Christianity and Abortion

reply to post by gnosticagnostic


Thank you for sharing your experiences with us

I want a honest opinion for a someone who is completely against abortions. I know its a little out there but I am just poking for honest information. If you where pregnant, somehow where able to find out your child would be the next Adolf Hitler, would you still be saying that life must be brought into the world no matter what reasons negate it? I know, its a little out there, but tickle my curiosity for me please.

Originally posted by TheSparrowSings
I want a honest opinion for a someone who is completely against abortions. I know its a little out there but I am just poking for honest information. If you where pregnant, somehow where able to find out your child would be the next Adolf Hitler, would you still be saying that life must be brought into the world no matter what reasons negate it? I know, its a little out there, but tickle my curiosity for me please.

That is a ludicrous question. Some adults don't even know who they are yet. So, maybe adults should be asked the same question. Technically abortions have nothing to do with your question.

But the best way to find an answer is to ask your mother if she thought you could become Hitler? If you have children, do you think they will become Hitler, even now? How about grandchildren? Your neighbor? Their children? Your sister/brother? Their children? The list can go on and on. You were right, it is way out there.

reply to post by GideonFaith


Yes it is out there. Believe me, I was just as blown away when I was asked the question and I am pro-choice. Seriously, this is why I am curious. I enjoyed your answer, especially about adults not even knowing who they are yet. Its a good way to reply to such a question. If the question had any merit and the foresight was possible, I think any person would probably choose to say that they would not have the child. That is what I said. Wish I had thought to say what you did.

reply to post by gnosticagnostic


If you are replying to me as I am not sure...I will tell you I do not think anything negative about you. I believe in a Woman's Right to Choose. I also believe however distasteful it may be...that abortion is not morally wrong if the developing fetus is aborted before it gains Sentience.

At this point all we have is a bunch of growing and splitting cells. It is not a thinking child nor is it a choice to be taken lightly. In the event the fetus is in it's later stages of development...I personally do not think it is morally acceptable to abort a Sentient Child.

This however does not change the fact that it has nothing to do with me and I should not have any rights in the matter nor should anyone else except the Woman who is pregnant. Split Infinity

Originally posted by TheSparrowSings
reply to post by GideonFaith

 

Yes it is out there. Believe me, I was just as blown away when I was asked the question and I am pro-choice. Seriously, this is why I am curious. I enjoyed your answer, especially about adults not even knowing who they are yet. Its a good way to reply to such a question. If the question had any merit and the foresight was possible, I think any person would probably choose to say that they would not have the child. That is what I said. Wish I had thought to say what you did.

Even if I was pregnant, had a child, adult child or grandchildren, I would love them and show them the correct way to be and pray just like I do now, for them to not to become that way. That is not a reason to abort.

Originally posted by PurpleChiten
reply to post by Quadrivium

 

Since you are responding on a thread I created with things not related to the thread, it would seem that you are the one trolling, not me

Huh?

Your title------------> Christianity and Abortion

My post......

reply to post by PurpleChiten


I have not read all of the post yet but I will go back and do so.

Point 1: Abortion is NOT a religious issue. Christians are not the only ones who believe life begins at conception.
Many athiest, scientist, doctors and people of other faith believe it as well.

Point 2: One can Not tell you what the bible teaches by reading a web page. If you want to know, read it from cover to cover. Then study some more.

Point 3: Why are you trolling (not an actual point but I had to ask)?

When a woman has an abortion she takes away a human life. You do not have to be a Christian to understand that.
Think of it this way................
When you hear of someone who was convicted and executed for a crime they did not commit, how does it make you feel? Like an injustice has been done? Well that is how many feel about abortion. The life of an innocent person was taken.
Sorry, this has nothing to do with religion. This is a question of being humane.

How is this not related to the thread?

Did you really think you could "Christian Bash" and no one would call you out on it?
Quad

Originally posted by GideonFaith

Even if I was pregnant, had a child, adult child or grandchildren, I would love them and show them the correct way to be and pray just like I do now, for them to not to become that way. That is not a reason to abort.

You've never been pregnant or had a child?

Originally posted by Quadrivium

Did you really think you could "Christian Bash" and no one would call you out on it?
Quad

From the OP.

Here is a take on the abortion issue from a different, still Christian, perspective.

He's not Christian bashing. He's merely offering another Christian perspective. You know that there are more than one Christian perspective, right?

