A Possible Solution To Finally Put Roswell To Rest Sans UFO/Aliens

Quote from 'The Shrike':

"Never mind what I say, which I seem to repeat ad nauseaum. Go to the original reports."

Would that be "Flying disc found on ranch?"

Originally posted by Ectoplasm8

Originally posted by anomalie
Too many here claiming to be sceptics but all im seeing is pseudo scepticism.. a real sceptic is not bias nor do they go about looking for anything and everything to support their own beliefs.
The OP is just whining about 'believers' which makes it difficult to read his post if you got anything of value then say it and stop whinging and maybe i'll take you seriously.

There's no one more bias, close-minded and one sided about this case than the believers. If you are to give a true honest opinion about Roswell, you need to not only read books/articles/videos that support the claims, but also the ones that don't.

Not everyone here is a believer nor is anyone asking you to believe UFO/Alien story. I agree you should atleast consider both sides of the argument.

Originally posted by Ectoplasm8

There isn't a need to search for "anything and everything" to validate my thoughts, nor is there for anyone else that doesn't believe a UFO crashed. Show us the physical item from this case that can be scientifically studied and proven not to be from earth and created by an alien race, and we'll believe. It's really that simple. We don't need any support system for this claim because after 65 years of stories, not one ounce of alien material has shown up. That's a 100% fact.

Now you just being silly you know very well no one can produce evidence youre asking for..if they could there would be no argument..shall we all just forget about the events of Roswelll and the entire subject of Ufology for that matter ?...going by your logic theres nothing to discuss.

Originally posted by Jay-morris

Originally posted by Ectoplasm8

Originally posted by anomalie
Too many here claiming to be sceptics but all im seeing is pseudo scepticism.. a real sceptic is not bias nor do they go about looking for anything and everything to support their own beliefs.

The OP is just whining about 'believers' which makes it difficult to read his post if you got anything of value then say it and stop whinging and maybe i'll take you seriously.

There's no one more bias, close-minded and one sided about this case than the believers. If you are to give a true honest opinion about Roswell, you need to not only read books/articles/videos that support the claims, but also the ones that don't.

There isn't a need to search for "anything and everything" to validate my thoughts, nor is there for anyone else that doesn't believe a UFO crashed. Show us the physical item from this case that can be scientifically studied and proven not to be from earth and created by an alien race, and we'll believe. It's really that simple. We don't need any support system for this claim because after 65 years of stories, not one ounce of alien material has shown up. That's a 100% fact.

It annoys me because if you say you
dont believe the official story, then instantly people assume you believe that
it was et. Again, the de bunkers belief system

Agreed theyre not sceptics as they claim to be but debunkers and if you disagree with them then youre blind believer who ignores all the facts - thats my problem with some of the posters here. No physical evidence of crash or alien bodies we might as well throw the whole subject of ufology in the bin and not discuss at all.

You want to accept the words of charlatans, be my guest.

reply to post by The Shrike


Or alternatively believe the words of chief charlatan and conjurer of completely baseless accusations; Phillip J Klass.

Originally posted by anomalie

Now you just being silly you know very well no one can produce evidence youre asking for..if they could there would be no argument..shall we all just forget about the events of Roswelll and the entire subject of Ufology for that matter ?...going by your logic theres nothing to discuss.

Going by my logic, or anyone that's scientifically minded, the subject shouldn't be taken as seriously as it has. Discuss it all you want, but don't argue the point as if it's a proven fact. The only proven fact in this case is, after 65 years, there hasn't been an ounce of physical proof to back up any claim.

Roswell is the perfect story for people that believe alien beings visit earth. With absolutely no proof that we've been visited by anything ever, it's convenient to have a story like Roswell. Everything is shrouded in secrets and conspiracies. Nothing has to be proven because you can't prove it! The damn government/military is hiding all the facts, so of course we have no way of getting in there and showing all you non-believers what "really" happened. Unfortunately because of that type of thinking, this story will go on forever with more and more generations falling prey to this ridiculous mindset.

I can't understand why something that would be as extraordinary as an alien race coming to earth is so easily accepted from stories. People continue to undermine and trivialize the enormity of an event such as alien visitation. They speak in terms as it's probably happened, with ZERO proof that it has. I find it incredibly naive to give the benefit of the doubt to a story like Roswell based not on physical facts, but on stories.

reply to post by Ectoplasm8


Ok, so by your logic, if someone had said in 1990 "Yeah, the government have got this big black V shaped aircraft, its invisible to radar, has no tail, you cant see one at any air bases and they dont officially exist because they are secret" and you would disregard this as fiction because he couldnt 'prove' it- and yet the first B2 Spirit flew in 1982.

