Is the USA Now Under God's Judgement?

reply to post by Hydroman
Simple. Jesus has already come. That mystery is revealed. Now we have to make our choice. Are we with the Lord or with Satan? The majority have chosen Satan and rejected the free pardon offered them.

Originally posted by DarthMuerte
You need to reread my post. The majority of the population offended the Lord by tolerating their aberrant lifestyle. The same thing is happening here in the USA now. God may be waiting for that "tipping point" where there are no longer enough righteous people left here to justify sparing us the judgement this country has rightly earned. Or, we may have already passed that point. I am not sure, thus my question and this thread.

Is your god a maniac? Why would he punish innocent people for the evil of someone else? He has always had that characteristic through out the bible. He asked humans to slaughter innocent creatures for their own sin. He made an innocent person die for everyone else. He punishes innocent people along with the guilty. What's wrong with him? Can't he pick out the guilty from the innocent and make them pay?

What do you think would happen if a judge ordered life in prison for everyone in the state of Nevada because of the things going on in Las Vegas? That judge would no longer have a job. But when your god does it, it's a cool story bro.

Originally posted by DarthMuerte
Simple. Jesus has already come. That mystery is revealed. Now we have to make our choice. Are we with the Lord or with Satan? The majority have chosen Satan and rejected the free pardon offered them.

If it's a free pardon, why are we being punished? Why do we have to even accept it? It's free. I forgive my kids all the time, even when they don't ask. My forgiveness is free to them.

reply to post by DarthMuerte


Exodus 33:11 And

the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend.

Speaking face to face as a man speaks to his friend I don;t think it could get anymore clear then that...

Genisis 32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel:

for I have seen God face to face,

and my life is preserved.

reply to post by DarthMuerte


So why don't we have any more recent cases of burning bushes or parting of seas? Where is Alan Rickman to speak on behalf of God?

Originally posted by Hydroman

Originally posted by DarthMuerte
Satan/Lucifer was the covering angel. It was his purpose to protect others from the holiness of God. Satan was later removed/will be removed from heaven. Until then, he is still an angelic being, not a human.

The point is that he was full of sin, standing in the presence of god, which you said isn't possible.

Then I was unclear. I thought the example of Moses would clear that up, but I guess I was wrong. As sinful humans(non-angelic beings), if we enter the presence of the Lord we would be destroyed. He provided a way to remove our sin so that we could be in his presence. However, he will not force you to choose him. You have freewill. You can choose how you will live. You will just have to deal with the consequences of your choice. The consequence of my choice is the hatred I face from those who have chosen Satan. I face my consequences now. Your consequences will come later. It is all about choice.

reply to post by DarthMuerte


Please see above post...

Originally posted by hawkiye
reply to post by DarthMuerte

 

Exodus 33:11 And

the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend.

Speaking face to face as a man speaks to his friend I don;t think it could get anymore clear then that...

Genisis 32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel:

for I have seen God face to face,

and my life is preserved.

Kind of hard for God to have never had a face-to-face conversation when the Bible clearly states otherwise. I wonder how much other scripture you have skipped in favour to support your position.

Originally posted by DarthMuerte
Then I was unclear. I thought the example of Moses would clear that up, but I guess I was wrong. As sinful humans(non-angelic beings), if we enter the presence of the Lord we would be destroyed. He provided a way to remove our sin so that we could be in his presence. However, he will not force you to choose him. You have freewill. You can choose how you will live. You will just have to deal with the consequences of your choice. The consequence of my choice is the hatred I face from those who have chosen Satan. I face my consequences now. Your consequences will come later. It is all about choice.

Oh. So if you're a sinful angel, you can still be in god's presence because he can't destroy them, they're too powerful for him. But, if we are human and sinful, we would be obliterated because we aren't more powerful than god like the angels. I get it now.

Now, he provided a way for our sins to be removed. How do we know this?

As a matter of fact, how do you know ANYTHING about this god of yours?

Originally posted by WhoKnows100
The 144,000 aren't "Jewish"......
every last one of them

.... follow the Lamb wherever he goes

The Israel of God have always believed in the one name given under Heaven by which one must be saved.

Incorrect, they are Jewish male virgins who accepted Christ as their messiah.

In case you never noticed, Christ never went out to preach to the Gentiles, because it was Gods covenant with the Jews that Christ was sent through the Jews to be the messiah of the Jews, first and foremost. This is reiterated in the 70 weeks of Daniel, if you read it correctly...

According to the 70 week prophecy, after 60 weeks the Messiah would come to the Jewish people, for seven years he would teach only the Jews. After 3.5 years of teaching he was to be “cut off” (aka put to death), thereby fulfilling Gods covenant and making the ultimate sacrifice that would make all temple animal sacrifice null and void.

Any of the Jews that did accept Christ are considered higher up the chain in Gods eyes to us gentiles, with the ones fitting the criteria of Revelation being the absolute “first fruits”.

