Is the USA Now Under God's Judgement?

reply to post by Pervius

GODS JUDGEMENT? I do not see any Judgement at all. In fact one could say that any GOD would be suffering from a LACK OF JUDGEMENT.

There has not been any evidence that any GOD is watching over ANYTHING! As much as you might wish something to be true will not make it so.

Split Infinity

Originally posted by Hydroman

Originally posted by MarkJS
They all coincide.... and are told from different perspectives. Just like, for example, when people see a house on fire... Some focus on one aspect, the other on a different. But the second person's perspectives, although they may be different, does not nullify the validity of the first.

Except none of them are inspired by god who gives them the words to say. Now, if god gave them the words to say, it should all be coherent. Go and put them together then write one complete story using all four of them.

I should also say that none of the authors of the gospels (except for maybe John..debatable) were witnesses to the resurrection.

Originally posted by MarkJS
If you're still interested in a proof that a Jesus actually existed and walked around this earth...

Not worried about him walking this earth, he very well may have. Was he god? That's the issue.

But why did He get the whole calendar system to revolve around Him? That doesn't pique your curiosity and interest?

I should also say that none of the authors of the gospels (except for maybe John..debatable) were witnesses to the resurrection..

The way that it works- in what you may call proof- from a biblical perspective... is that in the Old Testament days... there were hints and clues of "A coming messiah". This messiah had to be from the tribe of Joseph, he had to be called a Nazarene, he had to be born of a virgin, he had to be Egyptian (called out of Egypt)...and a host of other requirements. These were accumulated in the span of several thousand years. Jesus came by and fulfilled All Of Them. This is the biblical proof that shows Jesus to be who he is... God. Because only God can do this.

Originally posted by Hydroman

How do you know what they experienced wasn't true? Well maybe not everyone's, there's a lot of liars out there... but No-one's?

That's exactly right, and that's why it can't count as proof.

You can believe what you want... which is what you are not allowing others the freedom to do... but just because You don't see/accept it as proof... that doesn't automatically invalidate Their experiences or beliefs.

Originally posted by MarkJS

Then maybe this reply is God's way of revealing Himself to you. Go to a church (association/network) called the Assembly of God... in your area. There, you will experience Him.

I was raised in a full gospel church, which is pretty much the same as Assembly of God. But now that you've said that, do you mean to say that I can't experience him in a baptist or methodist church? What about Pentecostal?

not so much... Try the Assembly of God .... you will see a difference.

Originally posted by MarkJS
I looked at the site. I don't know... it looks like the author of this site was looking for exact word matches.... Why would that be important? Like mentioned, the gospels are the same thing, but from different perspectives. It's just the human thing to do. I mean, if all four gospels were exactly the same in wording, we could then shed three of them without any trouble, right?

You fail to understand what I'm saying. I'm not looking for same wording.

First, you said that they wrote what god told them to write...did you not?

That being the case, the accounts are different. Many things do NOT match. For example, who was at the tomb when, how many angels, etc. Read them all side by side and you will see. There is one instance where Mary Magdalene runs off and tells the others about what happened, and another account where she says nothing to anyone. Which is it? There are several things like this.

Originally posted by MarkJS
But why did He get the whole calendar system to revolve around Him? That doesn't pique your curiosity and interest?

Here's why:

The Anno Domini dating system was devised in 525 by Dionysius Exiguus to enumerate the years in his Easter table. His system was to replace the Diocletian era that had been used in an old Easter table because he did not wish to continue the memory of a tyrant who persecuted Christians.[16] The last year of the old table, Diocletian 247, was immediately followed by the first year of his table, AD 532. When he devised his table, Julian calendar years were identified by naming the consuls who held office that year—he himself stated that the "present year" was "the consulship of Probus Junior", which was 525 years "since the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ".[17] Thus Dionysius implied that Jesus' Incarnation occurred 525 years earlier, without stating the specific year during which his birth or conception occurred.

Originally posted by MarkJS
The way that it works- in what you may call proof- from a biblical perspective... is that in the Old Testament days... there were hints and clues of "A coming messiah". This messiah had to be from the tribe of Joseph, he had to be called a Nazarene, he had to be born of a virgin, he had to be Egyptian (called out of Egypt)...and a host of other requirements. These were accumulated in the span of several thousand years. Jesus came by and fulfilled All Of Them. This is the biblical proof that shows Jesus to be who he is... God. Because only God can do this.