People who described seeing the F117 were written off as fantasist nut-jobs until the USAAF officially introduced them to the public, but you would have had a hard time 'proving' one before TPTB were good and ready to let us all know about them.

Im sure therea all sorts of exotic technology in black programs that we dont know about, but that doesnt mean they dont exist- its called secret for a reason......

reply to post by The Shrike


Five words more than deserved.

Originally posted by Thunda
reply to post by Ectoplasm8

 

Ok, so by your logic, if someone had said in 1990 "Yeah, the government have got this big black V shaped aircraft, its invisible to radar, has no tail, you cant see one at any air bases and they dont officially exist because they are secret" and you would disregard this as fiction because he couldnt 'prove' it- and yet the first B2 Spirit flew in 1982.

People who described seeing the F117 were written off as fantasist nut-jobs until the USAAF officially introduced them to the public, but you would have had a hard time 'proving' one before TPTB were good and ready to let us all know about them.

Im sure therea all sorts of exotic technology in black programs that we dont know about, but that doesnt mean they dont exist- its called secret for a reason......

No, if someone said they had seen a V-shaped aircraft flying around the desert that's invisible to radar and has no tail and could be military, I would think I guess it's possible the military has created something like that. If someone else said they saw a V-shaped aircraft that was invisible to radar and had no tail and it had to be from outer space, I'm not going to seriously consider it could be from outer space. See the difference there? You're taking my specific statement about Roswell/UFOs/Aliens and incorrectly making it into an over all general statement.

Your comment is not even a realistic comparison. You're taking human made objects and relating it to an alien spacecraft and alien beings. Human made objects are a given and factual. So, of course there could be covert programs by the government making secret aircraft. Alien craft however, have not been proven to be real. So, it's not even relatable on the same level. One is factual, one is still fantasy at this point.

Originally posted by anomalie
snip
Not everyone here is a believer nor is anyone asking you to believe UFO/Alien story. I agree you should atleast consider both sides of the argument.
snip
Now you just being silly you know very well no one can produce evidence youre asking for..if they could there would be no argument..shall we all just forget about the events of Roswelll and the entire subject of Ufology for that matter ?...going by your logic theres nothing to discuss.

I would guess that 95% of the members who attend to this forum are believers, really gullible believers. Just look at the titles of the threads.

The evidence for Roswell was produced in 1947 but the believers don't want to accept it 'cause it ruins their need for UFO fantasy. It would be great to forget about Roswell but, unfortunately, Roswell is akin to the alleged birth of Jesus. No historical evidence but in almost every documentary it is used as a milestone. In UFOlogy Roswell is a milestone and as long as it is paraded someone has to tell the paraders that the parade is over.

There is nothing to discuss so please burn all of the pro-UFO Roswell bs books and tell Stanton Friedman and his charlatan buddies that still push it to do UFOlogy a favor and go away.

Originally posted by anomalie

Agreed theyre not sceptics as they claim to be but debunkers and if you disagree with them then youre blind believer who ignores all the facts - thats my problem with some of the posters here. No physical evidence of crash or alien bodies we might as well throw the whole subject of ufology in the bin and not discuss at all.

edit on 15-11-2012 by anomalie because: (no reason given)

Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater! First, believers don't require evidence, their minds are made up against logic. Skeptics and debunkers are necessary othewise we would be overrun with believers and someone has to keep them in line. Not all skeptics are the enemy, just the close-minded ones. The most famous closed-minded skeptic I can think of is Robert Sheaffer. He doesn't accept anything he hasn't experienced and, in reality, that's the way it should be. Otherwise your life would depend on hearsay and assumptions.

Debunkers do a service for they will challenge claims and provide facts rather than allegations. I'm a a UFO-seeing skeptic and a debunker and you can find my successful debunking threads to understand.

UFOs are real but they are not subject to debate because no one has anything to debate with. All you can do is compare sightings. Nothing more than that.

Originally posted by Thunda
reply to post by Ectoplasm8

 

Ok, so by your logic, if someone had said in 1990 "Yeah, the government have got this big black V shaped aircraft, its invisible to radar, has no tail, you cant see one at any air bases and they dont officially exist because they are secret" and you would disregard this as fiction because he couldnt 'prove' it- and yet the first B2 Spirit flew in 1982.

People who described seeing the F117 were written off as fantasist nut-jobs until the USAAF officially introduced them to the public, but you would have had a hard time 'proving' one before TPTB were good and ready to let us all know about them.

