Christianity and Abortion

reply to post by windword


Winword, I hate to say this, but the picture you are referring to was put up on the other abortion thread. Not this one. I only posted a picture of the surgery on this thread. With two abortion threads, it can get confusing.

reply to post by windword

Your opinion, nothing more
Care to try again?

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
reply to post by gnosticagnostic

 

Can a new born baby survive on it's own?....

Can a child of 2 years old survive on it's own?...

Being able to survive doesn't make you human. Because if it does then all animals are human.

One of my sisters died at 8 months old because she was born with a bad heart.

I was only 6 years old when this happened but I remember carrying her. I remember her holding unto my hand and sighing heavily. To this day I still can see her face, and her gestures in my mind as if I was watching a movie.

She was not able to survive on her own, and she was born with a bad heart... Did that make her not human?...

My sister could not speak because she was too young, did that make her less human?...

How is that different from a human fetus?

edit on 13-11-2012 by ElectricUniverse because: (no reason given)

um.. because your sister was an 8 month old baby who could breath maybe... who could sustain life from the womb.. puhlease.. let me guess you've never had a child... your sister had fully developed pieces and parts that functioned.

i've read your other post so there is no reason to debate with you... my child was a fetus.. I would gladly show you the difference

reply to post by Quadrivium


And what do you have? Opinion?

Can you prove that a fetus is a sentient sovereign being that should be afforded the same rights as it's host?

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by Quadrivium

 

And what do you have? Opinion?

Can you prove that a fetus is a sentient sovereign being that should be afforded the same rights as it's host?

I do not have to. All I have to do is prove it is a Human life.
But would it do any good?
Would it change your mind?
NO!
You will still justify Convenient murder no matter what I say.
I call it "convenient murder" because when many women have abortions they are only thinking of themselves and how having a baby will affect them.
I said many not all, so don't jump up on your high horse and start on that.

reply to post by Quadrivium


Do you believe that a woman who employs contraception, such as the IUD, The Pill or Norplant, who consciously choose to make their womb an hostile environment, so that a fertilized ovum can't attach to the uterine walls, therefore flushing the ovum out of her body, is also guilty of a "convenient murder?"

If so, then biology is your GOD, and you have no reference for the free will of the female population as a whole. And therefore, you scoff at the value of the sovereign lives of the living.

You are no better than a slave driver, forcing woman to breed and give birth against their free will.

reply to post by windword


That is a revolving door darling,
Which do you like better, murderer or accessory to murder? Either way that is what it is. One day maybe you will come to see this.But not today I think.
I have been reminded a few times that this is a "Christian" thread, I will make sure to Pray for your soul, if murders have them.

Originally posted by gnosticagnostic


I miscarried at 19 weeks.. that's half way thru gestation.. i held him in the palm of my hand.. i have pictures of him.. and let me tell you.. he was not capable of life.. did he have potential to be life.. sure and maybe in 100 more years they can save even younger premature children however the fetus was not fully formed, although he was normal for his gestational age. So i have seen a fetus in the flesh and you can call it a baby all day long but it wasn't...and he never got to be one.

Me too. I was a good 4 months when I had a spontaneous abortion.

I held it in my hand too. It was not a baby. And its never going to be one.

I did not take pictures and I did not feel any great attachment to it.

I am one who has definite belief the Energy Consciousness (soul) is our natural eternal state - - - that physical is just a host - - - a chosen experience.

Absence of physical host in no way affects or damages the Energy Consciousness.

reply to post by windword


Windword,
This issue is VERY close to my heart.
The Doctors, before I was born, wanted my mother to abort me. If she would have, I would not be here. I would have had my life taken away, I was innocent, I had yet not committed any sins,
I was a Human life dependent on my mother just like any child is dependent on their parents.
I was not a convicted felon, I did not deserve the death penalty, yet it almost happened.
Perhaps you saw my story in the short story forum, if not I would like to share it.

What if She Would Have Said Yes?

Almost 39 years ago,
a woman made a choice.
She made a choice for me,
because I did not have a voice.

She was hemorrhaging badly;
Blood was everywhere.
To the hospital she went
for the pain she could not bear

The doctors searched
but only one heartbeat they found.
It was hers and hers alone;
The other did not make a sound.

They scheduled a surgery
called a DNC.
They told her it was necessary
to rid her body of ME!

The day before the surgery
a nurse checked her again.
The look on her face
was just short of a grin.

A tiny heartbeat she found
which brought the doctor to the room.
He listened himself,
yet his look was of gloom

“The baby is not viable,
and will be born brain dead
It will be a burden on your family.
How about an abortion?” he said.

She argued with the doctor,
but he would not give way
“You have three boys already.
Why put them through this disarray?”

“He will never walk or talk,
or do anything for himself
The rest of your family?
You may as well but their lives on a shelf”.

My mother was strong
and I can almost hear her say;
“He can be born a two headed monkey
But I am having him anyway”.

