The folly of atheism

Originally posted by SambhavaamiYugeYuge

Originally posted by ConspiracyNutjob
If you believe that mere 'study' or 'reading' the bible or 'hearing' the words of Jesus is what converts someone into becoming a christian then you are sorely mistaken. We do not just blindly follow the teachings.

A sincere person will investigate the authenticity of the claims made within the new testament. Jesus was the verification of the old testament scriptures and his teachings are compiled within the new testament.

When Paul preached to the Berean's about the identity of Jesus, they studied the old testament scriptures to identify if Jesus was the Christ. When they discovered that Jesus was truly the Christ they repented of their sins, were baptised and received the gift of the holy spirit.

Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true. (Acts 17:11)


Faith is not obtained by an individual, it is a gift from God.

“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast” (Ephesians 2:8-9)

This gift is not tangible, in the same way that love is not tangible. It is present but something that can never be physically grasped, and it cannot be grasped by the mind of a man that is not sincere.

For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate." (1 Corinthians 1:19)

It seems we are vibrating in two entirely different frequencies which do not resonate with each other. I respect your strong faith and your purity at heart (I hope

) in following your religion. Unfortunately or fortunately I do not possess the capability to believe without concrete proof or logic and reasoning.

So I guess I will have to wait longer to get rational answers to my questions. Best of luck, my dear friend.

And yet you have no concrete proof that God does not exist which requires a faith in itself. To believe that we have been randomly created through some kind of accident and placed in such a wonderful universe defies logic. What is rational about your position?

Originally posted by ConspiracyNutjob
And yet you have no concrete proof that God does not exist which requires a faith in itself. To believe that we have been randomly created through some kind of accident and placed in such a wonderful universe defies logic. What is rational about your position?

If you had read my first post in this thread, you'd have known that I had explicitly mentioned that I am not an atheist. I do believe in God. But my concept of God is very different from what the religions propagate. My spiritual quest and thinking has given me the idea (be it right or wrong) that God is not different from the universe, which includes everything. God is whatever there was, is and will be. God is the cosmic consciousness from which all entities derive at some level or the other. God is much above the selfish egos and emotions of human beings. etc. etc.... This is too huge a topic to go into, right now.

My problem is with religion. I cant see how God can behave like a human being, judging people, getting angry, being pleased if praised (or by offerings), etc. The Gods of various religions are just beings who have some super powers with equally super sized egos. He also orders his followers to kill those who do not believe in him. Really?

I repeat the question that I had asked in one of my previous posts.
Why do you think God would send only one man to a specific location on earth (that too when communication between parts of the world was very limited) to save the whole world and expect other people in far away places to believe in this for the rest of eternity? Wouldn't it have been more easier and (less violent and more merciful) to just send many saviors or the same savior to different parts of the world at different periods to save humanity in a proper way?

Isn't the hidden agenda of the writers of these books clearly evident from this? I mean, just use common sense for a minute. Would God, even if He is an entity that thinks and acts like a human, do such things just to make people believe in him? It is very clear (to me at least) that these religions were possibly started off due to the superstition and ignorance of some ancient people and later, organized into the institutions that they are today, by power hungry people/groups to control the masses for their own personal benefits.

Fine... just tell me only one thing. What appeals to your sense and sensibility when the holy Bible claims that Jesus is God (or son of God) while you do not accept that Prophet Mohammed is a messenger of God and Allah is the only God, which is claimed by the holy Koran. Both are just claims by a book each with no real evidence. So the only difference is that you were born into one and not the other, right mate?

Originally posted by SambhavaamiYugeYuge

Originally posted by ConspiracyNutjob
And yet you have no concrete proof that God does not exist which requires a faith in itself. To believe that we have been randomly created through some kind of accident and placed in such a wonderful universe defies logic. What is rational about your position?

