Christianity and Abortion

To reply to the post above, when I say true morality, what i mean by this is what
society agrees on as morality, there are basic things we as humans mostly
agree on, things that can be seen as cut and dry in a sense, if you murder
someone just because you wanted to murder them, most everyone would
say you are wrong for doing so.

For society to exist, since we as humans live in groups by our very nature,
then some rules must obviously apply, the idea in very simplistic terms
comes down to "you leave me alone, I leave you alone" while that's a huge
oversimplification obviously, i believe it is actually the basis for morality. Or it could
be said this way: "I would really hate to be killed by someone, so i think
we need laws that protect people from that danger, consequences for
your actions should be here in the real world and not in some proposed
afterlife that cant even be proven to exist".

The reason I say it must be that way is that the idea of someone else
being able to forgive you for something they were not even involved in
is a shifting of blame, it gives them the idea that they are forgiven no
matter what and they don't have to apologize or make recompense to
the actual person they have wronged.

To address the other question, I will start off by saying i should have been
more clear by what i meant in my first post, what i was trying to point
out is that by christian standards they cant even decide whether or not
abortion is immoral or moral according to the book the say is the basis
for their morality, but they aren't claiming that, they are flat out saying its
immoral according to their book, this to me all goes back to the fact that
they cant simply admit when they are unsure because religion is all about
being the "right" religion and their gods word is infallible.

So to say your a christian who believes that abortion is OK or to say that
your a christian that believes abortion is not OK is literally pointing out
that their morality is human based and not based on the book they claim
it to be based on. because the book itself is immoral and contradictory.
If all they want to do is justify their belief then they can do that with the
bible all day long, the huge issue it creates is that they don't just want
to justify their belief they want us all to say they are right and agree
even when its obvious they are simply spinning it the way they wish it
to be.

the reason i pointed it out the way i did is this isn't even really an argument
about abortion, to me its truly a morality argument, the actual answer to abortion
is that sometimes it is moral other times it is not moral, so sometimes
the christians who believe its ok are right and sometimes the others are
right, however they will never say that, they both claim to be right 100% of the
time.

If we were to use that logic in everyday life then when they execute a prisoner
or a soldier in a war kills someone, then they are just as guilty of murder
as the man who simply did it because he wanted to and not to save his
life or punish someone who we believe to be so dangerous they cant
be left as a part of society, those are simply examples but i believe they
are good ones to consider, using this idea of absolute morality that
doesn't even exist in the bible is the actual problem. Simply being
honest about things makes much of this problem go away, tell
the truth when the answer is: well i honestly don't know, it should
be up to the person and not up to a religion.

I am going to add my personal opinion here, the problem, i think anyway,
with abortion itself is that it does indeed go against what most people
agree is morality, the termination of a possible life, one that has already
been fertilized, to me is wrong unless there is ample reason to do so.
the answer isn't cut and dry to me and obviously it isn't cut and dry to
religion either so the irony is that though we travel different roads we
end up at a slightly similar destination anyway. The key difference being
that i am willing to admit and if presented with enough evidence i can
change my view on things without contradicting my morality because
my morality changes with well thought out reason and evidence.
Religious morality is time and again very hard to change because
they continue down this path of: we have to be right or we suffer forever.


I'm sorry i didn't answer the actual question you posited, No i do not agree
that Christianity as a whole accepts abortion as OK, they fall on both sides
of the issue because they use the same morality the rest of us do, whether
they admit that or not.
A good example for this is: If god were to come to us all today and say "Murder
is now ok, kill all you like" would it be moral to murder? I say no it would not.
and i believe you would be hard pressed to find huge numbers of christians
who would say yes to that.

My parents don't agree with abortion in any way shape or form, they believe
it is wrong no matter what as they say it violates the thou shalt not kill
clause of the bible. so them being part of the christian religion shows that
as a whole christians do not agree on what the book says or they cherry
pick what they want from the book.

reply to post by Josephus


What were Judaism's views on abortion? Certainly the God of the Old Testament had no problem with it. It seems to me that there were Hebrew women who wanted an abortion for whatever reason, maybe famine, newly widowed, or maybe infidelity while their husband's were away at war....

Hebrew women, as well as all women, delivered each other's babies and women knew what herbs and roots would cause an abortion. Women have never needed a man's permission to terminate a pregnancy, although there were occasions where men executed ritual abortions.

Men, even noted physicians, didn't deliver babies. That was woman's work, as was everything else associated with the bearing of children. Midwives had the skills of turning breached babies, skillfiully breaking fetal bones when necessary, unraveling umbilical cords, removing the caul and clearing the breathing path, and administering drugs that caused abortions, all things Hebrew men deemed unclean.

reply to post by gnosticagnostic

Ah. Thank you for putting that straight. There would be a major reduction in abortions if Plan B and the Morning After Pill were made easily available to all women. The Church has no issue when thousands of fertilized Human Egg Cells are killed after a select few are used to impregnate a woman at a Fertility Clinic...so they should not have issue with a method that will not allow a Fertilized egg to implant itself in the uterine wall.