I'm not sure I want to go down the road of "When does life begin" again. But I am struck by three things in the OP. One is the connection between Christianity and abortion. The second is the limited choice of verses. And the third is the idea that since Christ didn't use the word "abortion" He, therefore didn't condemn it.

GideonFaith has mounted a stout defense, may I add just a little more?

Christianity, from its beginnings, has opposed abortion. They did occur in those times, but observe just some of the objections to it. From about 300 B.C., physicians were expected to reject requests for abortions. From the Hippocratic Oath:

I will follow that system of regimen which, according to my ability and judgment, I consider for the benefit of my patients, and abstain from whatever is deleterious and mischievous. I will give no deadly medicine to any one if asked, nor suggest any such counsel; and in like manner I will not give to a woman a pessary to produce abortion. With purity and with holiness I will pass my life and practice my Art.

This was the basic understanding that the Christian world began in.

A couple of interesting verses:

Job 31:18 Though like a father God has reared me from my youth,
guiding me even from my mother's womb

Luke Chapter 1 41 When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 42 In a loud voice she exclaimed: "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! 43 But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44 For behold, when the voice of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy.

But when He who had set me apart before I was born, and had called me through His grace (The Letter of Paul to the Galatians 1:15)

Also interesting is how the Church, at the very beginning saw this issue.

HIPPOLYTUS OF ROME (170-236 AD) "Women who were reputed to be believers began to take drugs ... to expel what was conceived, since they did not want to have a child. See then what great impiety that lawless one [Emperor Callistus] has fallen to, by teaching both adultery and murder at the same time."

ATHENAGORAS OF ATHENS (ca. 177 AD) "What reason would we have to commit murder when we even say that women who induce abortions are murderers, and will have to give account of it to God? For the same person would not regard the fetus in the womb as a living thing and therefore an object of God's care, and at the same time slay it, once it had come to life." (A Plea Regarding Christians, chapter 35)

TERTULLIAN (ca. 223 AD) "We acknowledge, therefore, that life begins with conception, because we contend that the soul begins at conception. Life begins when the soul begins." “For us [Christians], murder is once and for all forbidden; so even the child in the womb, while yet the mother’s blood is still being drawn on to form the human being, it is not lawful for us to destroy. To forbid birth is only quicker murder . . . He is a man, who is to be a man; the fruit is always present in the seed.” ~ Tertullian, 197, Apologeticus, page 9.

SAINT CLEMENT OF ALEXANDRIA (223 AD) "Those who use abortifacients commit homicide."
“. . . if we would not kill off the human race born and developing according to God’s plan, then our whole lives would be lived according to nature. Women who make use of some sort of deadly abortion drug kill not only the embryo but, together with it, all human kindness.”

The most that can be said for the OP's position is that some, who are not opposed to abortion, are ignoring centuries of Christian teaching, from the beginning to today.

I have pointed this out to many people so far, the argument religions use against
anything and everything they dislike is that its immoral according to their
reigion and hence its wrong for everyone, yet when you examine their idea
or what is and is not moral it falls flat on its face, if their morality is based
on the bible then it is flawed morality.

The bible not only condones murder in the name of the god they believe in
it condones the murder of your own child or wife should you acutally follow
the bibles morality, the problem is they want to pick and choose what they
believe out of the bible is "true morality". the problem we run into there
is they cant agree on it even, there are so many things listed in the bible
that not only contradict themselves they simply prove beyond a shadow
of a doubt that mans idea of morality was used and not some all powerful beings.

Until they can admit that the bible is immoral and we as secularist have fought
tooth and nail to bring true morality to laws that govern people, things will
never get better. If it were up to religions we would see the perversion of
real morality in the name of bringing things in line with their religion.

Abortion is both moral and immoral is the true answer here, it can be used
for both good and bad, a good way to look at it would be this: Is the military
a moral or immoral thing? if you answer honestly then it is both, it can be
used for good and bad both, the problem with what religion does is that
it makes blanket statements and absolutes where there are none.

To believe you automatically have the moral high ground without actually
having any morality is just wrong; to lie, cheat and steal because your
god makes the rules and well you only have to answer to him is a fallacy
sold to you by religion, morality is based on human beings by human beings.
It is what we use to build society, any time we allow religion to rule morality
we see time and again it leads to completely immoral things.

