Why do we condemn the nazis when America has committed equally evil deeds?

Originally posted by projectvxn

Originally posted by lobotomizemecapin
reply to post by projectvxn

 

right....

And I'm sure your opinions are so infallible.

It's not opinion. It's a matter of facts. You need to have those first before you are in the position to twist them into an opinion.

First arm yourself with the facts. Then come back and see where the civil war fits into this ridiculous thread of yours.

Weren't you for a time a moderator for this site?

I recall reading threads in past about struggles to obtain legal status in this country, or those of your parents, and do correct me if I am wrong. Cuban refugee's correct?

While I am sure you had to study quite a bit, how does this make you an expert, to say such a thing here?

Originally posted by 200Plus
it's not an american bashing thread, but you start by comparing us to nazi germany? Yea, OK.

Lets skip colonial France.
Let's skip colonial England.
Lets's skip colonial Spain.
Let's skip inter-tribal wars in africa.
Let's skip the conquests of the muslim nations.
Lets skip the inter-tribal warfare of America's indig population.

Let's just compare america to nazi germany. makes perfect sense.

Does germany allow jews to live a tax free life?
Does germany give jews a college education?
Does germany have holidays for jewish heritage?

There is no such thing as a native american. All humans migrated to the continent at on time or another. The indig population that european explorers found were not even the first of the migration people.

Wow talk about getting hot over a simple question

The point of this thread was to point out that the US is no better than the rest of the world

everywhere on earth has a dark history and I was only pointing that out

War and genocide are not ok anywhere and the US is just as guilty as the rest of the world even those with the darkest history

reply to post by Sinny

Does your fear come from your attitude or T&Cs?

reply to post by Sissel

Weren't you for a time a moderator for this site?

What does that have to do with the subject or my discussion with the OP on his apparent lack of knowledge of the Civil War?

I recall reading threads in past about struggles to obtain legal status in this country, or those of your parents, and do correct me if I am wrong. Cuban refugee's correct?

What does that have to do with the subject or my discussion with the OP on his apparent lack of knowledge of the Civil War?

While I am sure you had to study quite a bit, how does this make you an expert, to say such a thing here?

I never claimed to be an expert. I do however study history intently. And the facts do not jive with his opinion.

As an outsider looking in it seems to me that generally speaking we see two types of Americans here on ATS - the chest beating, jingoistic, all-Americans who believe the Hollywood hype and bull and can see no wrong in anything American or it's foreign policy etc and those consumed with self-hate who believe the USA is the Devil incarnate and responsible for all the world's ills.

I suspect the truth is somewhere inbetween.

Yes, the USA has been, and continues to be, responsible for some atrocities, (which country hasn't at some point in their history), and it's foreign policy in particular seems to be one of self-interest regardless of the resultant tragedy and human cost.

But not everything about it is negative.
It has provided a safe haven for many of the world's disadvantaged and victimised.
It has helped develop many of the great technological advancements we all enjoy.

The list of pro's and con's could be never ending.

There are many things wrong with US society, and there is much to be admired.

The US needs to learn a sense of perspective, to put things in context and realise that for better or worse the world doesn't revolve around the USA - whether it thrives or dies the rest of the world will continue regardless.

Self-hate and self-idolisation are two sides of the same coin and both could consume the USA - as it can people.

Just some personal thoughts and observations for what little they are worth.

Why do we condemn the nazis when America has committed equally evil deeds?

Because we won the war that's why. It's pretty simple really. The losers are always the bad guys.

The history books talk about people like Hammurabi and Mohammad like they're freaking white-hat wearing cowboys, when they raped and pillaged just as much as the barbarian hordes.

Nothing's changed in 4000 years

Originally posted by projectvxn
reply to post by Sissel

 

Weren't you for a time a moderator for this site?

What does that have to do with the subject or my discussion with the OP on his apparent lack of knowledge of the Civil War?

I recall reading threads in past about struggles to obtain legal status in this country, or those of your parents, and do correct me if I am wrong. Cuban refugee's correct?

What does that have to do with the subject or my discussion with the OP on his apparent lack of knowledge of the Civil War?

While I am sure you had to study quite a bit, how does this make you an expert, to say such a thing here?

I never claimed to be an expert. I do however study history intently. And the facts do not jive with his opinion.

Having words written in a book does not make it fact. A lie told a million times is still a lie.

Tell me how do your facts just inherently trump my opinion? Im sure I could find just as many facts to refute them

either way it is still the government sending the poor to kill americans and the rich sending the poor and stupid to kill each other.

how is that not comparable to hitler waging war on his own citizens?

reply to post by lobotomizemecapin

Having words written in a book does not make it fact. A lie told a million times is still a lie.

Opinion making for the sake of it does not validate your position.

Tell me how do your facts just inherently trump my opinion? Im sure I could find just as many facts to refute them

Facts and opinions aren't the same thing.