Here's why Jews say Jesus is NOT the messiah.

www.aish.com...

Originally posted by MarkJS
You can believe what you want... which is what you are not allowing others the freedom to do... but just because You don't see/accept it as proof... that doesn't automatically invalidate Their experiences or beliefs.

Hold on a second....did I stop you from believing something? Did I make other people quit their beliefs? My kids sometimes go to church with my parents. I don't stop them. You are so wrong.

Again, personal experience cannot be counted as proof. It has to be something that is repeatably demonstrable to everyone, without error. That's proof. Otherwise, everyone who has an experience with their own kind of god has proof of their god's existence.

I'm not here to make you quit your beliefs. I'm here to discuss beliefs.

Originally posted by MarkJS
not so much... Try the Assembly of God .... you will see a difference.

I've been to the Assembly of God, many times. It's the same as I was raised.

reply to post by MarkJS

OR...by your own reasoning. Jesus could have studied the Bible and then set up his actions and what he stated to fill this supposed prophesy.

The U.S. is Mankind's LAST, BEST AND GREATEST HOPE. I have been all over the World and no matter where I go...there is NOTHING that equals the Peace and Security and Freedom I feel when I come home to the United States.

There are some VERY PROGRESSIVE EUROPEAN COUNTRIES...still one gets the feeling that they are not truly Free. I know that many consider Freedom an ILLUSION. It is not. Freedom will always be a reality in the U.S. as long as ANYONE and EVERY CITIZEN has the RIGHT to run for Office as well as VOTE in those they support.

I disagree that One Person cannot make a difference. The ONLY thing that will render a person Hopeless is their inability to act. If you do not like the direction the Country is going then DO SOMETHING! It is YOUR RIGHT!

Europe is still to a great degree stuck in a Mentality of Royalty or a Feudal Mentality. In the U.S. the CUSTOMER IS ALWAYS RIGHT. In Europe the mentality is that...IT IS A PRIVILEGE FOR A CUSTOMER TO BE ALLOWED THE SERVICES PROVIDED BY THE PATRON. No where is this experience to such a vast degree than in FRANCE. I have waited 20 Minutes before walking out of a Street Side Coffee Shop much to the chagrin and nasty looks given to me by both the staff and any manager or ownership. I REFUSE to wait longer than 20 Minutes just to get something to drink!

I am aware of the different way that Europeans view how they dine and the Time involved...however when I need to be somewhere in 30 Minutes and I tell the waiter this and unlike the U.S...all waiters in France have no incentive to be a good waiter as their tip is BUILT INTO THE BILL. Thus a waiter could care less if you have a good dining or drinking experience. I WILL NOT TOLERATE THIS! So I walk out. The staff actually vilifies ME as wasting THEIR TIME! LOL! This is just part of the European problem of a CLASS STRUGGLE as well as employees being paid for something they did not earn.

We in the U.S. have the #1 In the WORLD...Most Productive WORKFORCE! The Japanese know this as more Japanese Cars are made in the U.S. than are made in Japan. In Japan a worker is almost a SLAVE to their employer and they work very long hours as we do in the U.S. But still the U.S. Worker CHOOSES to work these long hours to make money and is not bound by some Ancient Feudal System and Mentality as are the Japanese that makes them feel that their Employer is somehow like a DUKE or BARON. Employees in the U.S. do not have the Mentality that just because they are being paid this means those that pay them are of any greater WORTH or STATUS GREATER than they are. This Mentality is prevalent though out Europe as far as SOCIAL STATUS and is so in the Business World as far as Asia.

The American Worker believes their position in a Company is MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE as far as Profits and Loss. Americans in general are not afraid of Authority and I have witnessed peoples fear of Authority all over the World...even in the most Progressive of European Nations. Split Infinity

Originally posted by Hydroman

Originally posted by MarkJS
I looked at the site. I don't know... it looks like the author of this site was looking for exact word matches.... Why would that be important? Like mentioned, the gospels are the same thing, but from different perspectives. It's just the human thing to do. I mean, if all four gospels were exactly the same in wording, we could then shed three of them without any trouble, right?

You fail to understand what I'm saying. I'm not looking for same wording.

First, you said that they wrote what god told them to write...did you not?