If they do object then this would be the HEIGHT OF HYPOCRISY! Split Infinity

Originally posted by SplitInfinity
reply to post by gnosticagnostic

 

Ah. Thank you for putting that straight. There would be a major reduction in abortions if Plan B and the Morning After Pill were made easily available to all women. The Church has no issue when thousands of fertilized Human Egg Cells are killed after a select few are used to impregnate a woman at a Fertility Clinic...so they should not have issue with a method that will not allow a Fertilized egg to implant itself in the uterine wall.

If they do object then this would be the HEIGHT OF HYPOCRISY! Split Infinity

You're welcome and on that note might I just add perhaps they want more octomoms? lol joking!!

reply to post by gnosticagnostic

You are right about that! Many who go to Fertility Clinics end up with Twins or more! Owch! I love kids but not that much! LOL! Split Infinity

reply to post by SplitInfinity


lol you will note there isn't a thread yet about whether or not fertility clinics are the will of god... after all if god made one infertile perhaps it was for a reason.. but who should we as men decide who can and cannot reproduce eh?

reply to post by gnosticagnostic

I don't know but I think after my trip to a Super Store the other day...I hate to shop...and watching some parents with their kids...I would think it is prudent for people to have to pass a test or have Continuing Education before having a child! LOL!

Mom...can I have...SMACK!...AHHHH!

Shut Up! Push the cart! LOL!

Split Infinity

reply to post by marbles87

Eventually we will be abortion live breathing infants legally where it is illegal to leave your baby in a garbage can. One is legal one isn't. Outcome is still the same for the baby.

Too late marbles

***NOTE: UNLIKE REAL LIFE, NO ACTUAL CHILDREN WERE KILLED IN THIS VIDEO****

reply to post by bloodreviara

Dear bloodreviara,

You have written very well and I am exceedingly grateful that you took the time to explain things to me. You deserve many stars. I think you are on the right path.

I completely agree with you that there is a certain morality which society as a whole agrees with. As an aside, I note with some alarm that more and more people are violating these "cut and dried" principles. I'm thinking particularly of the flash mobs robbing stores and that twisted "game" of Knockout King.

In times past, these cut and dried principles were referred to as natural law. They transferred across cultures. Vikings, Buddhists, American Indians, Egyptians, all showed respect for basic principles.

Ideals like honoring the elderly, welcoming the stranger, aiding the widow and distressed, and many more, can properly be called universal.

Jesus did not bring any new morality. There isn't any new morality, all we can do is twist and over-emphasize one aspect of the morality we already have. Providing for your family can become greed and selfishness, respect for the elderly can become ancestor worship, unity and support of your country can become racial purity decrees.

Jesus' purpose (among others) was to remind the world of this "true" morality, show people that they had fallen short, and ask them to reform their lives.

One of these universal truths He reminded us of is that there is a just God. The overwhelming number of people throughout time have believed that to be true.

Christianity is reminding people of this true morality, encouraging them to bring their lives into conformance with it, and to tell them that even though they have failed and a just God requires a penalty, that payment has been made available to them.

Abortion is, as you point out, against true morality, but there are times when religion says it's allowed, for example, to save the life of the mother.

People often find themselves in situations where they have to make a moral decision, but they're often too emotionally involved to make a good choice. Look at someone who decides that it's perfectly all right to steal from a company because they won't get caught. Or, perhaps, everyone in their group is doing it and they don't want to be odd. At times like that the Church steps in and says "You know true morality says that's wrong." Lots of times we don't want to hear that, and it makes us uncomfortable. Unfortunately, our solution sometimes is to make up our own morality with which we are more comfortable.

Your writing and thinking is very impressive, thank you.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by SplitInfinity and gnosticagnostic

Just a small point, Catholic teaching is, and has been, against the disposal of fertilized eggs that occur at fertility clinics.

reply to post by windword


I'm saying that every piece of evidence from the OP was from the old testament and therefore does not fully represent the beliefs of Christians as a whole. Also for those Christians who are not Protestant it is my understanding that they have long held that Abortion is wrong as their faiths are not solely based on scripture in the way that Protestantism is supposed to be. Their religion is more fluid in the same way that many branches of Judaism are; in which the opinions of early leaders and the ongoing interpretations of scholars are also taken as law. I would compare this to the way some believe the U.S. Constitution should be a living document in which its interpretations and applications should be tailored to the environment in which we now live as opposed to those who believe the constitution should be applied nearly verbatim.

reply to post by charles1952

Chuck...although I believe that people have a right to believe as they wish...I do not agree with others pushing their beliefs either verbally or legally upon others.