If you had read my first post in this thread, you'd have known that I had explicitly mentioned that I am not an atheist. I do believe in God. But my concept of God is very different from what the religions propagate. My spiritual quest and thinking has given me the idea (be it right or wrong) that God is not different from the universe, which includes everything. God is whatever there was, is and will be. God is the cosmic consciousness from which all entities derive at some level or the other. God is much above the selfish egos and emotions of human beings. etc. etc.... This is too huge a topic to go into, right now.

My problem is with religion. I cant see how God can behave like a human being, judging people, getting angry, being pleased if praised (or by offerings), etc. The Gods of various religions are just beings who have some super powers with equally super sized egos. He also orders his followers to kill those who do not believe in him. Really?

I repeat the question that I had asked in one of my previous posts.
Why do you think God would send only one man to a specific location on earth (that too when communication between parts of the world was very limited) to save the whole world and expect other people in far away places to believe in this for the rest of eternity? Wouldn't it have been more easier and (less violent and more merciful) to just send many saviors or the same savior to different parts of the world at different periods to save humanity in a proper way?

Isn't the hidden agenda of the writers of these books clearly evident from this? I mean, just use common sense for a minute. Would God, even if He is an entity that thinks and acts like a human, do such things just to make people believe in him? It is very clear (to me at least) that these religions were possibly started off due to the superstition and ignorance of some ancient people and later, organized into the institutions that they are today, by power hungry people/groups to control the masses for their own personal benefits.

Fine... just tell me only one thing. What appeals to your sense and sensibility when the holy Bible claims that Jesus is God (or son of God) while you do not accept that Prophet Mohammed is a messenger of God and Allah is the only God, which is claimed by the holy Koran. Both are just claims by a book each with no real evidence. So the only difference is that you were born into one and not the other, right mate?

edit on 1/12/2012 by SambhavaamiYugeYuge because: (no reason given)

Ahhh... So you believe in your own individual God? Maybe you are just worshipping your own ideas? Meanwhile you want me to provide concrete proof of my beliefs and yet you will not be able to provide concrete proof for your own?

To answer your question why God would send Jesus to one specific location is quite simple: Because he can.

God chose the descendants of Abraham to be his people. Jesus preached to the Jews and then his followers preached to both Jews and Gentiles.



People that have not heard of Jesus or his teachings will be judged far more leniently than those that are familiar with Christ and his teachings.

Luke 12:47-48

"That servant who knows his master's will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked."


The prophet Mohammed never claimed to be the Son of God while Jesus did. Jesus was without sin while Mohammed lived a very unwholesome life.

The teachings in the Qu'ran (written 600 years after the bible) are a corruption of the original scriptures. Mohammed himself claims that his writings were influenced by an angel/s.


Look at this warning from Paul 600 years prior to Mohammed allegedly listening to angels:

But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! (Galatians 1:8)

Originally posted by ConspiracyNutjob
Ahhh... So you believe in your own individual God? Maybe you are just worshipping your own ideas? Meanwhile you want me to provide concrete proof of my beliefs and yet you will not be able to provide concrete proof for your own?

To answer your question why God would send Jesus to one specific location is quite simple: Because he can.

God chose the descendants of Abraham to be his people. Jesus preached to the Jews and then his followers preached to both Jews and Gentiles.

People that have not heard of Jesus or his teachings will be judged far more leniently than those that are familiar with Christ and his teachings.

Luke 12:47-48

"That servant who knows his master's will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked."

The prophet Mohammed never claimed to be the Son of God while Jesus did. Jesus was without sin while Mohammed lived a very unwholesome life.

The teachings in the Qu'ran (written 600 years after the bible) are a corruption of the original scriptures. Mohammed himself claims that his writings were influenced by an angel/s.


Look at this warning from Paul 600 years prior to Mohammed allegedly listening to angels:

But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! (Galatians 1:8)

Oh!!! "Individual God? Worshiping own ideas?" Is that what you understood from my comments. Either my communication skills in English are very weak (possible, as English is not my first language) or you are so prejudiced or close minded.