Im sure therea all sorts of exotic technology in black programs that we dont know about, but that doesnt mean they dont exist- its called secret for a reason......

You don't come to the discussion table with a sound grasp of logic. All human aircraft can be identified no matter how fast or how high they fly. All new aircraft goes through the unexplained period because no one has seen them before. But human aircraft do not have the capability to do what real UFOs do. Your conspiracist brain is going to waste. You should have finished high school.

reply to post by The Shrike

Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater! First, believers don't require evidence, their minds are made up against logic. Skeptics and debunkers are necessary othewise we would be overrun with believers and someone has to keep them in line. Not all skeptics are the enemy, just the close-minded ones. The most famous closed-minded skeptic I can think of is Robert Sheaffer. He doesn't accept anything he hasn't experienced and, in reality, that's the way it should be. Otherwise your life would depend on hearsay and assumptions. Debunkers do a service for they will challenge claims and provide facts rather than allegations. I'm a a UFO-seeing skeptic and a debunker and you can find my successful debunking threads to understand. UFOs are real but they are not subject to debate because no one has anything to debate with. All you can do is compare sightings. Nothing more than that.

Skeptics are always good, but debunkers? Debunkers, juat like believers, rely on their belief system. Yes, even debunkers have a belief system shrike. And i have looked at alot of your threads. Nine out of ten, you leave them when the going gets too tough for you.

But i have to ask. Why do you spend so much time doing this? Why should it bother you that their are so many believers out there? Why are you obsessed with trying to tell everyone that you are right, and they are wrong.

Again, i put this down to the debunking religon. Yes, its turned into a cult like religon. We have thousands of debunkers getting together at conferences, just to hear some bloke laugh and joke about believers. I mean, why? What is the point? Life is too short to be obsessed with something that is so, whats the word, pointless!

And i still say that debunkers would hate it if the ET theory in some of these cases were proved to be right. The reason because they simply love doing this. This is the only thing that keeps them going. If they lost that, then they would have pretty much nothing.

Its sad that there are people out there like this, but that is belief for you

Even without Rosewell, there is coverup, there is some non-conventional technology and it is being hidden well. Yes there may be even contact with some other civ. For me this is not belief, it is a possibility which cannot be verified but due to the information existing, cannot be dismissed so quickly.

Experiment of HUMAN THINKING

If I invented something, hid it in the middle of nowhere, restricted the area or better - no one would know of the area's existence - yet someone may have heard or known someone who really saw it - would you believe it? You wouldn't, would that change the fact of its existence? Of course not.

This is where the logic of debunkers/skeptics fails. They are correct to doubt, so do I, but it is incorrect to claim something with certainty of non-existence when some data (often times not proven to be a lie such as in the biggest cases) tells you otherwise.

Originally posted by The Shrike

Originally posted by Thunda
reply to post by Ectoplasm8

 

Ok, so by your logic, if someone had said in 1990 "Yeah, the government have got this big black V shaped aircraft, its invisible to radar, has no tail, you cant see one at any air bases and they dont officially exist because they are secret" and you would disregard this as fiction because he couldnt 'prove' it- and yet the first B2 Spirit flew in 1982.

People who described seeing the F117 were written off as fantasist nut-jobs until the USAAF officially introduced them to the public, but you would have had a hard time 'proving' one before TPTB were good and ready to let us all know about them.

Im sure therea all sorts of exotic technology in black programs that we dont know about, but that doesnt mean they dont exist- its called secret for a reason......

You don't come to the discussion table with a sound grasp of logic. All human aircraft can be identified no matter how fast or how high they fly. All new aircraft goes through the unexplained period because no one has seen them before. But human aircraft do not have the capability to do what real UFOs do. Your conspiracist brain is going to waste. You should have finished high school.

I think you have failed to grasp the point. Ectoplasm was asking about proof- I described a scenario where someone had seen some exotic technology, but couldnt 'prove' it, and asked if that were the case, do you then fail to believe them. You then agree with me with "All new aircraft goes through the unexplained period", but then start talking about what capabilities "real UFO's" have (what would those be then?).

You really are too funny with your generalizations and illogical spats. Finished high school? You have no idea of my qualifications, and you would be eating your words if you did....

Oh, and Im still waiting for you to "Finally Put Roswell To Rest "

Ectoplasm8, since you was good enough to reply its only fair i respond to your comment but unfortunately i have to be brief im just too busy this weekend with folks.

The point i was trying to make with Roswell and other UFO related incidences sometimes all you have eye witness accounts and although this is not considered scientific proof of UFOs or aliens i do believe this a very important factor that should not be overlooked.