A few months later,
a baby boy was born
The doctors were shocked,
For there were no reasons to mourn.

They checked the baby,
looking for some sign.
Of things they had told her,
but it was not HIS design.

Now, almost 39 years later,
I have three boys of my own.
I am healthy and intelligent.
How had she known?

I thank God for my mother
and His guiding hand.
When faced with the choice,
my mother made a stand.

She chose not to abort me.
I am happy I confess.
No need for me to worry about
"What if she had said yes"?

I do not think this will change your mind, but this is my story and I wanted to share.
You may not see it, or want to see it but abortion is wrong.
It takes away a human life each time it is performed.

Quad

Originally posted by Seede

You have Exodus opposite from what the truth actually reads. In order to understand you should read in context and not as you should want it to read.

How do you know? All you know is there are writings and you believe what you've been told they mean?

While I do believe there have been "interactions" between humans and off-planet beings. The writings are by man. They are mans interpretation and understanding of events. It does not make those interpretations/understandings factual.

No one. None of us know anything for sure.

I remember the day I stepped out of the "God circle" - - what an awakening and a weight lifted off my shoulders.

Almost all humans are assimilated from birth to believe there is a god. It is taught to us.

After God formed man in Genesis 2:7, He “breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and it was then that the man became a living being”. Although the man was fully formed by God in all respects, he was not a living being until after taking his first breath.

reply to post by PurpleChiten


@ PurpleChiten

Once again you have not understood Torah. According to Torah, Adam was created in two distinct portions. The first portion of his existence came when he was created in the terrestrial image of the celestial Father. That terrestrial image was the celestial "Word" who is the image of the Father. The second portion of Adam's existence was the Spirit which is the likeness of the Father. The Father God is total spirit and invisible to the celestial and terrestrial creation. That Spirit is called the Father's likeness. This is explained when Moses wrote ---
Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Spirit God breathed into the image and it became a living celestial soul. Where you did not understand Torah is that the soul is the Spirit and is the only portion that lives forever. Not the terrestrial body. The terrestrial body is nothing but the house for the celestial soul. As God breathed a portion of His celestial existence into that image it then obtained a celestial soul. Had nothing to do with Adam breathing air into his lungs. Adam then had a celestial soul and the spark of life for the terrestrial image to function. The terrestrial body is fed nutrients and as it dies the spirit (soul) lives on and in resurrection is given a spiritual body.

When a woman conceives, she is an incubator for the image to develop but also there is that spark of life and a spirit to consider. Not just the image. Even in the womb that terrestrial body is breathing through its very substance. This is explained as liquid breathing or like perfluorocarbon. It soon develops a heart that can be heard and movement that can be felt but nevertheless has the celestial soul and spark of life living in that image. As the image comes out of that womb it still has that same spark of life and spirit that it had in the womb. How can we prove this to our satisfaction? As Mary was conceived by the Holy Spirit, the child (fetus) had a spark of life and terrestrial image and the likeness (celestial spirit) already in progress. In fact the child was already named.

You are under the misconception that man became a living spirit (soul) through breathing this atmosphere when in fact man had the spark of life and spirit in the womb. To show this more clearly let us understand that when this terrestrial image ceases to function and can no longer breath this atmosphere then both image and soul does not die. If you were correct then as the image dies and can no longer breath that breath of atmosphere then the entire existence perishes. You should understand that breathing the gas of atmosphere does nothing for the spirit (soul) except to keep it's house functioning.

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Before man became a living spirit (soul), he had no celestial existence whatsoever but you must also remember that this was the creation of mankind and not the reproductive existence of man. Note two distinct things that are taught here. 1= God formed man (image) -- 2= then He gave the image a spirit (soul). -----

Now we have one question left. Adam got his body and spirit but what about the ones after Adam? We can understand how the body is conceived but what about the soul? Can the body function with out the soul? Not according to Genesis 2:7. Adam's image lay as a lifeless clod till God gave him a spirit (soul). But Adam did not breath till after the soul told the image to breath. The spirit is not in the atmosphere. To prove this we can take a image which has ceased to function anymore, through old age or whatever, and put that image on life support. Does that mean that the soul is in the breath of atmosphere and will give the image life? Of course not. That image has to have the spark of life which is reserved by God as His own secret.

When anyone commits abortion that act destroys the image of that existence and is taught by Moses as killing or destroying that image. Even though that act destroys the image it does not destroy the spirit (soul) but it does deprive the soul from developing its consciousness. That, according to God, is not my right and is reserved for His own pleasure or displeasure.

TextHow do you know? All you know is there are writings and you believe what you've been told they mean?

reply to post by Annee


For one who has stepped out of the God circle you were the one who ranted scriptures from your original blog. To help you understand where I was coming from, let me admit that you are correct in that it is writings of men which I based my premise. But it was also the very same writings that you based your premise. Therefore we were on the same page at the onset but now you have changed the rules to tell me that your premise was untrue from the onset. You now say that the great burden of guilt has been lifted from you by denying the same scriptures that you based your abortion rights. In other words you were trying to use the Holy Scriptures when in fact you had no belief in the very source that you propagated to excuse murder. That is very dishonest to say the least.