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by GideonFaith

Even if I was pregnant, had a child, adult child or grandchildren, I would love them and show them the correct way to be and pray just like I do now, for them to not to become that way. That is not a reason to abort.

You've never been pregnant or had a child?

Even though this reply was not directed at you. I will say this: First, it is none of your business if I have been pregnant or had children or not. Second, I don't have much to say to you since you called me stupid on another thread. Third, at the end of the day, it's still not your business. Fourth, you must never read post from our previous thread or you would know. Fifth, it's still not your business.

Stay on the OP issue, it's not about me.

reply to post by bloodreviara

Dear bloodreviara,

You bring up some fascinating questions. Is the Bible immoral? What do you mean by "true morality," where does that standard come from?

But I think I'd prefer to stay on the OP's point, which seems to be that Christianity accepts, as one school of thought, that abortion is acceptable. Do you agree with the OP?

It seems that there are some who say both, "I accept abortion," and "I am a good Christian." For the life of me, I can't see how that's done. Have you any way to shed light on this question?

With respect,
Charles1952

Here is my one and only look at abortion for right now.

If you are pro-life you can't just say "Every child deserves a chance." Since pro-life is now your answer. What is the solution. Now you have hundreds, thousands, hundred of thousands, millions, tens of millions of babies that are now alive and we do not have the resources to feed them and the parents can't take care of said child due to the collapse of society. It is estimated over 40 million babies in the US have been aborted in recent years. Someone pro-life please tell me how you plan on feeding, housing, clothing 40+ million extra mouths with all the poverty that we currently have now. There are thousands of kids still waiting for homes and you say sure lets take on 40 million more.

The pro-choicers. How can you morally say that abortion is an option in every pregnancy. It should not be "plan A" to get an abortion. An abortion should have to be requested and granted through a process where it is of best interest of parents and of the unborn. I can say best interest of the unborn is abortion if the parents are drug users, homeless, disabled, or other less than acceptable situations and an immediate family member can't step in for the child. A child should never be aborted because it was simply "unwanted" when the parents had every mean to bring the child up in this world. The moment the egg and sperm join a life is created. Cells start to divide and grow and last time I checked when something does that it is living. By allowing abortion to be open and nonrestrictive it leaves the door open for even more and more morally questionable behavior to possibly become acceptable. You know that if you say you can only have a abortion before xx week there will be someone to say how can the cut off be xx week I'm farther along than that change the law to xx weeks. Eventually we will be abortion live breathing infants legally where it is illegal to leave your baby in a garbage can. One is legal one isn't. Outcome is still the same for the baby.

Abortion is such a touchy subject because it is the very battle ground between our animal side (leave the weak and unwanted behind) and our Human side (save everything from everything)

To be honest as of right now and the situation on Earth it pains me to say that regrettably for right now abortion is saving the pain and suffering of children very much alive already on this planet by not taking from them the little resources we have for them. Abortion I think is a pawn to control the US population and to stir up debate to split the people up. Instead of allowing people to get upset over other things like border security, Economy, Terrorists, and other things the MSM just dangles touchy subjects for us to fight over instead of getting to the real problem.

I hope one day humans will be arguing on what we call our newly found Earth like planet to inhabit and not weather or not it's legal to kill a baby.

But back to the religious morality of it. I personally split it down the middle. I know for humans to advance abortions will happen. We have the tech to find problems in fetuses early and abort if the baby has a disability. In order for humans to advance to the next round of humans we must weed out the disease and bad genes. It must happen if we ever plan to become more than we are now. No animal on Earth got to where it is by building their next generation on bad genes which we are currently doing as humans.

But the more than animal side of me knows that killing needlessly is sin and does not sit well with my views on life as it is given to everything from God. I know that killing an unborn child just because no one wanted it is murder but it must happen unless we wish to regress as living creatures.

It seems to me that what has been made here is an argument against Judaism's possible views on abortion not Christianity's.

In reference to John the Baptist:

For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb. Luke 1:15 KJV

For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy. Luke 1:44
Joy is an emotion which I assume everyone would agree that non living things do not experience.

Also Elizabeth the mother of John the Baptist when visited by Mary says the following:

And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? Luke 1:43

Elizabeth refers to the unborn Jesus as her Lord suggesting that he is a fully living being. Unlike the argument against the references from Psalms about God knowing us in the womb, Elizabeth is not omnipotent and therefore cannot make an observation from outside of time.