That being the case, the accounts are different. Many things do NOT match. For example, who was at the tomb when, how many angels, etc. Read them all side by side and you will see. There is one instance where Mary Magdalene runs off and tells the others about what happened, and another account where she says nothing to anyone. Which is it? There are several things like this.

I see what you are saying.... the section: "What did the women do?"... That can be explained by the different perspectives. At first the women said nothing from being numb after the experience of seeing their Master's body being taken (their words).. and seeing angels... Well, I guessed they got a little shook up. I would be too. They said nothing... Then later, blurted out what happened. Makes sense to me.

Don't let these little apparent contradictions keep you from God. There's a lot at stake here. My recommendation is not to let what seems like huge problems keep you from your eternal salvation. The longer you put off being close to Jesus, the more rewards you are missing from your eternal house. If I were you, I would get right on it... that being the most important thing.

You need to go and work it out. Go to an Assembly of God, like I mentioned... then U2U me later, if you would like

Originally posted by MarkJS
... That can be explained by the different perspectives. At first the women said nothing from being numb after the experience of seeing their Master's body being taken (their words).. and seeing angels... Well, I guessed they got a little shook up. I would be too. They said nothing... Then later, blurted out what happened. Makes sense to me.

Don't let these little apparent contradictions keep you from God. There's a lot at stake here. My recommendation is not to let what seems like huge problems from your eternal salvation. You need to go and work it out. Go to an Assembly of God, like I mentioned... then U2U me later, if you would like.

Ok, so from what I gather from you is that these stories were written by man, and god DID NOT give them the words to write. They just wrote their own experiences. That being said, is the whole bible like that, or just the gospels? Is the whole bible written by man and their experiences, without god sitting at their side telling them what to write? Now, go and read the four accounts, because I'm sure you haven't sat down and done it yet. Then tell me that god told them to write contradictory information.

When you finally say that god didn't tell them what to write, then you see that it was all written by man's own hand. The whole bible was. And we know that man is fallible. So were those who translated. And so are those who preach it today. Why should we trust any of it?

reply to post by Hydroman

Here's why:
The Anno Domini dating system was devised in 525 by Dionysius Exiguus to enumerate the years in his Easter table. His system was to replace the Diocletian era that had been used in an old Easter table because he did not wish to continue the memory of a tyrant who persecuted Christians.[16] The last year of the old table, Diocletian 247, was immediately followed by the first year of his table, AD 532. When he devised his table, Julian calendar years were identified by naming the consuls who held office that year—he himself stated that the "present year" was "the consulship of Probus Junior", which was 525 years "since the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ".[17] Thus Dionysius implied that Jesus' Incarnation occurred 525 years earlier, without stating the specific year during which his birth or conception occurred.

Right. This was not done in a vacuum, however. It was approved by the Roman government to be adopted for the then known-world.... Now the entire world uses the same system.

Originally posted by Hydroman

Originally posted by MarkJS
... That can be explained by the different perspectives. At first the women said nothing from being numb after the experience of seeing their Master's body being taken (their words).. and seeing angels... Well, I guessed they got a little shook up. I would be too. They said nothing... Then later, blurted out what happened. Makes sense to me.

Don't let these little apparent contradictions keep you from God. There's a lot at stake here. My recommendation is not to let what seems like huge problems from your eternal salvation. You need to go and work it out. Go to an Assembly of God, like I mentioned... then U2U me later, if you would like.

Ok, so from what I gather from you is that these stories were written by man, and god DID NOT give them the words to write. They just wrote their own experiences. That being said, is the whole bible like that, or just the gospels? Is the whole bible written by man and their experiences, without god sitting at their side telling them what to write? Now, go and read the four accounts, because I'm sure you haven't sat down and done it yet. Then tell me that god told them to write contradictory information.

When you finally say that god didn't tell them what to write, then you see that it was all written by man's own hand. The whole bible was. And we know that man is fallible. So were those who translated. And so are those who preach it today. Why should we trust any of it?

True, they wrote from their own experiences. But like I said.. the second person's perspective does not invalidate the perspective of the first. God uses people. People are all different..and not robots. Do you think that Christians should all be robotic?... Then you would be convinced? I don't think so. But if you do, then you're just arguing for argument's sake.

And no... if you call on God... He does answer. But of course, there are always exceptions... You may be in this class (God I hope not)... Hebrews 6:4-6

Originally posted by MarkJS
.. You may be in this class (God I hope not)... Hebrews 6:4-6

Why not? Shouldn't I get what I deserve?