I am neither propagating any religion nor am I worshiping an individual God. I was only contemplating on an idea of God conceivable in my puny intellect. Anyway, I guess a religious brain cannot comprehend such ideologies. So let's leave it at that.

BTW... I am not saying having strong faith is a bad thing. It is good as long as it stays within the individual. Moreover an individual with no thirst for the truth/knowledge can be very happy with it. The problem arises when one man tries to impose his faith on the other. OK enough said already.

Bye and good luck, my friend,

reply to post by ConspiracyNutjob


Indeed. Irrationality at one end of a spectrum implies irrationality at the other end as well, as extremes are often too narrow to be entirely correct. When an extreme crosses another extreme, they are far too self-concerned to reach a balance, and that is where we have a problem.

reply to post by SambhavaamiYugeYuge


Mohammad was a murderer and thief, liar , fornicator and there was not anything in his lifes history that calls him holy . The Arabs do not refute those claims . He and Jesus do not compare in any way .

Originally posted by SimonPeter
reply to post by SambhavaamiYugeYuge

 

Mohammad was a murderer and thief, liar , fornicator and there was not anything in his lifes history that calls him holy . The Arabs do not refute those claims . He and Jesus do not compare in any way .

Debate about Mohammed / Jesus was not my point. What I intended should be clear if you read my previous posts in this thread.

Originally posted by SambhavaamiYugeYuge

Oh!!! "Individual God? Worshiping own ideas?" Is that what you understood from my comments. Either my communication skills in English are very weak (possible, as English is not my first language) or you are so prejudiced or close minded.

I am neither propagating any religion nor am I worshiping an individual God. I was only contemplating on an idea of God conceivable in my puny intellect. Anyway, I guess a religious brain cannot comprehend such ideologies. So let's leave it at that.

BTW... I am not saying having strong faith is a bad thing. It is good as long as it stays within the individual. Moreover an individual with no thirst for the truth/knowledge can be very happy with it. The problem arises when one man tries to impose his faith on the other. OK enough said already.

Bye and good luck, my friend,

I think you are right on point. And not dragging personal emotions and insults into a debate.

I understand you perfectly.

How an atheist behaves..

Foolish the one who denies God in his heart.

How does an atheist behave?

Originally posted by Angle
How an atheist behaves..

Foolish the one who denies God in his heart.

How does an atheist behave?

As an individual.

Life has meant so much more to me since I accepted I am atheist.

Its all on ME. There are no excuses.

reply to post by Annee


Annee, without disrespect or confrontation, I wish to ask you a question.

Have you ever considered deism? It just seems incredible that someone can look up at the night sky, at all the beautiful light, at the red leaves in fall, at the perfect flakes in winter, at the vivid flowers and at all the natural scenes in life that just take our breath away, the stuff that makes us feel magical, and say that there is no order, no intelligence, no kind of divinity to be found in the universe.

I think that if chaos is our father, and chance is our mother, we would have been aborted. And if we weren't, we would have died as an infant species. Why, then, do we survive against all odds? Why do we win the struggle against all things ending, if the universe is ruled by chance and random events?

Have you looked into deism at all?

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by Annee

 

Annee, without disrespect or confrontation, I wish to ask you a question.

Have you ever considered deism?

First: I was raised Christian and went on about a 60 year quest searching for God. To all those believers who think I don't know what faith to believe is.

Second: Atheism means only one thing. Lack of belief in a god/deity. It does not mean NO BELIEF.

Third: Atheism is NOT anti-god. It is lack of belief. AND - - any truly honest atheist will also claim agnostic (read meaning: "God can not be proven or dis-proven"). Atheism just shows which way you lean from agnostic.

However, neither dictionaries nor common usage reflect Huxley's intent in coining the term. His original formulation of the concept goes as follows: Agnosticism is not a creed but a method, the essence of which lies in the vigorous application of a single principle. Positively the principle may be expressed as, in matters of the intellect, follow your reason as far as it can carry you without other considerations. And negatively, in matters of the intellect, do not pretend the conclusions are certain that are not demonstrated or demonstrable. It is wrong for a man to say he is certain of the objective truth of a proposition unless he can produce evidence which logically justifies that certainty. atheists.org...

