm sure you could put a diamond into a copper bit, then using copper bearings and some way to turn the stone, in time you could shape it how ever you want to a degree.
The problem I have is with the handles or projections, these are what makes it hard to make such objects even today with modern tools. It would involve much more work with those handles, I can't see why back in those days they would even incorporate those handles into the vase.
Unless it was just to show they could, like you make a vase with no handles and say look at this, another guy says oh yea, look at mine has got handles. So I say how the heck did you do that, he replies, it's for me to know and you to find out.

It is truly amazing how the human mind works and we are able to understand and figure these things out. I think in the case of these vases it's not magic, but a lot of man hours, use of fire and what ever else the gleaned.

During the building of the rail road across the west they bought wooden rail road ties, off any one that could produce them, This was hard work by hand, it was said one ambitious guy could make 60 a day in terms of today's money, he would of been making over $1,000.00 a day. Pretty good for one man, but he would of been a pro, one of the best at doing hand hued logs..

Yeah I agree, I have been thinking about this a lot because it could be a good hobby. The limstone should be plausible to work with copper and some sand/water slurry mix - because limestone is not hard and easy to cut, especially with water.

For cutting into a HARD river stone (some are hard enough to be used as an anvil by blacksmiths), I think I would have to start the bore with a short copper tube so it will not fold/crush. Once I get the hole scored (if the copper / abrasive works), then I would switch to a longer copper tube for coring. I still have not seen a reference for how heavy the top weights should be on the coring rod, but I don't think too heavy or it may risk compromising the copper coring tube -- something that people in AE would NOT want to ruin.

Perhaps the copper tubes were tipped with diamonds or other hard stones to help the cutting. I am not too surprised that these tools have not been recovered if they contains jewels, and also metals (and stone) in that time were constantly being recycled as time went on.

Right now I'm looking from a perspective of plausibility. I am not concerned with the amount of time it takes because people had lots of time then, and also where I live now. If it takes 6 months or more to make a stone jar, that's fine.

Originally posted by Philippines
I am a bit skeptical about a copper boring bit being vaguely referenced. I think it's possible, but not just a hollow copper tube cleanly sanded off, and using quartz sand as the abrasive/lubricant. What are your thoughts on coring this stone if you had the luxury of a lot of time to do so? The pictures I have seen so far seem very plausible, though I have to experiment for myself to find out. The copper pipes have me currently confused for hard stone.

On "Ancient Aliens," Christopher Dunn was shown sawing a core out of a piece of granite with a copper tube so it has been shown to be possible, even on that ridiculous show.
I believe there is in this thread picv or links to pics of some of these vessels after they had been sawn in half. You can see the broken off end of the core that was broken out of the hole.

Also in this thread (IIRC) there's a link to an old report of an investigation into sawing granite with copper and sand that includes information about rates they accomplished.

If you were really curious, you would already know it's been proven by modern researchers, and those guys that did it weren't spring chickens.

That, along with the several granite (and other stone) cores that have been found in Egypt, each having the tell-tale spiral grooving of a tube saw, pretty much wraps it up, whatever you might wish to believe to the contrary.

Petrie's speculation concerning jewel tips could be right, as well as what was said about possible meteoric iron,. But what's been shown is that no such extras were needed, it would just take more time without them.

Harte

Originally posted by bottleslingguy

Originally posted by Hanslune
So if you refuse to believe that the AE could do this work - where is the infrastructure and development of the advanced machinery you feel is needed to do this type of designs? You'll need to find that technology to be believed.

How the AE made granite vases

Question: Are all AE vases 'perfect"? If they had high technology they should be - are they?

edit on 29/11/12 by Hanslune because: (no reason given)

what makes you an authority on AE technology? Maybe they don't believe in leaving their garbage lying around? infrastructure!

what did you have in mind? remember now we're talking about Type I and II civilizations, are you expecting rusty old steam engines?

I know how to read. Civilizations leave large amounts of evidence of their existence, they are easy to spot. A civ making this amount of a luxury item would leave a massive archaeological footprint - and they do, they are called the AE

Originally posted by cookiemonster32
Tell me this if the AE were so advanced and turned out awesome pottery without assistance from an advanced culture how is it that the quality of goods has declined and they went backwards even the later pyramids were mere shadows of the older ones and today we are buying crappy cheap plastic plates and bowls from china?

Because their resources allocations changed and during the intermediate periods (civil wars) the industries were destroyed, the master craftmen killed or driven away

They start from mastabas to Pyramids then to rock cut tombs....when was the last time someone built a cathedral larger and grander than St Peter's?

Just some more fat for the fire

For those interested in AE stone vessels I can strongly recommend the link below

Stone vessels by dorothea Arnold

This article is by one of experts in this field



Stone vessels were manufactured specifically for certain Pharaohs and in some cases with their names inscribed on them



Example of such



Needless to say if stone vessels were being made to order and including the names of Pharaohs - that would tend to point in the direction of them making them....