Originally posted by Seede

@ PurpleChiten

Once again you have not understood Torah. According to Torah, Adam was created in two distinct portions. The first portion of his existence came when he was created in the terrestrial image of the celestial Father. That terrestrial image was the celestial "Word" who is the image of the Father. The second portion of Adam's existence was the Spirit which is the likeness of the Father. The Father God is total spirit and invisible to the celestial and terrestrial creation. That Spirit is called the Father's likeness.

All you are doing is stating what you have been taught by man.

Purple is presenting a different interpretation.

Below is an interpretation of man's writings. But it is interpreted from the perception we are Energy Beings - - not of the physical - - but experiencing the physical.

Point being - - - physical is not sentient without the Energy Consciousness (soul) which must choose when it enter the physical host. Human is not sentient until first breath.

If you think you are the person whose reflection you see in the mirror, then you are a stranger to your true self, and have made yourself part of the illusion of this world. With great wisdom Yeshua/Jesus is quoted in The Books of the Savior, also known as Pistis Sophia (Faith-Wisdom): "Do not cease seeking day or night, and do not let yourselves relax until you have found all the Mysteries of the Kingdom of Light, which will purify you and make you into Pure Light and lead you into the Kingdom of Light."

And of the transformation of the physical body Jesus said: "Do not desist from seeking by day and by night, until you find the purifying mysteries of the light, which refine the body of matter and make it a pure light very refined." beingoflight.brotherofyeshua.com...

reply to post by Seede


Wow! Very well done! Wish I could give you many more stars.

Originally posted by Seede

TextHow do you know? All you know is there are writings and you believe what you've been told they mean?

reply to post by Annee

 

For one who has stepped out of the God circle you were the one who ranted scriptures from your original blog.

Really?

Show me this rant.

Originally posted by gnosticagnostic

um.. because your sister was an 8 month old baby who could breath maybe... who could sustain life from the womb.. puhlease.. let me guess you've never had a child... your sister had fully developed pieces and parts that functioned.

i've read your other post so there is no reason to debate with you... my child was a fetus.. I would gladly show you the difference

edit on 13-11-2012 by gnosticagnostic because: (no reason given)

And a fetus breathes through the amniotic fluid... A fetus is fed through the mother, just like a new born baby is feed by the breasts of the mother... They are the same thing, the only difference is one is a bit more developed than the other, just like you are more developed physically than a new born baby, or a 2 year old child...

Are you going to claim that because you are more physically, and maybe even mentally developed than a newborn baby, or a two year old child that they are not human?...

Of course you wouldn't try to debate people like me... You have no real counter-argument to speak of...

Originally posted by Annee
...
Point being - - - physical is not sentient without the Energy Consciousness (soul) which must choose when it enter the physical host. Human is not sentient until first breath.

...

There are MANY grown people, and even children who need some sort of breathing apparatus to live, but otherwise can function. Are you going to claim as well that because these people can't breathe on their own they are not human or don't have a spirit?...

Spirit/energy and matter are intrinsic... Perhaps you have heard about the wave/particle duality in electrons?...

Matter cannot exist without energy. Most people don't remember being in their mother's womb, but hypnotic regressions have been successful in making people remember as they were in their mother's womb...

Why do you think that doctors tell mothers not to be in any situation that causes a lot of stress, or discord/arguing when being pregnant?...

Most people might not remember conciously about what they heard, or felt in their mother's womb, but your subconcious experienced all of it, which might trigger phobias, or some other problems for the baby...

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse

And a fetus breathes through the amniotic fluid... A fetus is fed through the mother, just like a new born baby is feed by the breasts of the mother... They are the same thing, . .

NO - they are not the same.

A fetus is a parasite. It lives off its host.

A new born baby is independent of the mother. The mother is not required for the baby to live.

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse

Originally posted by Annee
...
Point being - - - physical is not sentient without the Energy Consciousness (soul) which must choose when it enter the physical host. Human is not sentient until first breath.

...

There are MANY grown people, and even children who need some sort of breathing apparatus to live, but otherwise can function. Are you going to claim as well that because these people can't breathe on their own they are not human?...

I'm sorry - - but that is not a realistic argument.

Originally posted by Annee

NO - they are not the same.

A fetus is a parasite. It lives off its host.

A new born baby is independent of the mother. The mother is not required for the baby to live.

The only parasites are people like you... There are grown people, and even children that live off other people's hard work... Should they be seen as a parasite as well?...

Every wellfare mother then is a parasite according to you... Every person that needs to use services paid by tax dollars which other people paid are also parasites if we follow your thinking...