The reason why the Roswell story is such a persistent one is apart from the military behaviour at the time and later (1994 and 1997 report) is the sheer number of witnesses that corraborate the story.

You yourself said that we should consider both side of the argument.

Originally posted by Ectoplasm8

Originally posted by anomalie
Too many here claiming to be sceptics but all im seeing is pseudo scepticism.. a real sceptic is not bias nor do they go about looking for anything and everything to support their own beliefs.

The OP is just whining about 'believers' which makes it difficult to read his post if you got anything of value then say it and stop whinging and maybe i'll take you seriously.

There's no one more bias, close-minded and one sided about this case than the believers. If you are to give a true honest opinion about Roswell, you need to not only read books/articles/videos that support the claims, but also the ones that don't.

I find it hard to believe all the Roswell witnesses either misinterpreted or lied about what happened 60 odd years ago and for that reason its not easy to dismiss the Roswell story no matter how fantastic it sounds.

Have a good weekend.

Originally posted by Thunda
snip
I think you have failed to grasp the point. Ectoplasm was asking about proof- I described a scenario where someone had seen some exotic technology, but couldnt 'prove' it, and asked if that were the case, do you then fail to believe them. You then agree with me with "All new aircraft goes through the unexplained period", but then start talking about what capabilities "real UFO's" have (what would those be then?).

You really are too funny with your generalizations and illogical spats. Finished high school? You have no idea of my qualifications, and you would be eating your words if you did....

Oh, and Im still waiting for you to "Finally Put Roswell To Rest "

edit on 17-11-2012 by Thunda because: (no reason given)

You are not really worth a reply but you made laugh with your "You have no idea of my qualifications..." Your qualifications are that you and ascension211, Thunda, Imtor, Jay-morris, chunder, Morg234, and anomalie seem to have attended RAHHS. You and the others are the reason I abandon my own threads for none of you add anything worth replying to. You all share typical mentality. Go bother another thread, there's plenty of jerky Roswell threads where you would be appreciated.

reply to post by The Shrike


My, what a rude little fella you are. So, you only want people who agree with you in your joke of a thread?

Aw, but when you dont get your own way, or someone challenges you, its out with the ad hominem insults. Dont worry, I wont be bothering your pathetic thread again, mainly because it doesnt do what it says- it brings nothing new to the Roswell case, and seems just to be a platform for you to insult people.

Really- if you have something new to add to the case, then lets hear it- it would be my guess its just more of the tired old debunking based on your tiny understanding of the evidence, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. So come on then- put up or shut up- Finally put Roswell to bed.......



..

Originally posted by Jchristopher5
I saw this post and I was hoping that it was from you. No, you have explained nothing about the Roswell mystery. You have, as usual, provided no evidence only your tired brand of skepticism.

Let me go through this again.

1. Our government released press that a flying disk had been captured. According to the man in the center of the press release, Lt. Haut, he believed that it was extraterrestrial. He saw 4' bodies with large heads. He put this in a death bed testimony. Also, the local mortician, Glenn Dennis, said he was asked for child's caskets, from the base.

All of this proves that something unusual crashed, piloted by small beings.

2. Marcel and others testified that the wreckage was of a material unknown to him. Memory metals and rigid Ibeams with strange hieroglyphics. It was seen by his son, and by a couple of dozen others. This was clearly NOT a weather balloon or anything of the sort. In your heart, you know marcel would not have mistaken this material for a balloon. That is silly.

3. The memo held by Ramey is the debris photo is very telling. While it is impossible to make all of it out, phrases like "aviators of the disk" and "balloon PR" jump off the page.

4. The silly Mogel cover, and the later "case closed" on the alien bodies is over the top silliness by the military and government. These dummies were dropped in the 1950s, not in 1947, and this explains what people saw? Wow, I have some land for you if you buy that.

I am not buying the silliness that you are posting here "The Shreck". Roswell remains unexplained, but clearly leans to the ET/ED hypothesis.

bang on
id like to rant on to THE OP but id get banned for life (he does my head in)
a star for you thou my friend *

reply to post by The Shrike


quickly breath

Interesting thread....a weather balloon...hmmmm....

The Shrike, your theory could hold water if it wasn't for one small overlooked detail: Why oh why would the military close off the area to recover a weather balloon???

Were weather balloons so extraordinary that the military - like regular folks as you mentioned - would have a hard time identifying it???

Really??

I would accept a russian secret prototype crashing down or a german secret plane or even a U.F.O...but a weather balloon?? Disinforming much???

Wow...just wow.