The disciples themselves were all Jewish males, who accepted Christ, as well as all the original Christians in general. The disciples also continued to only preach to the Jews for the remaining 3.5 years as promised under Gods covenant, following the death of Christ. When the Sanhedrin stoned Steven, that was considered the 'final straw', after which the disciples were sent to us gentiles and the 70AD fate of Jerusalem was sealed.

Again, from this point picking back up with the 70 weeks, after the last 3.5 years, and the final act of rejection of the Messiah, Jerusalem was consigned to desolation by the Romans (people of the price). According to Jewish legend, the 'glory cloud' of God left the Temple Mount, and went to sit on the Roman Encampment. This signaled the end of the 'Age of the Jews' and the beginning of the 'Age of the Church (or Gentiles)'...

Moses never saw the face of GOD. It is clear from the surrounding passages that GOD was present but concealed himself as a pillar of smoke,like he did with the burning bush. The point was that GOD spoke to Moses as a man speaks to his friend. Indicating not only that God revealed himself to Moses with greater clearness than to any other of the prophets, but also with greater expressions of particular kindness than to any other. He spoke not as a prince to a subject, but as a man to his friend, whom he loves.

Exodus Chapter 33

8 And it came to pass, when Moses went out unto the tabernacle, that all the people rose up, and stood every man at his tent door, and looked after Moses, until he was gone into the tabernacle.

9 And it came to pass, as Moses entered into the tabernacle, the cloudy pillar descended, and stood at the door of the tabernacle, and the LORD talked with Moses.

10 And all the people saw the cloudy pillar stand at the tabernacle door: and all the people rose up and worshipped, every man in his tent door.

11 And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.

12 And Moses said unto the LORD, See, thou sayest unto me, Bring up this people: and thou hast not let me know whom thou wilt send with me. Yet thou hast said, I know thee by name, and thou hast also found grace in my sight.

13 Now therefore, I pray thee, if I have found grace in thy sight, shew me now thy way, that I may know thee, that I may find grace in thy sight: and consider that this nation is thy people.

14 And he said, My presence shall go with thee, and I will give thee rest.

15 And he said unto him, If thy presence go not with me, carry us not up hence.

16 For wherein shall it be known here that I and thy people have found grace in thy sight? is it not in that thou goest with us? so shall we be separated, I and thy people, from all the people that are upon the face of the earth.

17 And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name.

18 And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.

19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.

20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.

21 And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:

22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:

23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

reply to post by Hydroman

To me, what you're saying is that you don't know any other way how those things could be here, therefore a god must have done it.

hi, no thats definitely not what i meant, i'm not very good at explaining my feelings at all but i'll keep trying ,

do you ever wonder about the voice in your head that you listen to when making decisions? what is it inside you that makes you know right from wrong? what makes us feel happy or sad or guilty? i know science can answer the latter but something must have created the ability to feel these emotions in the first place,

i've told you lots about what i believe but i've never asked you what you believe in the way of how we were created, i'm interested to know?

thank you

Originally posted by defcon5
1)Salvation through both faith and works.

What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?(James 2:14 NKJV)

2)Papal infallibility... Which is actually a left over from the Roman Emperors being Pontifex Maximus, and claiming to “speak as gods”.

Yeah, not a big fan of this, myself, though it's not commonly used, as he is supposedly only infallible under very specific conditions and for very specific uses.

3)Prayer to anyone else besides God.

Prayers of intercession are not the same thing as praying to God -- they are not worship, they are simply prayers asking for that saint to pray for you, the same way you might ask your mom or pastor to pray for you. And there is evidence that it was an early (pre-Nicene) practice. (See here)

4)Public confession.

Well, "public" is bit of a misrepresentation, but:

Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective. (James 5:16 NIV)

5) Purgatory. This was nothing more then a manufactured Catholic dogma to support Indulgence sales.

Incorrect. Prayer for the dead was a Jewish tradition that predated Christianity, and is still done. And, again, there is clear evidence that it was an early Christian practice -- witness St. Augustine's request that people pray for his deceased mother in the Fifth Century

6) Catholic tradition having the same weight as scripture.

A counter argument would be Protestant interpretation of scripture having the same weight as scripture, but to say that God no longer gives insight into his will is to deny the existence of the Holy Spirit.

7) Papal decrees holding more weight then scripture.

I don't believe that is a true statement.

In fact the Roman Catholic Church as it stands has nothing to do with the original Church of Rome, and I can guarantee you that Peter would NEVER have accepted the title of Pope or Pontiff.

Well, I'm not sure that anyone, apart from Peter, can make that statement. Neither you nor I has the foggiest notion what Peter would think of the church today, though I think that he would be happy to know that 1/3 of the world's population are followers of Christ.