Originally posted by MarkJS
True, they wrote from their own experiences. But like I said.. the second person's perspective does not invalidate the perspective of the first.

Now that we've established that the bible was written by man, by their own experiences, it can no longer be called god's word. It is man's word. Man is fallible. I want to hear from the source, not secondhand from fallible people who may or may not have had some kind of divine experiences.

reply to post by Hydroman

We all deserve it, my friend... That's what makes God so special.

1 John 4:10
New Life Version (NLV)
10 This is love! It is not that we loved God but that He loved us. For God sent His Son to pay for our sins with His own blood.
1 John 4:10

Originally posted by Hydroman

Originally posted by MarkJS
True, they wrote from their own experiences. But like I said.. the second person's perspective does not invalidate the perspective of the first.

Now that we've established that the bible was written by man, by their own experiences, it can no longer be called god's word. It is man's word. Man is fallible. I want to hear from the source, not secondhand from fallible people who may or may not have had some kind of divine experiences.

It looks like you're keeping to what you believe.... and I am keeping to my beliefs.

Read the bible... Pray before you read it... like the prayer I suggested.... "God talk to me"... or "God, reveal yourself to me through this book"... something like that.

It all goes back to my first post in this thread. People talk like they are so open-minded, but with respects to God... the most important Person they will ever have to deal with... they are so closed-minded. It's just a big round circle(??)

Originally posted by MarkJS
It looks like you're keeping to what you believe.... and I am keeping to my beliefs.

See, I'm not stopping you from believing, as you accused me of earlier...

Originally posted by MarkJS
Read the bible... Pray before you read it... like the prayer I suggested.... "God talk to me"... or "God, reveal yourself to me through this book"... something like that.

Reveal himself to me through a book? That doesn't make any sense.

Originally posted by MarkJS
People talk like they are so open-minded, but with respects to God... the most important Person they will ever have to deal with... they are so closed-minded. It's just a big round circle(??)

Would you say that you are open minded, or is your mind closed? You seem hypocritical imo. My mind is open, or I would not ask out into the air if there is a god out there to reveal himself to me, or to speak to me, or anything...

Originally posted by MarkJS
We all deserve it, my friend... That's what makes God so special.

1 John 4:10
New Life Version (NLV)
10 This is love! It is not that we loved God but that He loved us. For God sent His Son to pay for our sins with His own blood.
1 John 4:10

Is it moral to allow an innocent person to take your place of punishment, if you are the one who committed the crime? Shouldn't you do your time and get what you deserve? Don't I deserve to be tortured forever in fire simply because I can't muster the faith to believe in this specific god?

reply to post by Hydroman

Is it moral to allow an innocent person to take your place of punishment, if you are the one who committed the crime? Shouldn't you do your time and get what you deserve? Don't I deserve to be tortured forever in fire...

You're close... It's Just (as in justice).. for a person to die for their own sins.

Like I said..that's what makes God special... He cared so much for you... that He Died For You... so you would not have to. That would be above just.... and into the God-kind-of-love category. That is why it's so bad...so wrong...to ignore (T)His sacrifice.

Originally posted by MarkJS
People talk like they are so open-minded, but with respects to God... the most important Person they will ever have to deal with... they are so closed-minded. It's just a big round circle(??)

Would you say that you are open minded, or is your mind closed? You seem hypocritical imo. My mind is open, or I would not ask out into the air if there is a god out there to reveal himself to me, or to speak to me, or anything...

For 99.5% of the people reading this... it's true. You may be the exception though, as I stated in a previous post

But I understand... you don't love - Love. You don't love... God... That's your right and priviledge. We all have free wills. Do what you want. If it feels good, do it.. and all that jazz.

But just be aware of what comes after....and don't act all surprised when it happens.

Originally posted by MarkJS
But I understand... you don't love - Love. You don't love... God... That's your right and priviledge. We all have free wills. Do what you want. If it feels good, do it.. and all that jazz.

Do you love any of the gods that you don't believe exist? I just believe in one less than you.

Originally posted by MarkJS
But just be aware of what comes after....and don't act all surprised when it happens.

edit on 18/11/2012 by MarkJS because: (no reason given)

Guess I better start believing because I'm afraid...?

Anyway, thanks for the heads up.