Fourth: An atheist is an individual. What that individual beliefs would be his/her own philosophy: "atheist philosophy".

Fifth: Yes there are what are called "Hard Atheists" - - those that believe you live/die and nothing else. There are also: "Spiritual Atheists" www.spiritualatheism.com...

Sixth: DEISM. I have beliefs similar - - only without a God (in a religious sense). I believe everything is energy. That energy evolved into consciousness. That energy thought consciousness creates. (getting into more detail on this would derail the thread IMO).

For me it is an evolution of natural science. - - creation yes - - not Creation. Can it be proven? Science is limited to repetitive testing of what is known. Science can not test what it does not know. But science is also always evolving with new discoveries. I think its stupid to claim something does not exist because it can't be proven by science.

reply to post by Annee


There is a thread called "God is Not a Person" that I think you might enjoy. I'm not sure if you've found it or not. Otherwise, I agree with your general beliefs. Thank you for your answers.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by Annee

 

There is a thread called "God is Not a Person" that I think you might enjoy. I'm not sure if you've found it or not. Otherwise, I agree with your general beliefs. Thank you for your answers.

Thank you. Saw the thread - - haven't ventured there yet.

I always enjoy your manner of debating and viewpoints.

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by Angle
How an atheist behaves..

Foolish the one who denies God in his heart.

How does an atheist behave?

As an individual.

Life has meant so much more to me since I accepted I am atheist.

Its all on ME. There are no excuses.

I'm not sure I understand how a person who believes in God is liable to make excuses for themselves according to this verse:

John 15:22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin. Now, however, they have no excuse for their sin.

Soo....yeah, I was wondering how you, as an individual, could have read this verse and came to insinuate that believers are to make excuses for themselves, especially since we are judged according to our deeds.

reply to post by godlover25

Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm under the impression that what the next guy thinks is no one's #ing business.

And if you're a "Godlover" you'd know that you're not to judge the next guy because then you'll be judged.

HYPOCRITE.

Originally posted by Wonders

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by Angle
How an atheist behaves..

Foolish the one who denies God in his heart.

How does an atheist behave?

As an individual.

Life has meant so much more to me since I accepted I am atheist.

Its all on ME. There are no excuses.

I'm not sure I understand how a person who believes in God is liable to make excuses for themselves according to this verse:

John 15:22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin. Now, however, they have no excuse for their sin.

Soo....yeah, I was wondering how you, as an individual, could have read this verse and came to insinuate that believers are to make excuses for themselves, especially since we are judged according to our deeds.

I'm not really interested in any verses.

Actions speak louder then words.

reply to post by Wonders


I will tell you . Man is born into sin . He is going to sin . The only real sin is not repenting of your sin and following Jesus . Do you prefer the darkness of sin and all that it brings or do you prefer what is right and holy . God wants those who seek the kingdom of heaven . Jesus was offered for that reason . You can't keep your nose clean for 30 minutes on this earth because we live in an increasingly sinful world . People find what they seek in most every situation . What do you seek???

reply to post by SimonPeter


I don't know how you can get out of bed everyday with that attitude. You must harbor such hate for humanity to actually believe and preach that our very nature is based in sin. We can't even keep our noses clean for 30 minutes in this cesspool of a world, huh?

It's really kinda humorous, because now I expect you to spout off something about God's love, but I sure don't see it in his followers or in his books, save a few red lines.

Originally posted by PrplHrt
reply to post by godlover25

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm under the impression that what the next guy thinks is no one's #ing business.

And if you're a "Godlover" you'd know that you're not to judge the next guy because then you'll be judged.

HYPOCRITE.

Interesting that you have judged godlover25 to be a hypocrite.