Do you realize that the line of popes actually goes back to Damasus I, and prior to him the title was held by Roman Emperors, including Nero, who was the biggest prosecutor of Christians in history, next to the Catholic Church itself (the Catholic Church has killed more Christians then anyone in history).

Anyway, the reason is the title of Pontifex Maximus was a Roman Title for the head of the collage of Pagan Churches. The title was almost always held by an Emperor, though on rare occasion it was granted to a senator. The position of the Pontifex Maximus matches exactly with the description in Daniel of the 'Little Horn', and the title conveyed much of the power of the old Emperors over to the Popes.

I'm not sure where you're getting your facts from, but they're completely wrong. The "Pope" is simply the title applied to the Bishop of Rome, and has been since the 11th Century, and the leadership of the church by the Bishop of Rome dates back to Ignatius in the First Century. Claiming that Nero was the Pope is beyond ridiculous and has absolutely no basis in history.

A Christian from the original Church of Rome would not recognize present Catholicism as being a Christian Religion.

As I have shown, many of the things that you believe to be modern day aberrations of the Catholic church actually date back to the earliest days of the church, so they would likely not have significant issue with it. On the contrary, they would not recognize many Protestant churches, which do not have the Eucharist, deny prayer for the dead, do not practice confession of sins and lack of many other traditions, as being Christian.

That doesn't make them non-Christian, of course, it just means that their practices are much different than the Christians of the First Century.

Originally posted by DarthMuerte
20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.

It's amazing to me that this all-powerful god can't make his face visible to man without killing them. Sounds like he's hiding something? Maybe he didn't want Moses to know he's reptilian?

Originally posted by Hydroman

Originally posted by DarthMuerte
20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.

It's amazing to me that this all-powerful god can't make his face visible to man without killing them. Sounds like he's hiding something? Maybe he didn't want Moses to know he's reptilian?

Look, you have chosen to reject God. I get that. Good luck to you.

Originally posted by Minnie1985
do you ever wonder about the voice in your head that you listen to when making decisions?

Those are my thoughts. Based on critical thinking and logic, powered by my oxygen rich brain, I can make decisions. Take my brain away and I won't be thinking anymore.

Originally posted by Minnie1985
what is it inside you that makes you know right from wrong?

The way I was raised helps in the way I behave. A belt did wonders to my backside. Also, I care about how I treat people. That's just who I am. There are many who do not.

Originally posted by Minnie1985
what makes us feel happy or sad or guilty? i know science can answer the latter but something must have created the ability to feel these emotions in the first place,

Something did create it. Evolution of the brain.

Originally posted by Minnie1985
i've told you lots about what i believe but i've never asked you what you believe in the way of how we were created, i'm interested to know?

I don't know for sure how we got here. There are some ideas, but who knows if they are accurate? Notice though, that even though I can't answer this question, it doesn't automatically mean that a god must have done it. (God of the gaps argument)

Originally posted by DarthMuerte
Look, you have chosen to reject God. I get that. Good luck to you.

You have rejected Allah, Vishnu, and Zeus. Good luck to you as well. Why is your god more real than all the others? How do you know anything about your god?

Originally posted by DarthMuerte
reply to post by Hydroman

 

Simple. Jesus has already come. That mystery is revealed. Now we have to make our choice. Are we with the Lord or with Satan? The majority have chosen Satan and rejected the free pardon offered them.

Christ came to save all men not some according to scripture so do you not believe Christ is capable of fulfilling all he says?

1 Timothy 2:4
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Originally posted by hawkiye

Originally posted by DarthMuerte
reply to post by Hydroman

 

Simple. Jesus has already come. That mystery is revealed. Now we have to make our choice. Are we with the Lord or with Satan? The majority have chosen Satan and rejected the free pardon offered them.

Christ came to save all men not some according to scripture so do you not believe Christ is capable of fulfilling all he says?

1 Timothy 2:4
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

You answer yourself. Those who reject the truth reject salvation. It is their choice to make as "hydroman" has apparently chosen. We all must make our choice. We must all accept the consequences of our choice.

Originally posted by DarthMuerte
You answer yourself. Those who reject the truth reject salvation. It is their choice to make as "hydroman" has apparently chosen. We all must make our choice. We must all accept the consequences of our choice.

What is the consequence of my choice? And do you accept the consequences of your choice of rejecting Allah and his prophet Mohammed?

reply to post by hawkiye


If Jesus was the messiah, why is he not the messiah to all people? Even according to scripture he fails to meet the requirements. He was not of the line of David. He was not the Messiah of the Judean people. He did not meet the requirements of the returned Buddha. He did not meet the requirements of many other cultures that expected a "savior/ teacher" and had their own way of identifying him.

If he came and was the messiah to all, why then did he fail to meet all their requirements?

I would say he is not understood by people who spend their whole life studying him.

I would say his message is misrepresented by religion to establish a proprietary authority over his universal message, which is not dissimilar to many others we have seen in history, or will see.