If you could I would love it if you did come up with some facts.

either way it is still the government sending the poor to kill americans and the rich sending the poor and stupid to kill each other.

Again, you are basing this opinion on a substrate of erroneous information, or no information at all. Both sides sacrificed so much, the effects of which reverberate through history and affect our nation today.

how is that not comparable to hitler waging war on his own citizens?

Because context is everything.

reply to post by VeniVidi

At the time, most of the United States was made up of white European settlers.

Irrelevant.

At the time the US had been an independant nation for up to 100 odd years.

I thought the whole point of your revolution was to be responsible for your own actions and masters of your own destiny?

Predictably though you seek to apportion blame elsewhere when the facts are uncomfortable.

Originally posted by projectvxn
reply to post by Sissel

 

Weren't you for a time a moderator for this site?

What does that have to do with the subject or my discussion with the OP on his apparent lack of knowledge of the Civil War?

I recall reading threads in past about struggles to obtain legal status in this country, or those of your parents, and do correct me if I am wrong. Cuban refugee's correct?

What does that have to do with the subject or my discussion with the OP on his apparent lack of knowledge of the Civil War?

While I am sure you had to study quite a bit, how does this make you an expert, to say such a thing here?

I never claimed to be an expert. I do however study history intently. And the facts do not jive with his opinion.

It has a lot to do with it. You are attempting to kill a thread, based on your own personal experiences...and not letting the thread flow as it should.

I appreciate and remember your experiences, and you.
So, if your point is to tell somebody they need to study more, after your experiences, perhaps you could do so, in a non less confronting way. I always appreciated when you would take the time to express your experiences in a much more honest, and less unconfrontational manner.

I know you have a lot to offer in your past experiences..........so please guide people to explore the issue.........

Thanks...

reply to post by lobotomizemecapin


LoL I am not hot at all, I am sorry my post came across that way.

Indeed america has a dark and evil history (same as any country in the world). I am not sure anyone can argue against that.

America's evils have mostly been for financial reasons (IMO), where germany commited evil on racial grounds.

reply to post by projectvxn


So your saying that because the south wanted to break away as their right from a government that was assuming more power than they were suppose to have it was ok for them to wage war to take the states back?

No their is just no justification when there were alternative routes that could have been worked out. There was a lot for the confederacy to be pissed about and they wanted to not be ruled by the power hungry politicians.

reply to post by Sissel

It has a lot to do with it.

No it doesn't. This thread nor my challenges to the OP have anything to do with me personally.

You are attempting to kill a thread, based on your own personal experiences...and not letting the thread flow as it should.

Whether the thread lives or dies has nothing to do with me. My "personal experiences" in the context in which you ascribe has nothing to do with this discussion.

So, if your point is to tell somebody they need to study more, after your experiences, perhaps you could do so, in a non less confronting way.

Why should I hold someone's hand? Presumably this person is an adult, and can handle a bit a criticism. If not this person would not be posting on ATS which is a discussion forum where people debate subjects. My experiences in the context in which you ascribe have nothing to do with this either. I'm still trying to find your point...Not seeing it.

I always appreciated when you would take the time to express your experiences in a much more honest, and less unconfrontational manner.

I always express myself honestly. But people who choose to willfully ignore context in favor of an opinion that is based on nothing because what's written in books is apparently a lie deserve no quarter when challenged on their assertions.

You make an opinion for all to dissect and someone is surprised when it is challenged? Again I'm not here to hold someone's hand. This is big boy/big girl stuff.

I too have been challenged. I've down right been insulted on ATS for my views, for who I am, and for what I do. I defend them to the best of my knowledge and ability, and if I'm wrong I admit it. Because I'm a grown man.

reply to post by lobotomizemecapin

No their is just no justification when there were alternative routes that could have been worked out. There was a lot for the confederacy to be pissed about and they wanted to not be ruled by the power hungry politicians.

You ever read the Confederate Constitution?

You should.

Originally posted by projectvxn


I always express myself honestly. But people who choose to willfully ignore context in favor of an opinion that is based on nothing because what's written in books is apparently a lie deserve no quarter when challenged on their assertions.

You make an opinion for all to dissect and someone is surprised when it is challenged? Again I'm not here to hold someone's hand. This is big boy/big girl stuff.

I too have been challenged. I've down right been insulted on ATS for my views, for who I am, and for what I do. I defend them to the best of my knowledge and ability, and if I'm wrong I admit it. Because I'm a grown man.

I am sorry, because I don't want to get off topic here, but that is not my opinion based on some of the responses that I have seen you make not only in this thread, but in others.

You seem to defend things that have nothing to do with topics, and this is one of them. You are referring to civil war crap that has nothing to do with Nazi's.

Every major country has genocide on their hands which is very much what the Nazi's did. Was it such a hit in history like what the Nazi's did to Jews? Yes, it is. Yes it was, and yes, it is still going on. It pertains to Ethnic cleansing, and if you haven't studied that in your gaining admittance to the US, then only you are responsible for your head being in the sand.