I apologize for not answering all question placed in this thread. I will hopefully be able to return tomorrow but at the moment I'm pressed for time, so I'll leave only this short message tonight

Originally posted by Harte

Originally posted by Philippines
I am a bit skeptical about a copper boring bit being vaguely referenced. I think it's possible, but not just a hollow copper tube cleanly sanded off, and using quartz sand as the abrasive/lubricant. What are your thoughts on coring this stone if you had the luxury of a lot of time to do so? The pictures I have seen so far seem very plausible, though I have to experiment for myself to find out. The copper pipes have me currently confused for hard stone.

On "Ancient Aliens," Christopher Dunn was shown sawing a core out of a piece of granite with a copper tube so it has been shown to be possible, even on that ridiculous show.
I believe there is in this thread picv or links to pics of some of these vessels after they had been sawn in half. You can see the broken off end of the core that was broken out of the hole.

Also in this thread (IIRC) there's a link to an old report of an investigation into sawing granite with copper and sand that includes information about rates they accomplished.

If you were really curious, you would already know it's been proven by modern researchers, and those guys that did it weren't spring chickens.

That, along with the several granite (and other stone) cores that have been found in Egypt, each having the tell-tale spiral grooving of a tube saw, pretty much wraps it up, whatever you might wish to believe to the contrary.

Petrie's speculation concerning jewel tips could be right, as well as what was said about possible meteoric iron,. But what's been shown is that no such extras were needed, it would just take more time without them.

Harte

Thanks for the info. I'm not doubting it is possible -- given a lot of time =)

I did read in a link from Hanslune that it was reproduced on a small scale, so I guess the point I'm at now is to try it myself!

The part I'm not sure about is how they carved and formed the outside of the jar. Chisels and then a lathe/turning wheel to smoothen the outside?

No lathe or wheel is known to have been in use at the time.

No, I'm afraid you're in for it if you want to do it "the old-fashioned way."

You will need to shape the outside with a small pounder, then smooth it with rubbing stones. I'd suggest doing the outside first, as pounding on it after the inside is done could be hard on your inventory!

Harte

Originally posted by Harte
No lathe or wheel is known to have been in use at the time.

No, I'm afraid you're in for it if you want to do it "the old-fashioned way."

You will need to shape the outside with a small pounder, then smooth it with rubbing stones. I'd suggest doing the outside first, as pounding on it after the inside is done could be hard on your inventory!

Harte

Mmmmmk... So I will have to find the right rock, or make a plate lol.

Do you know of any images of the copper tubing used before? I am googling around with no luck. I am curious if they rolled copper sheets to form a tube, or the tube was cast from molten copper.

Thanks for all your info!

reply to post by Hanslune

you were wondering why the objects were not perfect if they were built by AA, that implies you know more about AA technology than you are admitting. Why would you expect them to be perfect?

Originally posted by Philippines

Originally posted by Harte
No lathe or wheel is known to have been in use at the time.

No, I'm afraid you're in for it if you want to do it "the old-fashioned way."

You will need to shape the outside with a small pounder, then smooth it with rubbing stones. I'd suggest doing the outside first, as pounding on it after the inside is done could be hard on your inventory!

Harte

Mmmmmk... So I will have to find the right rock, or make a plate lol.

Do you know of any images of the copper tubing used before? I am googling around with no luck. I am curious if they rolled copper sheets to form a tube, or the tube was cast from molten copper.

Thanks for all your info!

AFAIK, no tube saws have ever been found, which makes sense, really.

That is, copper is still valuable today, and even once they started making bronze, copper is required for that.

Harte

Originally posted by mcx1942
Thank you all for replying. I enjoy reading all the responses.

I believe the Egyptian's had the skill to do all this, I just think we have the timeline all wrong. I am in no way an expert. I just wanted to present the theories presented by Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie.

I want to add this little video, I understand how controversial John Anthony West is but I feel his theories have weight behind them.

edit on 11/29/2012 by mcx1942 because: addition

edit on 11/29/2012 by mcx1942 because: ditto

West's and Dunn's work is amongst the best i've ever laid my eyes on in this life. I just can't say enough about their work. I want to THANK you for posting this video! I've seen a bunch of his (West's) videos and this one is one of the best in my opinion. It is post's like this and supporters of West and Dunn (sounds like a country duo
is broccoli for the mind.

Incredible. Mainstream education truly needs to wake up and smell the roses oops, I mean smell the advanced stone work of Egyptian antiquity with the nostrils not of scentless humans but truly bloodhounds of great intellectuals that actually USE their mental facilities to a very high degree of thought and correct intuition

Posting cool material about Dunn and West is to me what makes ATS truly one of the best web sites on the net. But of course the keepers of the old school way of thinking that the use of the PRIMITIVE tools used by the ancient egyptians is the way it really is, hurts the progress of learning. No wonder kids that go to school have no to little inspiration on subjects of such importance.

reply to post by mcx1942


The answer to this little mystery is simplicity itself. First, you have to get past the arrogance of modern man who thinks the sun shines out of his computer's a***, and that maths is the language of the gods. Wrong. These are the tools or I should say, crutches, for people who minds have degenerated so that they can no longer think in the sophisticated and creative ways they once could. Thus Easter Island statues, Stonehenge, the pyramids, and the stone vases puzzle modern scientists, archaeologists, engineers etc., because they have not the problem solving imagination to see how to create these things without the use of heavy machinery.