Originally posted by GideonFaith

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by GideonFaith

Even if I was pregnant, had a child, adult child or grandchildren, I would love them and show them the correct way to be and pray just like I do now, for them to not to become that way. That is not a reason to abort.

You've never been pregnant or had a child?

Even though this reply was not directed at you. I will say this: First, it is none of your business if I have been pregnant or had children or not. Second, I don't have much to say to you since you called me stupid on another thread. Third, at the end of the day, it's still not your business. Fourth, you must never read post from our previous thread or you would know. Fifth, it's still not your business.

Personally I'd say your age is showing.

Partly because you can't tell the difference between someone saying "Let's not be Stupid" in reference to unnecessary antagonistic posts - - such as the one above. And calling someone Stupid.

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by GideonFaith

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by GideonFaith

Even if I was pregnant, had a child, adult child or grandchildren, I would love them and show them the correct way to be and pray just like I do now, for them to not to become that way. That is not a reason to abort.

You've never been pregnant or had a child?

Even though this reply was not directed at you. I will say this: First, it is none of your business if I have been pregnant or had children or not. Second, I don't have much to say to you since you called me stupid on another thread. Third, at the end of the day, it's still not your business. Fourth, you must never read post from our previous thread or you would know. Fifth, it's still not your business.

Personally I'd say your age is showing.

Partly because you can't tell the difference between someone saying "Let's not be Stupid" in reference to unnecessary antagonistic posts - - such as the one above. And calling someone Stupid.

Annee, you don't know a thing about me. Well, the only thing you really know is that I am against abortion and believes in life starting at conception.

Don't ask questions or post threads if you don't want anyone to reply to them. I wasn't antagonistic to you, it was simply non of your business.

Once again, you are off topic! Maybe your age is showing!!

It has always been my take, that if Christians acted Christ like, abortion wouldn't be such a huge issue.

If every Christian that had the means say took in and adopted a child instead of say picketing an abortion clinic there would not be such a high instance of abortion in America.

As is how many children sit in foster care or orphanages going with out loving parents? How many young mothers with out the means look at the situation and decide the world is better off with out one more unwanted child?

Maybe than abortion would be reserved for cases of rape or saving the mother...

Originally posted by windword

Originally posted by Quadrivium

Did you really think you could "Christian Bash" and no one would call you out on it?
Quad

From the OP.

Here is a take on the abortion issue from a different, still Christian, perspective.

He's not Christian bashing. He's merely offering another Christian perspective. You know that there are more than one Christian perspective, right?

Did you read the same op as me?

They are presently trying to cram down everyone's throat that life begins at conception, that's not really in line with biblical teachings at all. In fact, it would be more of a scientific statement than a religious one. Of course, that group uses whatever may suit their purpose to push their ideas onto others, case in point.

Yea, that's really uplifting to Christians.

Originally posted by SplitInfinity
reply to post by gnosticagnostic

 

If you are replying to me as I am not sure...I will tell you I do not think anything negative about you. I believe in a Woman's Right to Choose. I also believe however distasteful it may be...that abortion is not morally wrong if the developing fetus is aborted before it gains Sentience.

At this point all we have is a bunch of growing and splitting cells. It is not a thinking child nor is it a choice to be taken lightly. In the event the fetus is in it's later stages of development...I personally do not think it is morally acceptable to abort a Sentient Child.

This however does not change the fact that it has nothing to do with me and I should not have any rights in the matter nor should anyone else except the Woman who is pregnant. Split Infinity

Actually no i wasn't responding to your post.. I was responding to the other poster a few above yours who had the idea that women who had abortions regretted the decision ... which is not the case with all women as it's not the case all women long to be a mother and reproduce... lol.. so instead of calling her out I just stated my own story which... was very contrary to her/his own opinion.

The fact is people will argue what is and what isn't God's will from now until we cease to exist. What is the will of man? What is the will of god? A 100 years ago both myself and my child would have been long dead and it would have been considered the "will of god" but that's not today's view now is it because the "will of man" makes life and death decisions every day. It is not man's place to judge others or the will of god... and yet they will continue to do such through infinity...


and a side note to Annee.. thanks !! I got use of the computer again woot woot.. had to boot the ol man off haha