This thread is not a personal affront to you, and what you have been through, although I am sure it has been rough for you and yours.

You are a bit jaded, my friend. Don't cut your nose off to spite yourself, and your beliefs.

reply to post by Sissel

You seem to defend things that have nothing to do with topics, and this is one of them. You are referring to civil war crap that has nothing to do with Nazi's.

From the OP:

So the thread is just a question

The US has committed heinous crimes against the native americans

the US has committed heinous crimes against their own brothers and country men during the civil war

Bold added for emphasis.

You were saying?

These kinds of threads reveal how people have no single clue of world history. It also shows me that we have no real understanding or concept of american history either. I saw a few comments that were on point, like the excerpts below :

Genocide is genocide. Happens all throughout history all over the world. My guess as to why we get a pass here in the US

Im sick of the overly patriotic, blind fools who are twisted to the point that they feel the US is the holy messiah in the history books

(that one was great to me)

and there was one more I cant find about the U.S. being a kennel for the nazi dog or something like that. I liked that one too.


But, this kind of thinking is absurd, but I respect your opinion.

If you hate America, you are free to leave here. Y'know, 'cuz you're totally free to do that kinda stuff here.

There were actually Native Americans murdering white people too. Not that i blame them. Native Americans were considered sub-human in those days so they got run over.

They were doing it too, really??? They defended themselves, they did NOT pretend to befriend the invaders I mean traitors, I mean traders from European countries. They did not plot against upon arrival.
Another thing here that disgust me, is the cover up and complete ignorance of the plight of so called African-Americans. I bet many of you have never studied the Tulsa race riots, the thousands of people that were viewed as guinea pigs, the raping of women and children, the slaughtering of babies in pregnant women stomachs, unfair trials and the lynching that followed, being burned alive( which occured this month because of the color of someones skin), and a whole slew of atrocities that I could make a thread about.
youtu.be..." target="_blank" class="postlink">youtu.be...

My point is, there are chapters in the U.S. history that will never see the light of day, but some have. It bothers me to read people say Indian this and Native American that(which is okay to an extent because wrong is wrong) like they are completely ignorant of the far more disgusting past and facts that happened on this soil. The indigenous populations from the West were removed one way or another, which is atrocious, but I can think of a couple of hundred things that they never experienced.
For the record I am not on the pity pot, I think if we are going to compare dark times for the sake of the topic and argument lets mention the REAL cold-blooded facts.

I honestly did NOT want to go down that avenue, but I thought it was appropriate just because of the lack of awareness or maybe the blatant ignorance. At the end of the day WRONG IS WRONG. I keep reading well "they" did it too, and so did they, and them too. SOOOO WHAT that doesn't make anyone better. WRONG IS WRONG and once you see it that way everything sits in its proper place. Why do we condemn this nation while that country did this......blah blah blah. Wrong is wrong, I don't care if its in the middle east, from Spain, inter-tribal wars, nazis, or anyone else. At the end of the day I agree we have committed equal deeds but that does not mean the noose shall be loosened on the nazis or anyone else for that matter. Think outside of the box I am able to condemn them both.
My views expressed above are not here to offend anyone. Peace and Blessings.....
sry for typos.

Originally posted by projectvxn
reply to post by Sissel

 

You seem to defend things that have nothing to do with topics, and this is one of them. You are referring to civil war crap that has nothing to do with Nazi's.

From the OP:

So the thread is just a question

The US has committed heinous crimes against the native americans

the US has committed heinous crimes against their own brothers and country men during the civil war

Bold added for emphasis.

You were saying?

Whatever, I took it as meaning since the civil war....and as I said, it's ongoing.

Originally posted by projectvxn
reply to post by Sissel

 

You seem to defend things that have nothing to do with topics, and this is one of them. You are referring to civil war crap that has nothing to do with Nazi's.

From the OP:

So the thread is just a question

The US has committed heinous crimes against the native americans

the US has committed heinous crimes against their own brothers and country men during the civil war

Bold added for emphasis.

You were saying?

Are you saying waging war using the poor against parts of your own country is not a heinous crime?

because it is

Originally posted by lobotomizemecapin
So the thread is just a question

The US has committed heinous crimes against the native americans

the US has committed heinous crimes against their own brothers and country men during the civil war

and these are just two examples

The nazis tried to destroy all the jews

The US tried to kill all the natives.


What the hell makes us so much better from the rest of the world?

Um.. this thread is aweful, and here's why:

We got into a "fight" with native americans

Japan attacked us first.

The civil war was a "war"....



What did the Jews, Gypsies and other minorities do in Germany?

They existed. They where killed for existing.

I'm not saying other countries don't commit genocide's, but you cannot compare a genocide to a war. Completely different.