What some may believe are Moral Imperatives or their concepts of Morality being so cut and dry...are NEVER SHARED by others with a total different concept upon what is acceptable. Split Infinity

reply to post by SplitInfinity

Dear SplitInfinity,

It's always a joy to talk with you. While not being the apple of my eye, you are certainly some kind of fruit wedged in there.

Chuck...although I believe that people have a right to believe as they wish...I do not agree with others pushing their beliefs either verbally or legally upon others.

I may agree with you completely, depending on what some words mean. I would think we would allow people to tell others of their beliefs, that seems like First Amendment time. As far as legally goes, well the idea of voting comes into play here. People vote for all sorts of things, legalizing prostitution and drugs, banning or allowing guns, whether gay marriages should be recognized or not. I would think we should still allow that sort of thing. But I agree with you that forcing people to accept one religion or another is not only wrong, it is stupid.

What some may believe are Moral Imperatives or their concepts of Morality being so cut and dry...are NEVER SHARED by others with a total different concept upon what is acceptable.

In my own defense, may I say I was responding to a poster who was accepting the idea of a "true morality?" I was simply building on that. But I still believe the underlying principles of morality are universal, or nearly so.

The world pretty much agrees that killing is a bad thing. (exceptions include self-defense, etc.) The difficulty in the case of abortion seems to be over the question "Is it killing?" That, of course, is another discussion.

But I'm glad your here, brightened my day, you did.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by charles1952


I am aware of this. Do you not see this as Hypocrisy? The two events have the same outcome...that being the Deaths of Fertilized Eggs. Split Infinity

reply to post by charles1952

Thank you for being kind in your words...although...FRUIT!? LOL!

I have a very unique perspective upon Morality as my Psych Test came back stating that I have a certain Moral Flexibility. I have been all over the World and people in different countries think Very Different than you and I. I also work in the Field as I am a "CIVILIAN" Problem Solver and work with the very best of our Military.

I have seen things that the average person could not handle nor ever forget. I myself have my own Demons but in all this I think the most EVIL of things is a person or group of people trying to impose their will or value system upon others.

This is at the Heart of this Topic and being what I am...I see that Evil here. Split Infinity

reply to post by SplitInfinity

Dear SplitInfinity,

Help, I'm confused.

I am aware of this. Do you not see this as Hypocrisy? The two events have the same outcome...that being the Deaths of Fertilized Eggs. Split Infinity

I always thought the Church opposed contraception, with the desire to not prevent fertilized eggs from becoming implanted. They also don't want to see them destroyed. I'm missing the hypocrisy. What do you have in mind?

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by charles1952


The Church has expressed it's support for Catholic Married Couples to seek Fertility Clinics to be able to have a Child. Yet the church is against Plan B or Morning After. The end result is the same. Split Infinity

reply to post by SplitInfinity


I must agree with you on that, its a very common thing for them to nit pick one
side of an issue and totally ignore the side they believe is ok, for one thing
to be true the other must as well, since the catholic churches main argument is
that its against nature and god created nature, to kill a baby it would also have
to be against nature to artificially create, or help to create a child as that would
be going against gods plan per say.

the other side is that you could use the same to justify abortion, well since its
possible that must mean its part of gods plan as it would not be possible
to do so otherwise, again we get back to the problem that religious morality claims
to be absolute while falling so far short of the ability to tell us right from wrong
that it dilutes morality itself. the bible can be used to either justify or condemn
on the exact same issue depending on your specific goal, hence why it should
not be used as the basis for morality.

reply to post by SplitInfinity

Dear SplitInfinity,

Well, I couldn't have very well said that you're the vegetable of my eye, could I?

You're right, as you know, about the evil of interfering with a person's will and belief. That denies the very humanity and dignity of the victim. There are horrendous ways to go about it, as you've seen, and there are more socially acceptable methods which are just as evil. That essential dignity is one of the most fundamental truths in my moral structure, and, apparently, in yours as well.

Oh, on the question of fertility clinics. I took a quick look at Wiki and came up with this:

The Catholic Church opposes all kinds of in vitro fertilisation because, as with contraception, it separates the procreative purpose of the marriage act from its unitive purpose:


This particular doctrine, often expounded by the magisterium of the Church, is based on the inseparable connection, established by God, which man on his own initiative may not break, between the unitive significance and the procreative significance which are both inherent to the marriage act.

But maybe I'm looking at something different from what you meant.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by charles1952


The Church has not rendered an directive to Priests to preach against the evils of Fertility Clinics. They have turned a Blind Eye on this subject and have made various conflicting statements both Pro and Con. Split Infinity